MCC - Is it an advantage to do in a Jet?
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MCC - Is it an advantage to do in a Jet?
Hi, I've read the many threads on here about MCC courses but some are a bid dated now.
I have recently passed my IR and I'm in a position to now do the MCC. I did the IR with Multiflight in Leeds as I only live 5 minutes away, which makes me eligible to do the course for £1500 and obviously live at home saving expenses. Problem is its on a BE200.
I have a few friends, one of which is currently doing a TR with Ryanair, and they are urging me to go and do the course and a joc at either European or CRM. I'm sure doing the course in a jet would help me out further down the line, but is it absolutely necessary? Its all done on the 747-400 now at European so a mcc/joc costs £3330. Is that outlay worth it?
Has anyone had experience on the new 744 at European? Would it honestly help me out with selections/job prospects?
(If I do the mcc at multiflight I plan on doing a joc at some point as well)
I have recently passed my IR and I'm in a position to now do the MCC. I did the IR with Multiflight in Leeds as I only live 5 minutes away, which makes me eligible to do the course for £1500 and obviously live at home saving expenses. Problem is its on a BE200.
I have a few friends, one of which is currently doing a TR with Ryanair, and they are urging me to go and do the course and a joc at either European or CRM. I'm sure doing the course in a jet would help me out further down the line, but is it absolutely necessary? Its all done on the 747-400 now at European so a mcc/joc costs £3330. Is that outlay worth it?
Has anyone had experience on the new 744 at European? Would it honestly help me out with selections/job prospects?
(If I do the mcc at multiflight I plan on doing a joc at some point as well)
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T/P vs Jet
Good question!
An MCC course is about learning to work on a multi crew flight deck employing all the CRM skills learnt from ground school, putting them into practice in the sim. Therefore the sim you do it on should not be too complex, it's not a type rating course (744 may be a touch over the top in complexity and money?!) Doing it on a BE200 or EFIS jet sim is a good idea as you can get the most out of the CRM side of the course and not get too tied up learning the aeroplane itself.
I did mine at CRM Aviation Europe and wholly endorse their course. I guess as you live near Multiflight it's a tough one to weigh up between CRM Aviation and Multiflight. You may want to look at the instructors they have and also reliability of the sim, which is important. Good luck.
An MCC course is about learning to work on a multi crew flight deck employing all the CRM skills learnt from ground school, putting them into practice in the sim. Therefore the sim you do it on should not be too complex, it's not a type rating course (744 may be a touch over the top in complexity and money?!) Doing it on a BE200 or EFIS jet sim is a good idea as you can get the most out of the CRM side of the course and not get too tied up learning the aeroplane itself.
I did mine at CRM Aviation Europe and wholly endorse their course. I guess as you live near Multiflight it's a tough one to weigh up between CRM Aviation and Multiflight. You may want to look at the instructors they have and also reliability of the sim, which is important. Good luck.
Last edited by Pete Saunders; 4th Oct 2012 at 10:46.
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I used European and the 727-200 in 2008. Our "classroom" training was a joke, my partner spoke virtually no English, and we were basically given the simulator. In addition to the incredibly vague, half-assed instruction, we flew an additional 10-15 hours free of charge. Course was fine for general handling, but the MCC aspect was near criminal for lack of focus, cohesion, and purpose. CONCLUSION: It is very little about the simulator, and the instruction is MUCH MUCH more important.
Last edited by beardedclam; 2nd Oct 2012 at 17:52.
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I did mine on 737, Joc on 747. And have similar views on the unprofessional approach to CRM at European
The CRM elements of the course are lost as you try to keep up with and fly the aircraft. Our instructor (a TRI) was 100% concerned with the Jets operation, not CRM. I think he was actually running a type rating course with a group from Africa along side our MCC - sometimes I think he forgot which sim session he was in, as we got constant bollockings (from minute 1 of being in the sim) for not operating the aircraft exactly by the book.
So if I was doing it again I'd go for a good MCC rather than an 'MCC in a jet' which is more about the jet itself than CRM.
Then look at a JOC and take your pick....
The CRM elements of the course are lost as you try to keep up with and fly the aircraft. Our instructor (a TRI) was 100% concerned with the Jets operation, not CRM. I think he was actually running a type rating course with a group from Africa along side our MCC - sometimes I think he forgot which sim session he was in, as we got constant bollockings (from minute 1 of being in the sim) for not operating the aircraft exactly by the book.
So if I was doing it again I'd go for a good MCC rather than an 'MCC in a jet' which is more about the jet itself than CRM.
Then look at a JOC and take your pick....
Last edited by clunk1001; 2nd Oct 2012 at 18:07.
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I know for a fact that some airlines will prefer if you have done the MCC in a jet and not on a King Air B200. Just make sure you take this into account when choosing where to do your MCC.
I did mine at European Skybus. Great place. The instructor spent many more hours than he needed to on teaching us how the systems worked and how to go through the checklist properly. Although I will admit, he was staying in the same accommodation I was staying at.
