IR conversion deadline
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IR conversion deadline
Hello,
Hope someone can help me with this...
1) Seated last time for JAA ATPL exams in March 2010. According to the 36 month rule i shall obtain an IR rating until March 2013, right? I'm considering taking it in the US so i will need a conversion afterwards. My question is: does the conversion also must be done until this date or not? I just ask because i'm also planning to to do the CPL and ME rating (when possible :/) and of course i would prefer to do the conversion altogether.
2) Anyone with a recomendation or suggestion of a school in Europe where i can take the IR rating at an affordable price and within a month or 2? I'm just considering to do it in the US due to the costs involved and because it normally is quite quicker...
Thanks a lot in advance!
Hope someone can help me with this...
1) Seated last time for JAA ATPL exams in March 2010. According to the 36 month rule i shall obtain an IR rating until March 2013, right? I'm considering taking it in the US so i will need a conversion afterwards. My question is: does the conversion also must be done until this date or not? I just ask because i'm also planning to to do the CPL and ME rating (when possible :/) and of course i would prefer to do the conversion altogether.
2) Anyone with a recomendation or suggestion of a school in Europe where i can take the IR rating at an affordable price and within a month or 2? I'm just considering to do it in the US due to the costs involved and because it normally is quite quicker...
Thanks a lot in advance!
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I think the original intention was that it could be an ICAO IR, but that all seems to have changed. I suspect you will need to get the conversion done within that time.
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Does an FAA IR not 'freeze' the exams anymore?
It never did for initial issue. You have (and had) to have applied for the issue of both a JAA CPL and a JAA IR within the thirty six months.
The thing that changed in December 2010 was:
Prior to that date, an ICAO IR kept your JAA IR 'current' so that you could let your JAA IR lapse by as long as you liked providing you kept your ICAO IR current.
After that date, an ICAO IR no longer keeps your JAA IR current if you let your JAA IR lapse for more than 7 years. So, even if your ICAO IR is current, you would have to redo your ATPL ground exams if your JAA IR lapses for more than 7 years.
It never did for initial issue. You have (and had) to have applied for the issue of both a JAA CPL and a JAA IR within the thirty six months.
The thing that changed in December 2010 was:
Prior to that date, an ICAO IR kept your JAA IR 'current' so that you could let your JAA IR lapse by as long as you liked providing you kept your ICAO IR current.
After that date, an ICAO IR no longer keeps your JAA IR current if you let your JAA IR lapse for more than 7 years. So, even if your ICAO IR is current, you would have to redo your ATPL ground exams if your JAA IR lapses for more than 7 years.
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So, even if your ICAO IR is current, you would have to redo your ATPL ground exams if your JAA IR lapses for more than 7 years.
This 7 year expiry is catching out a lot of airline pilots who went to work outside Europe, and now they cannot come back to work in Europe because of what they have to do to recover their JAA CPL/IRs.
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I dont know the answer to question (1)
One suggestion for completing quickly in Europe is to do a SEIR, assuming you already have a CPL its only 40 hours. The downside is that many schools (in my experience) do not have a SE simulator so you would have to do it all in the aircraft
Just a thought ..... a few people at the school I sometimes teach the IR at have done this under the same circumstances as you and then converted to MEIR later
One suggestion for completing quickly in Europe is to do a SEIR, assuming you already have a CPL its only 40 hours. The downside is that many schools (in my experience) do not have a SE simulator so you would have to do it all in the aircraft
Just a thought ..... a few people at the school I sometimes teach the IR at have done this under the same circumstances as you and then converted to MEIR later
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As Linda stated, the FAA (or any other ICAO IR) will not lock-in your ATPL Theory.
You had also better hold off from going down the FAA conversion route.
It appears that, with effect from 17th September 2012, the only credits available towards an EASA Part-FCL IR are the 10 hours you get for holding an EASA Part-FCL CPL (or a Basic Instrument Flight Module Course Completion Certificate).
This is outlined in EASA EU Regulation 1178/2011, Annex I, Sub-Part G and Appendix 6, Paragraph 10.1.
10.1. The holder of a CPL(A) or of a Course Completion Certificate for the Basic Instrument Flight Module may have the total amount of training required in paragraphs 7 or 8 above reduced by 10 hours.
There are NO credits available towards an EASA Part-FCL IR for holding an ICAO IR, unless you hold an ICAO ATPL whereby you can go down the ATPL Validation/Conversion process (providing you meet the criteria for issue of an EASA Part-FCL ATPL).
It is a right can of worms and how this has come about is anybody's guess but essentially the 15 hour ICAO IR conversion process will soon disappear.
We are trying to get to the bottom of this but it does not look promising.
Strike another blow for EASA!
As stated above the best way to get the theory locked in is to do a SEIR before your ATPL theory expires in March 2013, then worry about the conversion later. But to lock the theory you will need to do both the CPL and the IR.
To renew an expired (more than 7 years) IR you need to retake all examinations relevant to the level at which you wish to use the IR, undertake training as required (as determined by the Head of Training at the chosen ATO) and retake the Skills Test.
You had also better hold off from going down the FAA conversion route.
It appears that, with effect from 17th September 2012, the only credits available towards an EASA Part-FCL IR are the 10 hours you get for holding an EASA Part-FCL CPL (or a Basic Instrument Flight Module Course Completion Certificate).
This is outlined in EASA EU Regulation 1178/2011, Annex I, Sub-Part G and Appendix 6, Paragraph 10.1.
10.1. The holder of a CPL(A) or of a Course Completion Certificate for the Basic Instrument Flight Module may have the total amount of training required in paragraphs 7 or 8 above reduced by 10 hours.
