ATPL feedback Q's (Merged x 4)
Join Date: May 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Squirrel Cage...
Quick Question 
The squirrel motor in a tacho indicator is driven......
1)....directly by the engine.
2)....driven by the 3 phase AC current from a tacho-gen driven by the engine.
Have been told its 1) but I thought it was 2)!!
Thanks!
The squirrel motor in a tacho indicator is driven......
1)....directly by the engine.
2)....driven by the 3 phase AC current from a tacho-gen driven by the engine.
Have been told its 1) but I thought it was 2)!!
Thanks!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who up there said they wouldn't want to fly with a pilot who only knew 75% of the syllabus ??
LOL... grab any four-striper who's been in the LHS for a while and ask them these questions being posted and you will obtain a reaction ranging from bemused to utter contempt. This is more the kind of question that should be asked...
Q) You arrive downroute at a particularly expensive destination. After changing into shorts and a t-shirt, you meet the captain at the bar. Your opening line of conversation is :
a) Well, you earn tonnes more than me Captain Smith, so it's your damn round again.
b) I'd like to stay and chat about your amazing career, Captain, but I need an early night.
c) Isn't that the girl from AirX who wanted your help with her room key last week boss ?
or
d) What an amazing flight, approach and landing that was. I am in awe of your skills and can only hope to lick the crumbs from the inemptiable bowl of your talent. Of course it's my round again.
A much more practical and career-focused paper
Seriously, folks, they are hoops. Important hoops, but you jump through them. You learn your out-of-date and (mostly) irrelevant facts, pass the exams, forget 95% of them, and retain the theory that is important to your well-being in everyday flying. You then apply that theory to real-life commercial flying as appropriate.
Rain-ice... need to know. Squirrel motors ? LMAO (And sorry, if I knew the answer I would post it. You will almosttcertainly ditch this kind of information when your first type-ratingground-school is occupying your attention).
Best of luck to all of you engaged in hoop-leaping.
(Cynical, I know - perhaps the JAR exams have changed since the days of the CAA ones. Perhaps I will cleared for take off after the landing pig next week !)
LOL... grab any four-striper who's been in the LHS for a while and ask them these questions being posted and you will obtain a reaction ranging from bemused to utter contempt. This is more the kind of question that should be asked...
Q) You arrive downroute at a particularly expensive destination. After changing into shorts and a t-shirt, you meet the captain at the bar. Your opening line of conversation is :
a) Well, you earn tonnes more than me Captain Smith, so it's your damn round again.
b) I'd like to stay and chat about your amazing career, Captain, but I need an early night.
c) Isn't that the girl from AirX who wanted your help with her room key last week boss ?
or
d) What an amazing flight, approach and landing that was. I am in awe of your skills and can only hope to lick the crumbs from the inemptiable bowl of your talent. Of course it's my round again.
A much more practical and career-focused paper
Seriously, folks, they are hoops. Important hoops, but you jump through them. You learn your out-of-date and (mostly) irrelevant facts, pass the exams, forget 95% of them, and retain the theory that is important to your well-being in everyday flying. You then apply that theory to real-life commercial flying as appropriate.
Rain-ice... need to know. Squirrel motors ? LMAO (And sorry, if I knew the answer I would post it. You will almosttcertainly ditch this kind of information when your first type-ratingground-school is occupying your attention).
Best of luck to all of you engaged in hoop-leaping.
(Cynical, I know - perhaps the JAR exams have changed since the days of the CAA ones. Perhaps I will cleared for take off after the landing pig next week !)
Last edited by El Desperado; 24th May 2002 at 00:24.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hear hear El Desparado. I've not long passed the instruments paper and a) can not remember the answer to the squirrel cage question and more importantly b) certainly have no desire to remember it.
Hoops, pure and simple, with a relatively small percentage that will come in handy for type ratings and line flying I suspect.
Hoops, pure and simple, with a relatively small percentage that will come in handy for type ratings and line flying I suspect.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
El Desperado and GonvilleBromhead,
I hear what you're saying. And, if you continue the argument a bit further, we actually agree on the fundamentals. I guess, after thinking about your comments, what I probably mean is that I wouldn't want to fly with a pilot who was only capable of learning 75% of the syllabus.
I did a degree in Software Engineering. In the years I've been working in the IT industry, I've never once had to use anything that I learnt on the compilers course, or the graphics course, or the speech recognition course.
