large jets straight from frozen atpl?
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large jets straight from frozen atpl?
Hi there,
I would like to know If it is possible fly large jets such as B777 or 767 straight from a frozen atpl (with no other jet experience and type ratings with low hours such as 250-300. Or do most pilot climb from turbo props to the larger ones?
I am talking about four years time when I finished my training.
I hope I made some sense.
appreciate your time.
I would like to know If it is possible fly large jets such as B777 or 767 straight from a frozen atpl (with no other jet experience and type ratings with low hours such as 250-300. Or do most pilot climb from turbo props to the larger ones?
I am talking about four years time when I finished my training.
I hope I made some sense.
appreciate your time.
Last edited by Pilot16; 25th Apr 2002 at 20:32.
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Take it from me it isnīt that much fun to fly a big commercial jetliner. I wouldnīt recommend going straight into that seat. Of course it is so much more difficult to take a type rating with no experience.
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It has certainly been possible to get a job flying B737s straight from training. The only operator of B767/777s that did take low-hour pilots was BA, but as far as I know the largest type they'd put newly-graduated cadets on is short-haul B757s. A couple of IT operators have also put low-hour pilots on B757s in the recent past.
However, that was all before Sep 11th! Right now, there are very, very few jobs out there for fATPLs. I'm sure the situation will be much better in four years' time, but I wouldn't be in such a rush to run before you can walk.
However, that was all before Sep 11th! Right now, there are very, very few jobs out there for fATPLs. I'm sure the situation will be much better in four years' time, but I wouldn't be in such a rush to run before you can walk.
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don't forget Emirates
Scroggs,
Don't forget that Emirates also send their cadets (who go through exactly the same course as BA cadets) straight onto B777 or A340 after completing the IRT. And that's only with 200 hours each.
Cheers,
femaleflyer
Don't forget that Emirates also send their cadets (who go through exactly the same course as BA cadets) straight onto B777 or A340 after completing the IRT. And that's only with 200 hours each.
Cheers,
femaleflyer
Emirates and Cathay both at one time put 200hr boys and girls into widebody flightdecks. However; they were little more than cruise pilots for several years. Getting the Volmet and being on hand to engage the other autopilot should one drop out with the Skipper taking a pee is not really much fun nor much like flying.
I imagine its a good idea to get a few years of European or domestic jet hours under your belt before you try tackling a line of CB's over Delhi or an engine malfunction mid-Atlantic..
Face it guys. Only this week BACE has announced dozens and dozens of pilot jobs to be axed. Those ex-Brymon and British Regional pilots facing a P45 have tens of thousands of hours between them in both seats... Low time is going to be a real headache for a while yet. Things will get better - I am just not convinced they have finsihed getting worse yet
WWW
I imagine its a good idea to get a few years of European or domestic jet hours under your belt before you try tackling a line of CB's over Delhi or an engine malfunction mid-Atlantic..
Face it guys. Only this week BACE has announced dozens and dozens of pilot jobs to be axed. Those ex-Brymon and British Regional pilots facing a P45 have tens of thousands of hours between them in both seats... Low time is going to be a real headache for a while yet. Things will get better - I am just not convinced they have finsihed getting worse yet
WWW
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Don't put the SO job down so single-handedly WWW. Plenty of us actually did it for a while, and learned a hell of a lot; and not just about getting Volmet etc. mostly about the people-handling and airline operation skills. It's all down to your personal attitude, and how you approach the job... not necessarily the best way to start an aviation career, but it is a foot in the door at certain carriers. Nor is it something to do for a long time either, and should be consolidated with other flying, a structured sim. program and followed up on a small and violent type like a 737/T-Prop, but neither is it the trivial waste of time you characterise it as.
We did find ourselves with about 400 hours crossing the ITCZ, negotiating levels (creatively!) with Calcutta and Delhi, sitting over Siberia in winter with Europe Cat III on absolute minimum fuel. All the time learning from the experience, and most importantly seeing how the very experienced and culturally diverse crews we were flying with dealt with the operation.
Cart before the horse, certainly, but now in the LHS I find myself often referring back to the experience gained in CX. That, by definition, cannot have been a waste.
Anyway, enough already, to the question at hand; my mob would put cadets onto the 757 in the past, with the 767 coming up after about 6 months on average. However, to fly the 777 on ETOPS (and possibly the 767 ETOPS, but not when I flew it in 1996) required APIC qualification (Acting Pilot in Command) which basically meant you had to be suitable for command, with an unfrozen-ATPL and a few other hurdles succesfully crossed. For those reasons you are unlikely ever to see low-hour P2's in the RHS on the fleets that can require in-flight relief, ie, the long-range 777's, 330's, 340's and 744's of this world.
The largest you can "realistically" expect is a 737... the best place to start an airline career is without doubt one that builds exposure and handling experience. Time spent in a turboprop or something smaller than the jets you mention at the top is never wasted.
