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Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:33
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Education advice?

Hi guys!

Just a quick one. Im interested I'm becoming a pilot but I'm only educated to GCSE, I understand I need to improve this, I've tried to enrol on an A level course but have been told I'm too old (I'm 23)? So I'm considering doing an access course and then going to uni to do aerospace engineering with pilot studies. If I would have been accepted on to A levels I don't think I would have gone on to uni once I'd completed them.

What do you guys think? What route will be best?
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:49
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Who told you that you were too old to go and do A-Levels? That's incorrect. I'm Scottish (where most do Highers, not A-Levels), and even here I could enrol on a private course to do English A-Levels if I wanted to, irrespective of age. Perhaps whoever you spoke to were trying to put you off for some other reason? Are your GCSE results good enough, for instance?

If money is an issue then I'd avoid doing a degree if your heart is absolutely set on flying. The loss of income and taking on of student debt will probably set you back more than the experience and education will set you forward. On top of that, a degree is a lot harder than A-Levels, and takes a lot longer, yet A-Levels would still enable you to join an integrated course or apply for a cadet programme.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:59
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Education advice?

The college I enquired at explained there's no funding for over 18's? I know there is as it would be my first level 3. My GCSE results are fine, there's an A level maths for adults and I could take that but 1 A level wouldn't be enough would it? I wanted to take maths, physics and one more subject but unsure what I'd enjoy/support my application? If I'm unable to do this, I feel the access course then degree is my only other option, if but as I said I'm 23 as don't want to be 'too old' once I've completed education, this is why A levels we're my first choice.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 11:07
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Oh yea, you might be too old to get it funded. But that doesn't mean you can't do it if you can pay for it yourself. Maths and Physics are very relevant subjects. You probably do want to get at least three though. I mean the BA FPP requires minimum three A-Levels at BBC. And the good thing about doing it that was is that if you don't make it with an airline then the A-Levels will still enable you to go to uni if you wanted.

That'd be my advice.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 11:14
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Education advice?

This is the reason I wanted to do my A levels. What 3rd subject would you recommend if I was able to gain a place on an A level programme? If I do gain my A levels I don't think uni would be an option, it's either A levels or access course then degree. Which do you think would be preferred? Thanks for the speedy responses!
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Old 6th Sep 2013, 01:18
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Airline Pilot Cadet Pilot Programme | Selection Process | CTC Wings

Required = 5 GCSE's at grade C or above

Pretty sure Oxford's requirement is the same too
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Old 6th Sep 2013, 09:44
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Education advice?

I am aware of this but thanks for your response! If you where in my shoes, what would you do? Improve your education or work and go modular? I don't think I could earn a good enough wage with just GCSE's to pay for lessons! Thanks again!
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Old 6th Sep 2013, 13:23
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Although 5 GCSEs (with fairly low grades) are all that's required as minimum entry to integrated flight schools, to have any chance at a tagged scheme you'll almost certainly need a few A-Levels. Maths and Physics are the most relevant. I'm not sure what I'd suggest for a third one as I don't know what the English system offers (and therefore what's expected of you), but I'd imagine you can't go wrong by studying English or perhaps getting another science under your belt. Just don't do A-Level cake decorating or something.

But remember, you can work; improve your education; and train all at the same time. It's hard work, but it's possible if you are very commited to it. But why wouldn't uni be an option after A-Levels. I thought that was the idea of A-Levels in England?
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Old 6th Sep 2013, 14:36
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Education advice?

Haha! Cake decorating. I quite fancied that. . If I was to take A levels this year I probably would consider uni, but all colleges are full. My second option is to do an access course then go on to uni to study aerospace engineering with pilot studies, I will be 27 by the time I have completed the degree, what do you think my chances with airlines be at that age? I just want to be in a position to apply for airline programmes, jus unsure whats the best way to go about it? Thanks again.
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Old 8th Sep 2013, 10:49
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I thought I'd post this as I was / am in quite a similar situation to yourself and might be able to help you with my own personal experience.

Probably, likewise as yourself - the life-long, childhood dream of becoming an airline pilot etc. has existed.

Unfortunately - I did not do so great at GCSE - but I did go to College to try and get 4 A-Levels - eventually only managed 2 - one of which was Physics and then went to a second-rate Uni (as it was, better now!) to study Physics.

Presently, I am about to start my third year at said Uni, still studying Physics. However at the same time - I have also made the choice to start NPPL (Microlight) training. - Okay, not a PPL / Airline Pilot training / rating but I have decided to take that step nonetheless.

