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Taking the leap?

Old 18th Aug 2013, 07:56
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Pilotchute- no matter what route you take it will never be easy to get 'meaningful employment', we know that! However if I am at lion air on a pay to fly scheme or I am on a flexicrew contract at easy I will be very happy because I am building experience on big jets. It's a lot better than having no work at all!

Are you saying to go modular? A modular student would do very well just to find a pay to fly scheme at lion air!

There is no flight school in the world that doesn't want to 'make profit'
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 10:02
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Chute:

I would agree its not the best time. I spoke to BALPA about this, and two very experienced captains said to stay out of the industry for the time being. Unfortunately for me it's sort of now (in the next year or so) or never. I couldn't find the money to do this with the financial pressures of house, car etc.

I would be tempted to say that those who graduated nearly three years ago ('08-'10) may have given up on the search. I have nothing to base this on, other than what I would probably do if I were in their situation - finding employment in other industries and climbing the ladder there perhaps. Just speculation.

I can agree with the figures you found on another thread - someone I knew said that out of his OAA class (or whatever it's called) of about 25, two had a job a year later.

WRT the figures from the CAE website, I understand that the boom in airline traffic is in the east. I'm not sure how they think it's going to affect the recruitment here; it might draw the experienced pilots to the east, leaving space for less experienced pilots to move up here or they might start recruiting flying school graduates (which they generally don't, with the exception of some MPL schemes).

Oxford and CTC are always going to be out to trick you. How could you run a company that turns over millions of pounds if your website read "don't bother. Try in five years time"? You would have to be very nave to believe every word anyone says when trying to sell something.

Smartguy:

Surely nobody could be happy with a P2F scheme at Lion? Imagine having mortgaged your parents house for 100,000 and then having to pay a company for the privilege of flying their passengers around? I might go as far as saying that it's worse than having no job.

Almost makes the Flexicrew contracts look like a good deal!

That being said, I have to agree with you on the flying school profit. If they didn't run at a profit, they couldn't do anything for long.

Pilot lad:

I know what you mean. I have a part time gardening business and I hate the fact that there's no guaranteed income.

Last edited by Buggington; 18th Aug 2013 at 10:06.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 10:54
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Bug,

I'm telling you not to do flight training at all, Mod or Integrated. It just really isn't a good time.

I got my CPL in 2008. About a month after, the hiring boom that had been going full steam ahead for about 4 years came to a screeching halt almost overnight.The difference in my case compared to the majority was I didn't have any debt. I started a bit later than the average wannabe guy. I had a few years working up my sleeve and a bit of money in the bank.

The whole mod versus Integrated thing is a bit of a myth. If the airlines need people it doesn't matter to them what type or training you did. Planes don't fly themselves. When the market is tight they can put all sorts of stipulations on the hiring webpage. First time passes and other sorts of nonsense doesn't come up when they may have to park aircraft. Another myth is instructing is a dead route to the airlines. Well sorry guys but airlines aren't hiring anyone. Instructors included. When the market picks up instructors will again find jobs on jets/TP's.

In regards to P2F. I'm in SE Asia right now and I can tell you the Lion guys aren't having a good time. Well some maybe but most of them are scared stiff of still not having a job when they go. Qatar has taken a few but since the MPL started, no one has had a call. Scoot have picked up a few also. They then had to pay 35k for type rating on a 777. Believe me, the package they are on isn't very good.

Many people will get on here and tell you that line training is just part of the whole industry now. Well it isn't and don't make it like that. For every "my mate did line training and is now flying for XXX Airline" there are ten more people behind him who didn't get anything after line training finished. So now your 150k in debt with no job. I would rather be 90k in debt with no job than 150k!

Oh yeah it took nearly 3 years for me to land my first job. I could have got one 12 months earlier but I let my medical lapse! So I'm sure there may just be more people out there looking than you think.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 11:12
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Of course ctc and oaa want to make profit but every other school in the world does aswell. And btw, with the new degree involved you don't have to take out 100k loan on your parents house anymore, you would only be looking to take out 50k. Up to 42k of the money will be student loan which means that you only pay it back when you have earned enough money.

Do you honestly believe that paying some tin pot airline in Indonesia thousands of pounds for the privilege of flying for them is better than having no work at all?
umm...yes!? If you were to ask that question to a newly qualified pilot that has spend 2 years looking for flying work, what would they say? They would say that they would definitly prefer flying with lion. That way they are gaining valuable experience flying 737/a320 with hundreds of hours building in their log books and at least some money coming in! I would definitely prefer flying with lion than having no work at all!

Also once you have completed say 3000 hours pay to fly you may then be put on a permenant contract and you would then also fit the requirements to apply for BA/Virgin etc..
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 11:15
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Planes don't fly themselves
Lol they basically do! Well according to airbus, pilotless aircraft aren't that far away...