Some of this may be innacurate regarding other carriers policy, for that I apologise, but regarding BA that seems to be the current position of the goalposts. As you are well aware, they are constantly in motion, damn things!
Good luck.
Ģ6
We did find ourselves with about 400 hours crossing the ITCZ, negotiating levels (creatively!) with Calcutta and Delhi, sitting over Siberia in winter with Europe Cat III on absolute minimum fuel. All the time learning from the experience, and most importantly seeing how the very experienced and culturally diverse crews we were flying with dealt with the operation.
Cart before the horse, certainly, but now in the LHS I find myself often referring back to the experience gained in CX. That, by definition, cannot have been a waste.
Anyway, enough already, to the question at hand; my mob would put cadets onto the 757 in the past, with the 767 coming up after about 6 months on average. However, to fly the 777 on ETOPS (and possibly the 767 ETOPS, but not when I flew it in 1996) required APIC qualification (Acting Pilot in Command) which basically meant you had to be suitable for command, with an unfrozen-ATPL and a few other hurdles succesfully crossed. For those reasons you are unlikely ever to see low-hour P2's in the RHS on the fleets that can require in-flight relief, ie, the long-range 777's, 330's, 340's and 744's of this world.
The largest you can "realistically" expect is a 737... the best place to start an airline career is without doubt one that builds exposure and handling experience. Time spent in a turboprop or something smaller than the jets you mention at the top is never wasted.
Some of this may be innacurate regarding other carriers policy, for that I apologise, but regarding BA that seems to be the current position of the goalposts. As you are well aware, they are constantly in motion, damn things!
Good luck.
Ģ6
Last edited by Sick Squid; 25th Apr 2002 at 13:34.
Time spent in the air is rarely wasted and I concede I was too dissmissive about something I know little about. As you say though; not the best way to start a career.
WWW
WWW
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You should get your facts right WWW. Emirates STILL put "their 200 hour boys and girls" into the right hand seat straight out of training. I can name 9 or 10 cadets from EK3 and EK4, who were in Michigan, who are now flying B777s and A340s, in TWO (2) man operations. Don't be so bloody negative the whole time.
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Astraeus is about to put 4 F/O's straight into a 737/300/700 in around 3 weeks time. They have already passed the Ground School and start Sim on Monday. It can be done. Get on the Pprune scheme next time around and give it a go!!
As for flying a jet being boring.......********!!
As for flying a jet being boring.......********!!
FemaleFlyer - OK thanks for the new info. As far as I was aware Emirates had stopped putting their cadets into such operations. As you seem to know better I bow to your superior knowledge.
As for being Negative all the time. I back up any negative opinion with the reasoning and figures relevant. You are free to ignore my postings. Within the last month I posted a lengthy analysis with argument and hard figures. I was cautiously upbeat stating things would normalise in 2.5 years. So you are not being fair.
Thank you for the Emirates info.
WWW
As for being Negative all the time. I back up any negative opinion with the reasoning and figures relevant. You are free to ignore my postings. Within the last month I posted a lengthy analysis with argument and hard figures. I was cautiously upbeat stating things would normalise in 2.5 years. So you are not being fair.
Thank you for the Emirates info.
WWW
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As long as the facts are there, keep posting it the way you see it WWW. Your cautions saved me from taking the plunge at the wrong time, currently saving through the lean years
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Ah, yes. I did restrict my remarks to UK carriers, as Pilot16 is based in London. I am aware that Cathay and Emirates fly newly-graduated fATPLs as cruise pilots in A340/B744/B777. In fact, we in Virgin did the same a few years ago but decided in 1999 or 2000 that it wasn't economically viable to run a small section of SOs that couldn't be used on the normal roster as FOs. As Ģ6 mentions, you also need to get the APIC qualification to be fully useful in the long-haul business, which disqualifies all fATPL holders.
I'm sure that there are other airlines that do use low-hour pilots in long haul around the world, and good luck to them. I myself was qualified P1 on the 'Mighty Hercules' with less than 400 hours under my belt, and the RAF still sends baby co-pilots off all around the world (and to war) with very low hours on the E3 (B707), Nimrod, Tristar (L1011-500), C17, VC10 and C130. These are all serious heavy metal. Not only that, but these guys may be commanders on these types with around 1500 hours or less. If it's OK for the RAF, there's no reason why it shouldn't be for anyone else!
I'm sure that there are other airlines that do use low-hour pilots in long haul around the world, and good luck to them. I myself was qualified P1 on the 'Mighty Hercules' with less than 400 hours under my belt, and the RAF still sends baby co-pilots off all around the world (and to war) with very low hours on the E3 (B707), Nimrod, Tristar (L1011-500), C17, VC10 and C130. These are all serious heavy metal. Not only that, but these guys may be commanders on these types with around 1500 hours or less. If it's OK for the RAF, there's no reason why it shouldn't be for anyone else!
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OK, on re-reading my post, it appears I came across as being a little too harsh. WWW, I was refering to your negativity about the low hour long haul pilots, and should not have criticised in such broad terms. My apologies.