- I looked at doing the 'integrated courses' at Uni i.e a course with training but decided to settle on Physics 'in general' as it has a few more 'fallback' options should something in aviation related industry not materialise.

In my case - while going to Uni adds debt - it has also given me the opportunity to be able to afford flight training. (Okay - it is a 'loan' of money but at a much better rate, and gives me the time (not a 9-5 day job) to be able to attempt it).

I think - regardless of your age - though you are still young after-all!, you should do what you personally want to do - as they say, necessity is the mother of all invention - and as others on this forum have posted - if you want to do something, you will find a way to do it, regardless of the circumstances, cost etc.

If you are committed to be an airline pilot - I would first advise, if you have not already done-so, a medical to ensure you can - otherwise - that is a LOT of time / money / hope to be wasted.

-Partly why I decided to go for a NPPL M - easier to get, but just as fun as real flying though it is cheaper, too!

Age is not really a cut-off for jobs - it is ability / capability / expected performance - okay - you might not retire as a senior captain on a heavy - but a senior FO on a heavy / captain on something lighter is a possibility I'm sure. (Not an official source / word on the matter however).

The bottom line though is this: If it is something you want to do - you should at-least try and do it - after-all, it is not what we do that we regret, it is what we did not do.
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Old 8th Sep 2013, 15:05
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Education advice?

Hi there! Thanks for the reply!

Do you mind if I ask how old you were when you started your a levels as I've been told I'm too old! A levels are my first choice as they would allow me to apply to schemes after 2 years whereas if I went down the access course route it would take 4 years to be in a position to apply for cadet schemes.

My local college will accept me on to the a level maths adult class, unfortunately this is the only a level I can enrol on. I am considering doing the a level maths then self studying a level physics and biology, do you think this would be possible or would it be too much work?

I do have a few good contacts, which I'm very fortunate to have, a friend of a friend flys for a uk airline, I had a chat to him a while back and explained that I shouldn't worry about age! I was also told I'd be able to get discounted lessons which will be of huge help as I'm not financially able to pay these costs, even at discounted rate it will be tough! But that's not stopping me!

I just don't want to be wasting anymore time, I want to either do a levels, or do an access course then uni not really interesting in the latter even though it will give me more life experience and mature me, but as you say it adds to the debt!

I agree on getting my medical, but as I said right now I'm broke! No job, nothing! As soon as I've decided on what education route I will be taking and get an idea if the time table, I'll be in a position to look for work which will allow me to take the medical and start lessons, which I can not wait for!
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Old 8th Sep 2013, 16:32
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I was the typical age when I started my A-Levels - though I initially chose Maths and Physics - ended up completed failing Maths, while just passing Physics.

In my second year, I chose to continue the Physics - but basically self-taught the core syllabus to myself via a few 'concise' books and ended up doing okay in the end. - I would say it is very possible to 'self-teach' if you wanted - but it is expensive.

I ended up repeating about 4 exams for the Physics to change my overall grade (I think it was £15 an exam)- while not having the additional course costs, or other fees to worry about.

From personal experience you are not 'too old' for A-Levels, at my college there were plenty of twenty-somethings doing A-Levels - and for the evening classes mainly adults (thirties on-wards) attended.

Regarding the plausibility of it all - I do not think it would be 'too much' if you were to do not much else. A part-time job would be manageable, though I must confess I mainly just studied each night and had no other commitments.

However it will be expensive to self-study - I would say in your situation - you should weigh up which would be more useful to you.

A-Levels may offer you more - but will probably cost more - a loan could cover this - but could you / would you be happy to pay it back?

If the worst case scenario presented itself: i.e. just having A-Levels (no cadet scheme) or just having an Access Course - which would you prefer?

I know how you feel about Time - I feel the same - I wish I could take back years and say right - I will begin flight training at 16, 18 etc. But - that is in the past; what is important - as you say - is to do something now, while you can.

If I remember correctly I believe there may be some form of financial aid / bursary available to older A-Level / College education applicants? At-least, it seemed so were I studied?
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Old 8th Sep 2013, 16:45
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I suspect the main entry requirements for an integrated course are do you have 100 grand rather than do you have any a levels.

if you want to go and fly go and fly. you certainly don't need a levels or a uni degree to do that.

then if thiungs go tits up say you lose your medical then do a levels.

and to answer your question I was 26 when I did my a levels

Last edited by Mickey Kaye; 8th Sep 2013 at 16:47.
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Old 8th Sep 2013, 17:01
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Education advice?