However, for the exams in these subjects, I not only needed to know the syllabus for the course - I also needed to use my brain. The graphics course taught me the equations for drawing straight lines, curves, etc on a computer screen. The exam gave me real-life scenarios, which I hadn't encountered during my studies, and forced me to apply my knowledge to these scenarios to determine how best to draw something new. Likewise, the image processing exam presented me with scenarios I hadn't encountered before, and asked which image processing techniques could best be used in these scenarios.
I now work in the financial markets industry. I have had very little training in financial markets, but it's the skills (not the knowledge) which I gained at university which enable me to adapt my previous IT experience and use it in the financial markets industry.
(This, by the way, is in complete contrast to the Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc. certification exams, which are purely knowledge-based, and could be passed by any monkey with a sufficiently good memory. When I'm recruiting, I will always ignore any of these technology-specific "qualifications", because I know that all the information candidates will have learnt on the course is available in industry-standard text-books. It's intelligence, and not just knowledge, which will get people a job working for me.)
Of course student pilots are going to forget most of the syllabus as soon as they walk out of the exam. Unlike IT, remembering some things is quite important, because there are times when you don't have access to, or time to refer to, text books. But when people want a list of all the exam questions before they go into the exam, they are asking for the ATPL to be turned into a Microsoft-style exam, rather than a test of intelligence.
Unlike the IT equivalent, there are reasons why pilots might need to know what a rain-ice triangle is after the exam - if they fly into one and need to get out, for example - although there are plenty of questions out there on subjects which there is no reason why a pilot would need to remember. But it is taking the knowledge you have, and proving that you can apply it to new situations, which is what you are being asked to do when you encounter questions on subjects which are not directly covered by the syllabus.
As for the question: it would be a very enthusiastic captain who would fly the whole of the flight, approach and landing - surely he would "allow" the F/O to do the more boring parts of the flight such as programming that auto-pilot en-route. So that immediately rules out D. I'd go for C.
FFF
-----------
I hear what you're saying. And, if you continue the argument a bit further, we actually agree on the fundamentals. I guess, after thinking about your comments, what I probably mean is that I wouldn't want to fly with a pilot who was only capable of learning 75% of the syllabus.
I did a degree in Software Engineering. In the years I've been working in the IT industry, I've never once had to use anything that I learnt on the compilers course, or the graphics course, or the speech recognition course.
However, for the exams in these subjects, I not only needed to know the syllabus for the course - I also needed to use my brain. The graphics course taught me the equations for drawing straight lines, curves, etc on a computer screen. The exam gave me real-life scenarios, which I hadn't encountered during my studies, and forced me to apply my knowledge to these scenarios to determine how best to draw something new. Likewise, the image processing exam presented me with scenarios I hadn't encountered before, and asked which image processing techniques could best be used in these scenarios.
I now work in the financial markets industry. I have had very little training in financial markets, but it's the skills (not the knowledge) which I gained at university which enable me to adapt my previous IT experience and use it in the financial markets industry.
(This, by the way, is in complete contrast to the Microsoft, Oracle, Sun, etc. certification exams, which are purely knowledge-based, and could be passed by any monkey with a sufficiently good memory. When I'm recruiting, I will always ignore any of these technology-specific "qualifications", because I know that all the information candidates will have learnt on the course is available in industry-standard text-books. It's intelligence, and not just knowledge, which will get people a job working for me.)
Of course student pilots are going to forget most of the syllabus as soon as they walk out of the exam. Unlike IT, remembering some things is quite important, because there are times when you don't have access to, or time to refer to, text books. But when people want a list of all the exam questions before they go into the exam, they are asking for the ATPL to be turned into a Microsoft-style exam, rather than a test of intelligence.
Unlike the IT equivalent, there are reasons why pilots might need to know what a rain-ice triangle is after the exam - if they fly into one and need to get out, for example - although there are plenty of questions out there on subjects which there is no reason why a pilot would need to remember. But it is taking the knowledge you have, and proving that you can apply it to new situations, which is what you are being asked to do when you encounter questions on subjects which are not directly covered by the syllabus.
As for the question: it would be a very enthusiastic captain who would fly the whole of the flight, approach and landing - surely he would "allow" the F/O to do the more boring parts of the flight such as programming that auto-pilot en-route. So that immediately rules out D. I'd go for C.