I did mine at European Skybus. Great place. The instructor spent many more hours than he needed to on teaching us how the systems worked and how to go through the checklist properly. Although I will admit, he was staying in the same accommodation I was staying at.
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I'd heard the saying that "some airlines will prefer if you have done the MCC in a jet".
I know that some do like to see a JOC course (and will state this on their application requirements - Jet2 for example), but I've never physically seen the requirement to have done the MCC in a Jet. Except perhaps for the RYR MCC, which I dont think exists in the form it used to years ago.
I'd be interested to know who your thinking of AlexanderH?
Having done it, a handful of hours in a Jet sim will not make any difference to your employability as a Pilot. But it would probably improve your confidence during your first jet sim check........if you get one.
I know that some do like to see a JOC course (and will state this on their application requirements - Jet2 for example), but I've never physically seen the requirement to have done the MCC in a Jet. Except perhaps for the RYR MCC, which I dont think exists in the form it used to years ago.
I'd be interested to know who your thinking of AlexanderH?
Having done it, a handful of hours in a Jet sim will not make any difference to your employability as a Pilot. But it would probably improve your confidence during your first jet sim check........if you get one.
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Most of your multi crew training will be on line training, doing it on a Jet so long as you don't spend too much time on automatics will help you with Sim assessments because it's quite surprising the change in performance.
I don't think it matters all that much TBH but doing it on a jet wont turn off Turboprop operators, doing it on a BE200 may turn off a Jet carrier.
I don't think it matters all that much TBH but doing it on a jet wont turn off Turboprop operators, doing it on a BE200 may turn off a Jet carrier.
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As a lot of you know I set up the MCC course at European.
Beardedclam. I believe you are mistaken as the B727 sim was never used for MCC and is not approved to do it. The only simulators used at European were the B737 and the L1011.
I do not have anything more to do with European and have not for some time so I am unaware of the B744 operation. I would say that it seems very expensive and would not help you in the future.
I did some instructiiong for CRM Europe for a short while. The course is based around the same one as European. The sim is good as are most of the instructors. Whlist I was there the paperwork and checklists were a mess, but if that is now sorted I would recommend them.
Beardedclam. I believe you are mistaken as the B727 sim was never used for MCC and is not approved to do it. The only simulators used at European were the B737 and the L1011.
I do not have anything more to do with European and have not for some time so I am unaware of the B744 operation. I would say that it seems very expensive and would not help you in the future.
I did some instructiiong for CRM Europe for a short while. The course is based around the same one as European. The sim is good as are most of the instructors. Whlist I was there the paperwork and checklists were a mess, but if that is now sorted I would recommend them.
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Not being a wannabe, my opinon is this.
Do it as cheaply as you can, after all it could be months before you get a interview.
As to Joc and Jet2, I would love to know who said that.
By doing your MCC at Multiflight you will save £1800
That should get you a good few hours in a decent 737 sim.
Do it as cheaply as you can, after all it could be months before you get a interview.
As to Joc and Jet2, I would love to know who said that.
By doing your MCC at Multiflight you will save £1800
That should get you a good few hours in a decent 737 sim.
Last edited by ford cortina; 4th Oct 2012 at 06:52.
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re Jet2 and JOC, I recall it was on their website and the online application I filled out for them in 2010 for low houred fATPL. They havent advertised low hour fATPL recruitment for some time so couldnt comment on whether its still the case.
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MCC - Is it an advantage to do in a Jet?
Fully agree with Ford Cortina. I did my MCC at Multiflight to save the money for a pre-assessment sim ride and I enjoyed the course. The importance of MCC is to learn CRM.
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Don't be lured into paying more to do it in a jet. It's not about manual handling at all, more about checklists and co-operation with your co-pilot. Did mine in a Beech 200 sim, been RHS A320 since 2006.
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I did the MCC course in a jet simulator as well as a JOC and am glad that I did.
The points made about the MCC being a CRM exercise rather than a flying one are very valid however we have to accept certain facts. One of which is that whilst nobody is going to employ you on account of your jet-based MCC you are better-placed for a sim check in a jet if you do one.
The points made about the MCC being a CRM exercise rather than a flying one are very valid however we have to accept certain facts. One of which is that whilst nobody is going to employ you on account of your jet-based MCC you are better-placed for a sim check in a jet if you do one.
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I totally agree with the the posts about keeping the cost down and learning CRM, not usuing to much capacity for learning the type. You'll be evaluated on your CRM in a sim check, not type familiarity.
Either go to Multiflight and do it on the BE200 or CRM Aviation Europe on the jet. Both seem to be £1750.
Brilliant course at CRM Aviation. 4 of us have done it there. Its at a pretty cool airfield to
fordcortina - I agree with you although make sure you meet or understand who the instructors are and their experience. You can learn alot from them.
Either go to Multiflight and do it on the BE200 or CRM Aviation Europe on the jet. Both seem to be £1750.
Brilliant course at CRM Aviation. 4 of us have done it there. Its at a pretty cool airfield to
fordcortina - I agree with you although make sure you meet or understand who the instructors are and their experience. You can learn alot from them.