I understand that cost is the main barrier, but I don't want to be in a position and end up not having the educational requirements. There's so many routes in to it, I'm just unsure what will give me the best chance!
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Old 8th Sep 2013, 18:56
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I would agree with Mickey.

I think your best 'chance' exists more on money than educational finesse.

Hypothetically - ignoring the medical aspect: more money = more choice / practice / hours / training = greater chance of success.

The student who applies with hours, knowledge and extra money surely stands the best chance.

I believe that there are two aspects here:
1) The Cadet Scheme
2) The Education

You do not necessarily need one for the other, though having both would obviously help should anything go wrong / you need time out, etc.

The 'traditional' method I presume would be GCSE -> PPL/A-Levels -> (Degree?) CPL/ATPL -> The future job as a pilot

However - that is not the case for all and indeed - even looking at the threads on this forum - especially the 'The perpetual 'Am I too old?' thread - 2010-13' suggests that practically anyone can achieve their dream - if only they commit to it.

You could go ahead and join a cadet scheme - but if it went wrong - you would be left with nothing.

Conversely, you could study - and fail to achieve any educational qualifications.

Or, you could study, get qualifications and be left without flight training.

Finally - the best outcome - you could have both the flight training and the qualifications (I would argue it is the 'best' as should a flying career fall short for any reason - redundancy, accident, etc you would then have a better prospect of some "real" work - as opposed to serving fast food for eternity).

Ultimately - whatever you do decide to do - will be your choice.

The chance even exists for you to jump onto a cadet scheme (no further education) and never look back - except perhaps after 40 or so years at the controls of an airliner.

However I think it is prudent to try and stress that it would be wise to have some form of 'back-up' plan - you do not want to be left with nothing.
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Old 9th Sep 2013, 19:45
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Education advice?

I agree also! But I'm not in a position to pay for an integrated course and don't see it happening in the future. But I'll keep dreaming!

This is the reason for me going back into full time education, even though I don't want to! But in order to keep the dream alive that's what I feel will give me a glimmer of hope.

Modular is another option but is that worth it considering the state of the industry? But as I've said before I'm only educated to gcse standard so unfortunately I'm restricted to certain jobs such as warehouse, retail etc.. With the money you earn off those jobs, it would take an awful amount of time to complete flight training! I really couldn't see myself struggling to live for x amount of years then end up not getting a job at the end of training.
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Old 10th Sep 2013, 08:46
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I'm going to try and be completely honest here and do not think you will like it, but I will try to offer my own personal opinion and advice - which may not reflect correct, sound or well-informed advice - so please bear that in mind.

Typically, I would imagine there are three types of flight training types:
1) Those who have the financial backing of their families
2) Those that can self-fund their training
3) Those that take out loans to fund their dream

Unless you are lucky enough to be in position 1), anything with regards to flight training is a gamble, expense and uncertainty.

You could be well one day, invest 50k into some training - then have an accident, incident or other - which renders you unable to complete the training. (Okay, some organisations offer refunds for incomplete / uncompleted parts).

If you did that with loan money - as an example, it would be very bad news indeed. Perhaps likely to even result in a debt spiral.

As you note - some people have completed the training, only to find that no jobs exist or that they are unable to proceed with their dream.

You only have to look at other threads on this forum - to see that, unless you have an endless pool of money, a job straight out of training is unlikely. Many people now have to pay-to-fly as a FO, to be considered, due to the saturation of the industry with high-hours applicants. (At the present moment).

However - it is surely not all that bad - if you do not mind where you work, are flexible, the opportunities are and will be out there.

Further - the type of work is also an important factor. In your last reply - it seems you have stated that you will never be able to afford the training - and yet you are determined to try.

Perhaps considering some 'middle-ground' careers could be useful - a flight instructor, for example - not the same as a commercial airline pilot - but offers many of the benefits - perhaps more depending upon how you look at it.

Ultimately it comes down to risk and how much of one you are willing to take.

You could put everything on the line and loose everything - but what is more important here to you, personally? That you tried or that you have nothing left?

If it is the latter then obviously you are risk concious and would like some security.

If it is the former then I would diagnose you with an obsession over aviation and that it is quite clear you will not be satisfied until you have exhausted every last attempt to try and get in the air (like many and like myself, I am sure).

Most importantly - I think you need to make sure you know how you are going to afford the flight training.

If you do not mind taking loans - you could try and start whenever.

An education - as noted, does not really make any great distinction - otherwise, there would be little need for aptitude or flight tests.

However most of the courses I have seen (scholarships aside) seem to require at-least self-funded PPL training (which is not pocket-change around 6-8k).