FFF
-----------
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FFF,
Yes fair points. I now see what you meant by the 75% statement. I think the ATPL's in many respects are no different to exams in other professions in so much that, as well as imparting knowledge (of various degrees of relevance it has to be said !) to the student, they also show a certain "standard" (don't like that word) of learning and to a degree (and ONLY to a degree) a level of understanding relevant to aviation today.
There are some very relevant itmes of knowledge contained in the ATPL's which as I say, will be useful / necessary for type ratings and safe and efficient line flying.
However there is an awful lot of guff in there which will be of no relevance whatsoever to the "day job", which brings us back to the standard of learning point.
As for the practice of learning off-pat questions straight from the question bank, I believe this to be a necessary part of revision for the exams, HAVING DONE SUFFICIENT STUDY AND UNDERSTOOD THE MATERIAL FIRST (sorry, not shouting, just can't get the italics to work). The way some of the questions are phrased (and I'm not talking about those questions that make you think about the theory in a slightly different way to how it was taught, they should be fine with a bit of thought), are just so damn ambiguous, it can be a pure guessing game, hence after each exam sitting, some questions will always get withdrawn on appeal due to this very reason.
The upshot of all this is that yes, they are a "standard" to get through, yes you should UNDERSTAND the material, yes you probably will forget most of the irrelevant guff after the exam and keep the relevant stfuff for when it's needed.
I doubt the ATPL's will ever become a wrote learning exercise at all due to the level of actual understanding required (the way it should be).
all the best.
Yes fair points. I now see what you meant by the 75% statement. I think the ATPL's in many respects are no different to exams in other professions in so much that, as well as imparting knowledge (of various degrees of relevance it has to be said !) to the student, they also show a certain "standard" (don't like that word) of learning and to a degree (and ONLY to a degree) a level of understanding relevant to aviation today.
There are some very relevant itmes of knowledge contained in the ATPL's which as I say, will be useful / necessary for type ratings and safe and efficient line flying.
However there is an awful lot of guff in there which will be of no relevance whatsoever to the "day job", which brings us back to the standard of learning point.
As for the practice of learning off-pat questions straight from the question bank, I believe this to be a necessary part of revision for the exams, HAVING DONE SUFFICIENT STUDY AND UNDERSTOOD THE MATERIAL FIRST (sorry, not shouting, just can't get the italics to work). The way some of the questions are phrased (and I'm not talking about those questions that make you think about the theory in a slightly different way to how it was taught, they should be fine with a bit of thought), are just so damn ambiguous, it can be a pure guessing game, hence after each exam sitting, some questions will always get withdrawn on appeal due to this very reason.
The upshot of all this is that yes, they are a "standard" to get through, yes you should UNDERSTAND the material, yes you probably will forget most of the irrelevant guff after the exam and keep the relevant stfuff for when it's needed.
I doubt the ATPL's will ever become a wrote learning exercise at all due to the level of actual understanding required (the way it should be).
all the best.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent posts guys.
Totally agree with all that you say, especially re. the ambiguity of questions, the requirement to understand the information, and especially how to select italics.
Question banks have their place, but I think you will find that most people who are sitting these things work their butts off. It's too expensive not to.
You do not need to be a rocket scientist to pass any of the exams. If you could sit each one individually, I imagine the first-time pass-rate for candidates would be somewhere in the order of 90-95%. It's that fact that you sit ten or so together that makes it difficult, and I believe the system is there to weed out those people who don't really have the commitment to make it.
Passing your exams pretty much proves to a potential employer that you can pass their ground-school which is done in a very very, very short period of time.
Multiple choice papers are not a good test of your knowledge per se - it would be better to have written answers, some short questions, some long, as it used to be done, but I guess there's just too many people going through the system now for this to work.
---------
And finally; the answer to my question is... none of the above.
The correct course of action, naturally, is to ditch the old ******, grab the cabin crew and leg it in the direction of the nearest swimming pool/bar/restaurant/nightclub. You would never actually approach the bar, and make a lame excuse later on.
Just goes to prove my point about multi-choice papers !
As for answer (c).... wait till you fly with a Captain who considers an FO part of the MEL ! Aircraft..check... fuel.. check.. F/O.. check... right, now I can go flying
Totally agree with all that you say, especially re. the ambiguity of questions, the requirement to understand the information, and especially how to select italics.
Question banks have their place, but I think you will find that most people who are sitting these things work their butts off. It's too expensive not to.