However, this IS such a difficult industry to predict, and one can not say FOR SURE how and when it will pick up. I feel that there are a lot of positive aspects out there that we should also concentrate on, such as the vast number of pilots coming up to retirement (indeed, most of the "dozens and dozens" - 48 actually - of BACE flight ops redundancies will come from pilots retiring or moving over to the BA mainline fleet). Also, the fact that pax loads have not dropped off nearly as much as first feared should be cause for hope.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's great to ponder and try to predict the future, and your analyses are a fantastic read, but the fact is that NO ONE can do it! This is not a criticism, just a re-iteration, that the only certain thing in aviation is uncertainty!
However, this IS such a difficult industry to predict, and one can not say FOR SURE how and when it will pick up. I feel that there are a lot of positive aspects out there that we should also concentrate on, such as the vast number of pilots coming up to retirement (indeed, most of the "dozens and dozens" - 48 actually - of BACE flight ops redundancies will come from pilots retiring or moving over to the BA mainline fleet). Also, the fact that pax loads have not dropped off nearly as much as first feared should be cause for hope.
Now, don't get me wrong, it's great to ponder and try to predict the future, and your analyses are a fantastic read, but the fact is that NO ONE can do it! This is not a criticism, just a re-iteration, that the only certain thing in aviation is uncertainty!
BACE flight op redundancies will come from retirement and moving to BA Mainline you say?
Surely not.
I don't denegrate the practice of SO's on widebodies. But not many airlines do it and most people agree its not the best start to your flying career.
As I have defended 200hr pilots flying jet airliners on this forum for about half a decade now it really would be unfair to imply I am snotty about their abilities whether as a SO or FO.
I am not at all sure full sponsorships will return anyway. The difference between Mod and Int these days is very marginal. I can see airlines saying "85%+ average in the exams plus first time pass in CPL or IRT with 2 A levels Grade C+ plus a recommendation from your school and we'll interview you".
Whereas CAP509 was quite different from 700hrs hour building the truth is nowadays the airline cadets do the same syllabus to the same standards as the modular guys. All the cadets sometimes get is a few extra hours on Aeros or something equally negligble.
It might be a better system in the long run.
WWW
Surely not.
I don't denegrate the practice of SO's on widebodies. But not many airlines do it and most people agree its not the best start to your flying career.
As I have defended 200hr pilots flying jet airliners on this forum for about half a decade now it really would be unfair to imply I am snotty about their abilities whether as a SO or FO.
I am not at all sure full sponsorships will return anyway. The difference between Mod and Int these days is very marginal. I can see airlines saying "85%+ average in the exams plus first time pass in CPL or IRT with 2 A levels Grade C+ plus a recommendation from your school and we'll interview you".
Whereas CAP509 was quite different from 700hrs hour building the truth is nowadays the airline cadets do the same syllabus to the same standards as the modular guys. All the cadets sometimes get is a few extra hours on Aeros or something equally negligble.
It might be a better system in the long run.
WWW
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No, you should pay more attention to detail. I said MOST of the BACE redundancies will come from crew moving to the main line or retiring. And it's hardly a great deal in the general sceme of things, is it? The BA cadets who were given posts in January/February with BACE after completing their training have been assured that their jobs are safe, so IF redundancies were obligatory, would they not be the first to go?
As for your comments on integrated v modular training, that all depends on the airline in question. The airlines who offer full sponsorship do very well out their programmes in terms of government tax cuts and, for the vast majority of cases, loyalty after the training is completed. Also, they recuperate a great deal of the costs from the cadets in the first few years of employment, in terms of reduced basic pay and having to pay back a percentage of the training costs. What's more, the cadets are bound legally to serve for a period of time, not to mention that the company can mould their crew to their particular requirements and operations manual from the very start.
Consequently, I disagree with that prediction for the future. I am quite sure that those airlines which can afford to offer sponsorships will continue to do so.
Going directly on to longhaul is not beneficial for the low hour pilot, in terms of sectors flown and experience gained in busy, short flights, but I maintain that some airlines do manage that and the end product from the excellent training is an extremely competent pilot.
As for your comments on integrated v modular training, that all depends on the airline in question. The airlines who offer full sponsorship do very well out their programmes in terms of government tax cuts and, for the vast majority of cases, loyalty after the training is completed. Also, they recuperate a great deal of the costs from the cadets in the first few years of employment, in terms of reduced basic pay and having to pay back a percentage of the training costs. What's more, the cadets are bound legally to serve for a period of time, not to mention that the company can mould their crew to their particular requirements and operations manual from the very start.
Consequently, I disagree with that prediction for the future. I am quite sure that those airlines which can afford to offer sponsorships will continue to do so.
Going directly on to longhaul is not beneficial for the low hour pilot, in terms of sectors flown and experience gained in busy, short flights, but I maintain that some airlines do manage that and the end product from the excellent training is an extremely competent pilot.