Once you know how you are going to fund your dream - the rest is a matter of application.
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Old 10th Sep 2013, 16:40
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Originally Posted by Wizbod7
I agree also! But I'm not in a position to pay for an integrated course and don't see it happening in the future. But I'll keep dreaming!

This is the reason for me going back into full time education, even though I don't want to! But in order to keep the dream alive that's what I feel will give me a glimmer of hope.

Modular is another option but is that worth it considering the state of the industry? But as I've said before I'm only educated to gcse standard so unfortunately I'm restricted to certain jobs such as warehouse, retail etc.. With the money you earn off those jobs, it would take an awful amount of time to complete flight training! I really couldn't see myself struggling to live for x amount of years then end up not getting a job at the end of training.
Reasonably informed opinions from me:-

- A level Maths and Physics will stand you in excellent stead for a whole bunch of things. You don't have to do a third (/4th...) A-level, but if you do, IMHO the best additional A-level is something that (a) you'll enjoy, (b) involves some essay writing, and (c) is none of: media studies, general studies or critical thinking.

- DO NOT attempt an aerospace engineering degree (or variations) unless you genuinely believe that you might wish to become an aerospace engineer. It's years of dedicated hard work, expensive, and few people will get through it without a real passion for the subject. "Aviation Engineering with pilot studies", or variations, are there for people considering the possibility of both routes, or the sort of jobs that want both skillsets (such as military careers, or boffins like me who are primarily aerospace engineers but also use their flying knowledge within that).

- Whilst technically you don't need A-levels, the time to do those qualifications is cheap now, and the study skills gained from them will serve you well for a lifetime.

- Modular .v. Integrated has been discussed to death, but I'll offer a 1-line summary. A handful of Big Airlines massively prefer Integrated graduates. Many smaller employers - flying schools and the like, prefer people with a more mixed modular background. In both cases that's only for a first job - once you've been flying professionally for a few years, neither cares how you trained and will only care about your hours, ratings, and personal attributes. Modular, well managed, is half the cost.

- If a particular college isn't funded for A-levels for a mature student, fund it yourself or go elsewhere (e.g. evening classes whilst working). The cost will be tiny compared to most things you may do later in life anyhow.

- Nothing to stop you working, studying a couple of A-levels, and working through your PPL and/or ATPL groundschool at the same time. Well nothing except that it'll take a lot of time and hard work - but all aerospace careers take a lot of time and hard work to achieve.
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Old 10th Sep 2013, 23:55
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Education advice?

To be honest, I really don't have a clue what els I'd like to do! Since I realised that's what I wanted, I just can picture myself doing anything els. The reason I thought of aerospace engineering is because it's related to planes, but I can't say I feel the same about it compared to flying!

As I've said, I can't see myself doing anything els, but I don't want to over commit to it for the simple fact there are no guarantees! I do need a back up, but I'm clueless as to what that could be. I've looked into train driving, but that seems to be too repetitive for my liking, pretty decent pay though once fully qualified!


I can't seem to find a college that will accept me, the only thing I have found is a college not so far from my home will accept me for adult a level maths (the only adult class they do) I'm considering doing that then self studying physics and maybe a 3rd subject, I should still be able to get support as I would be going to the college to study, I feel this may be my only option if I choose to do a levels. This would allow me to work in the evenings and fly weekends. I like the idea of it, but it will be difficult!
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Old 11th Sep 2013, 08:57
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Noting Genghis's response and your own, it seems clear:

A-Levels are the option that you (more) want to do.

Yes - it will be very difficult, but if you can not see yourself doing anything else - there is no other option aside from guaranteed financial ruin, that will suit you and your needs.

I do not know how much you know about / have looked into A-Levels - but if you do plan on self-study - ensure your college (where you are hoping to take Mathematics) will also allow you to take the Physics exams / coursework at their premises - unfortunately with Physics the coursework may make self-study more difficult as you require observation of your coursework practices so that no 'cheating' has been allowed.

Having said that - it is possible to pass the Physics A-Level with no coursework being done and solely relying on examination passes - but you would not be able to get an A* in this case I believe. (If that matters to you).
(At-least I think it was that way when I studied it!). (As an aside, the Government are changing the requirements of A-Levels I have heard - so this may / may not be applicable to you - be sure you know what you are signing up for!).

Regarding the learning to fly / working / studying - it will be difficult, but not impossible. As with everything - there will be times when you want to give up, throw in the towel etc. Yet if you just remember why you started the process and what your end goal is - continuation should be the obvious option and solution.
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