Last edited by smartguy; 18th Aug 2013 at 11:19.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 11:17
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and where did you get the number 150k ??????!!
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 11:35
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Smartguy,

How much is the OAA intergrated course now? I want the all in price that has the MCC and JOC and god know what else you have to do now. I also want the living costs for OAA for the duration of the course and spending money chucked in too. How much is it?

I will then tell you how much the Lion scheme really costs. Its a lot more than the 50k USD they advertise when you factor in some things they don't mention in the brochure. I'm pretty sure 150 wont be far off.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 12:11
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Ok maybe the cost of it may be close to 130k at the most! As long as you go to either ctc, oaa or flying time aviation you would be eligible to the student loan of upto 42k. Which means that 130k will not be resting on your parents house.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 12:40
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I suppose 88k on your parents house is better than 130k but who's counting?

Some home truths about Lion. They started doing a 500 hours plus 1 year employment. Well if you call 2k USD a month employment. They pay you nothing until you get 500 hours on type.

The course costs 50k USD (when it was running) That's 32k pounds. Now the hotel you stay in for type rating (ratings mostly done in Germany or Netherlands) and all other expenses are paid by you. Flights, meals etc. That will get pretty expensive over 3-4 weeks. Turn up in Jakarta and your ready to go. Well no your not. You wait 4 months for a sim check and pray you pass it or it will be another couple of months before you get another crack at it and if you bomb on this one the money is forfeited. So you pass the check. Fast forward another 4 months and you have finally started line training.

Well wait again cause your IR needs renewing now. Off home you go to do the IR renewal and prof check cause its coming up on 12 months since you did your type rating. Lion don't pay for that so you go to the place you did your type rating to do your renewal. All paid for by you. This is repeated every 6 month. Mmm gets expensive now doesn't it? Who was paying your rent and buying your food for the first 18 months you were in Jakarta until you finally got 500 hours on type. That's right, you.

You can budget on spending about 1000 USD a month on rent, taxi's and food while you wait to get 500 on type. Jakarta is cheap but to say you would spend less than that wouldn't be a true representation. Some will spend much more, other maybe less.

This isn't the exception. A lot of P2F schemes are run like this.

See how getting to around 150k pounds isn't that hard after all?

Last edited by pilotchute; 18th Aug 2013 at 12:44.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 12:53
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Also once you have completed say 3000 hours pay to fly you may then be put on a permenant contract and you would then also fit the requirements to apply for BA/Virgin etc..
And why exactly would they take someone with 3000hrs who expects a free type rating and a good salary when they could take some gobshite who offers to pay?
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 12:57
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If you were to ask that question to a newly qualified pilot that has spend 2 years looking for flying work, what would they say? They would say that they would definitely prefer flying with lion.
This describes me perfectly and I say not a hope in hell am I paying to fly.

Why pay2fly? To get experience to get a job? Experience means nothing if there's people willing to pay2fly! Understand?

Do you not have foresight?
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:05
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No, what I mean is that you get experience from pay2fly so you can get a job at an airline where there is no pay to fly...like BA/Virgin. BA/Virgin don't take cadet pilots (except for BA FPP) so everyone who apply's for a job at BA/Virgin will be experienced pilots so there will be no 'gobshite' who will offer to pay.

Correct me but I believe BA/Virgin cover the cost of their type rating training anyway!
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:09
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And maybe I shouldn't have talk about lion air. I do not plan on pay2fly but what I'm saying is that it is better than having no work at all.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:12
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you are either a moron, or a troll
It does get a bit boring when you call me that for the 20th time. Do yourself a favour and leave this forum, unless your going to give good advice!
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:16
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Smartguy,

I had constructed a long and balanced response to your answer. I then decided you are either too arrogant or ignorant to understand it.

With an attitude and ideas like yours no one in their right mind would hire you.

I just noticed that you don't even have a licence. How do you think your opinion should be taken seriously if you haven't even been to flying school?

Do you go onto truck driving forums and shell out advice also?

Last edited by pilotchute; 18th Aug 2013 at 13:21.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:25
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I would very much like to see this response and I am sure that I will be able to understand it. I will never plan on going pay2fly I just mentioned it to make a point.

All I'm saying is that with the government funding, you would not have to take at a loan of no more than 60k (the cost of a modular course) and have a degree to put on your CV all in the time of 18 months. There is no longer as big risks as there was before

Last edited by smartguy; 18th Aug 2013 at 13:28.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:27
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I am actually going to Aeros flight training, doing my PPL.
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Old 18th Aug 2013, 13:36
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Correct me but I believe BA/Virgin cover the cost of their type rating training anyway!
They effectively don't under the guise of the cadetship. They spin it by saying they are giving people a chance but really they just want the wannabes cash before its spent at another airline.

With regards to the degree grant etc. Maybe the government should get more heavily involved and regulate yearly numbers of how many can train? The schools and airlines wont like that of course.
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