There are NO credits available towards an EASA Part-FCL IR for holding an ICAO IR, unless you hold an ICAO ATPL whereby you can go down the ATPL Validation/Conversion process (providing you meet the criteria for issue of an EASA Part-FCL ATPL).
It is a right can of worms and how this has come about is anybody's guess but essentially the 15 hour ICAO IR conversion process will soon disappear.
We are trying to get to the bottom of this but it does not look promising.
Strike another blow for EASA!
As stated above the best way to get the theory locked in is to do a SEIR before your ATPL theory expires in March 2013, then worry about the conversion later. But to lock the theory you will need to do both the CPL and the IR.
To renew an expired (more than 7 years) IR you need to retake all examinations relevant to the level at which you wish to use the IR, undertake training as required (as determined by the Head of Training at the chosen ATO) and retake the Skills Test.
Last edited by 2close; 26th Jul 2012 at 16:54.
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2 close states:
There are NO credits available towards an EASA Part-FCL IR for holding an ICAO IR, unless you hold an ICAO ATPL whereby you can go down the ATPL Validation/Conversion process (providing you meet the criteria for issue of an EASA Part-FCL ATPL).
Not quite true:
Article 8 of the Aircrew Regulation states:
Conditions for the acceptance of licences from third countries
1. Without prejudice to Article 12 of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 and where there are no agreements concluded between the Union and a third country covering pilot licensing, Member States may accept third country licences, and associated medical certificates issued by or on behalf of third countries, in accordance with the provisions of Annex III to this Regulation.
2. Applicants for Part–FCL licences already holding at least an equivalent licence, rating or certificate issued in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention by a third country shall comply with all the requirements of Annex I to this Regulation, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specifictraining hours may be reduced.
3. The credit given to the applicant shall be determined by the Member State to which the pilot applies on the basis of a recommendation from an approved training organisation.
The CAA has stated to me in writing:
If a student has already started before 17th September he can continue. From 17th September it will be for ATOs to make a proposal in each specific case depending upon an assessment of the pilot. If that proposal is equivalent to past practice it is likely that we will accept it, but at present we do not intend at present to publish specific terms.
So it looks as though the 15 hour IR conversion course can continue, possibly even less than this for very experienced pilots. It will be up to the ATO to determine the number of hours and to get the CAA's permission to do that level of training.
There are NO credits available towards an EASA Part-FCL IR for holding an ICAO IR, unless you hold an ICAO ATPL whereby you can go down the ATPL Validation/Conversion process (providing you meet the criteria for issue of an EASA Part-FCL ATPL).
Not quite true:
Article 8 of the Aircrew Regulation states:
Conditions for the acceptance of licences from third countries
1. Without prejudice to Article 12 of Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 and where there are no agreements concluded between the Union and a third country covering pilot licensing, Member States may accept third country licences, and associated medical certificates issued by or on behalf of third countries, in accordance with the provisions of Annex III to this Regulation.
2. Applicants for Part–FCL licences already holding at least an equivalent licence, rating or certificate issued in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention by a third country shall comply with all the requirements of Annex I to this Regulation, except that the requirements of course duration, number of lessons and specifictraining hours may be reduced.
3. The credit given to the applicant shall be determined by the Member State to which the pilot applies on the basis of a recommendation from an approved training organisation.
The CAA has stated to me in writing:
If a student has already started before 17th September he can continue. From 17th September it will be for ATOs to make a proposal in each specific case depending upon an assessment of the pilot. If that proposal is equivalent to past practice it is likely that we will accept it, but at present we do not intend at present to publish specific terms.
So it looks as though the 15 hour IR conversion course can continue, possibly even less than this for very experienced pilots. It will be up to the ATO to determine the number of hours and to get the CAA's permission to do that level of training.
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Thanks for the info Linda,
Interestingly, I also have written confirmation from the Licensing & Training Standards Policy of the United Kingdom, Civil Aviation Authority which clearly states that the only credits available for an IR conversion are by doing an integrated CPL/IR (which we both know is totally pointless) or the 10 hours credited from holding an EASA Part-FCL CPL / BIFM Course Completion Certificate.
This obviously contradicts what you've been informed (contradictory information coming out of the CAA - unheard of surely!). May I suggest we put our collective heads together to get this sorted as our students are seriously hacked off with the uncertainty. I'll drop you a PM with my contact details.
Whilst I sincerly hope that your correspondence carries far more weight than mine, what I do note from your post is that it states:
"2. Applicants for Part–FCL licences already holding at least an equivalent licence, rating or certificate...."
We are talking about an applicant for a rating NOT a licence and personally I feel it is inexcusable that it is not stated clearly within the applicable Regulation, AMC, GM or CAP 804 (
). It's not rocket science to put things in clear, unequivocal terms.
Hopefully, speak later.
Interestingly, I also have written confirmation from the Licensing & Training Standards Policy of the United Kingdom, Civil Aviation Authority which clearly states that the only credits available for an IR conversion are by doing an integrated CPL/IR (which we both know is totally pointless) or the 10 hours credited from holding an EASA Part-FCL CPL / BIFM Course Completion Certificate.
This obviously contradicts what you've been informed (contradictory information coming out of the CAA - unheard of surely!). May I suggest we put our collective heads together to get this sorted as our students are seriously hacked off with the uncertainty. I'll drop you a PM with my contact details.
Whilst I sincerly hope that your correspondence carries far more weight than mine, what I do note from your post is that it states:
"2. Applicants for Part–FCL licences already holding at least an equivalent licence, rating or certificate...."
We are talking about an applicant for a rating NOT a licence and personally I feel it is inexcusable that it is not stated clearly within the applicable Regulation, AMC, GM or CAP 804 (
). It's not rocket science to put things in clear, unequivocal terms.Hopefully, speak later.