You do not need to be a rocket scientist to pass any of the exams. If you could sit each one individually, I imagine the first-time pass-rate for candidates would be somewhere in the order of 90-95%. It's that fact that you sit ten or so together that makes it difficult, and I believe the system is there to weed out those people who don't really have the commitment to make it.
Passing your exams pretty much proves to a potential employer that you can pass their ground-school which is done in a very very, very short period of time.
Multiple choice papers are not a good test of your knowledge per se - it would be better to have written answers, some short questions, some long, as it used to be done, but I guess there's just too many people going through the system now for this to work.
---------
And finally; the answer to my question is... none of the above.
The correct course of action, naturally, is to ditch the old ******, grab the cabin crew and leg it in the direction of the nearest swimming pool/bar/restaurant/nightclub. You would never actually approach the bar, and make a lame excuse later on.
Just goes to prove my point about multi-choice papers !
As for answer (c).... wait till you fly with a Captain who considers an FO part of the MEL ! Aircraft..check... fuel.. check.. F/O.. check... right, now I can go flying
Guest
Posts: n/a
There's one thing which I've never quite undersood- why are JAA exams formatted with multiple choice questions, rather than, as is the norm in Higher Education, on the basis of questions which require a student to definitely know the answers.
It's akin to "Who wants to be a Millionaire?", as opposed to "Mastermind"! The WwtbaM route gives a four in one choice, even if the correct answer is not known. It also leads to the present thread, which surely is advocating to potential exam candidates "Let's look at the answers to the questions before we go in"
It's akin to "Who wants to be a Millionaire?", as opposed to "Mastermind"! The WwtbaM route gives a four in one choice, even if the correct answer is not known. It also leads to the present thread, which surely is advocating to potential exam candidates "Let's look at the answers to the questions before we go in"
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
feedback
Hi ,
I have to retake Principles of Flight from the ATPL exams and I would be happy to exchange feedback with somebody from Oxford or ATA . I have feedback from all 14 subjects .
Also I would like to ask a moderator to tell me whether it is OK to post messages offering an exchange of feedback . Thank you .
Fred
I have to retake Principles of Flight from the ATPL exams and I would be happy to exchange feedback with somebody from Oxford or ATA . I have feedback from all 14 subjects .
Also I would like to ask a moderator to tell me whether it is OK to post messages offering an exchange of feedback . Thank you .
Fred
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Isle Of Man
Age: 45
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tosh McCaber.
The answer to you question is that with a limited time in each exam and the amount of knowledge to be tested, using the high school methods of writing an essay on each subject is entirely impractical. Although quite why the CAA/JAA insist on writing questions/answers designed entirely to test the candidates use of the English language instead of the subject is beyond me.
Going to the earlier argument of whether learning the feedback Q's is the right way to...................
The sylabus will teach you the subject but not how to pass the exam, The feedback will teach you to pass the exam.
Having sat all 14 very recently My opinion is an educated one, and those commenting on them before sitting them should perhaps hold their tounges.
The systems paper is a good example, having worked as an aircraft mechanic for 6 years, I know my systems, far more than a pilot will ever need to. When it came to the exam i failed, the reason was that there were only two questions on engines, very few on mechanics/ airframes and an obserd amount of type specific questions that will be covered in a type rating.
The exams are Hard, but almost impossible without some help in the way of past papers.
I can pass on all that i have, but have no time to be involved in organising them on a web page.
The answer to you question is that with a limited time in each exam and the amount of knowledge to be tested, using the high school methods of writing an essay on each subject is entirely impractical. Although quite why the CAA/JAA insist on writing questions/answers designed entirely to test the candidates use of the English language instead of the subject is beyond me.
Going to the earlier argument of whether learning the feedback Q's is the right way to...................
The sylabus will teach you the subject but not how to pass the exam, The feedback will teach you to pass the exam.
Having sat all 14 very recently My opinion is an educated one, and those commenting on them before sitting them should perhaps hold their tounges.
The systems paper is a good example, having worked as an aircraft mechanic for 6 years, I know my systems, far more than a pilot will ever need to. When it came to the exam i failed, the reason was that there were only two questions on engines, very few on mechanics/ airframes and an obserd amount of type specific questions that will be covered in a type rating.
The exams are Hard, but almost impossible without some help in the way of past papers.
I can pass on all that i have, but have no time to be involved in organising them on a web page.
