View Poll Results: Which INTEGRATED school is best?
BAE Systems (Europe)
31
42.47%
Oxford
25
34.25%
Cabair
10
13.70%
Western Michigan Uni
7
9.59%
Voters: 73. This poll is closed
Would you recommend your Integrated course?
Guest
Posts: n/a
If you can afford an Integrated course go for it Flygirl!
Im doing modular because it is quicker to earn and save £35K (Also I like the fact that as I save the money I can do the training bit by bit) than to earn and save £60k for integrated. I.e, if I had £60K I would do integrated. How are you all affording integrated courses?
I've considered professional studies loans from HSBC, but I don't have anything to secure the loan on.
I've just started studying for ground exams part time. The earth is an oblate spheriod you know!
Im doing modular because it is quicker to earn and save £35K (Also I like the fact that as I save the money I can do the training bit by bit) than to earn and save £60k for integrated. I.e, if I had £60K I would do integrated. How are you all affording integrated courses?
I've considered professional studies loans from HSBC, but I don't have anything to secure the loan on.
I've just started studying for ground exams part time. The earth is an oblate spheriod you know!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
From: Work associated address
Well myself am looking at Cabair,Oxford or Jerez(Bae) to do my CPL/ME/IR.Though like yourself I already have my PPL and have chosen to go along the route of the modular course on a full time basis.Aswell as this I'd be doing the ATPL groundschool full-time.Like mentioned most pupils only go to 1 FTO,so poll is a wee bit useless in the genuine sense for what you intend to get from it.Better I think to trawl through all that has been mentioned about the schools fo your choice by using the "search" method.
Never know may see you out at Jerez next year !!
Regards+Cheers
Never know may see you out at Jerez next year !!
Regards+Cheers
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: UK
It really comes down to money...
Or am I wrong? Buying an ab-initio is perhaps the most tempting thing to do (afterall, the various offers often sound very good!). But I cannot understand why someone would do this (unless you have loads of £). Nowadays, you seldom get any good job offers just because you've completed an ab-initio at a respected aviation school. You need to be rated. Period. I would go for the module courses which is in almost evey case a cheaper alternative. Especially you Flygirl who already got a PPL!
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: Europe
It's seems that any time the integrated v modular comes up that you get the people who have hired pilots before coming on and saying that they don't take into account where and how a licence was attained just as long as it was attained when hiring.
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Ahhhhh the wannabes section
I haven't been here for some time and i have to say i missed you.
Why haven't i been viewing these hallowed pages?.......Well thats quite simple i got a job.
Flygirl
You go with what you feel is best but i do recommend the following research.
Ask every school how many of thier Intergrated students have got into the airlines.
Ask the airlines that you are targeting what type of training they prefer.
What facilities do the schools have to get thier students into jobs.
What are the success and first time pass rates etc etc.
I know my chief pilot likes Intergrated for many reasons which im not going to go into here.
Those of you who dismiss Intergrated or CAP 509 as it was known when i did it must ask youself this question.
Why did BA, BMI, BY, EI even VS all have sponsored "intergrated course" Cadets. I dont profess to know, but there must be a good reason why they did it.
40 year flyer excellent advice!
Also those of you who treated flygirl with such disdain note the following.
I fly with captains who display the same bad attitude and guess what they are not the best pilots in the company, crap to fly with and worst of all universally hated.
So wind your neck in and listen before you talk and be aware that other people have opinions some good some bad but the mark of the man/woman is being able to accept just that.
flygirl never appologise for asking a question as there is no such thing as a stupid one only the odd stupid answer.
From my experiences of Intergrated i would highly recommend it.
You go Girl
I haven't been here for some time and i have to say i missed you.
Why haven't i been viewing these hallowed pages?.......Well thats quite simple i got a job.
Flygirl
You go with what you feel is best but i do recommend the following research.
Ask every school how many of thier Intergrated students have got into the airlines.
Ask the airlines that you are targeting what type of training they prefer.
What facilities do the schools have to get thier students into jobs.
What are the success and first time pass rates etc etc.
I know my chief pilot likes Intergrated for many reasons which im not going to go into here.
Those of you who dismiss Intergrated or CAP 509 as it was known when i did it must ask youself this question.
Why did BA, BMI, BY, EI even VS all have sponsored "intergrated course" Cadets. I dont profess to know, but there must be a good reason why they did it.
40 year flyer excellent advice!
Also those of you who treated flygirl with such disdain note the following.
I fly with captains who display the same bad attitude and guess what they are not the best pilots in the company, crap to fly with and worst of all universally hated.
So wind your neck in and listen before you talk and be aware that other people have opinions some good some bad but the mark of the man/woman is being able to accept just that.
flygirl never appologise for asking a question as there is no such thing as a stupid one only the odd stupid answer.
From my experiences of Intergrated i would highly recommend it.
You go Girl
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: UK
I know my chief pilot likes Intergrated for many reasons which im not going to go into here.
) and then get a rating! I can't see how an intergrated course would give you any advantages when all the companies are looking for is a rating... or am I wrong?
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Olof
You are both right and wrong.
Some airlines will take you on with a type raing in tow but you will find tha most will probably type you again using their SOP's.
And some will positively not take you on with a rating as they look on it as too much trouble to get you out of the TRTO's way of thinking which may clash with thiers.
It's all a bit of a lottery really.
The one thing that i have found that is the best way to get a job in this market regardless of your experience is a personal recommendation.
Your with a crew for the best part of a day and many CP's only want to know if you can get on with them.
I did an Intergrated course and before i did so i called the airlines and asked them what they prefered.
Some said "modular", some..." don't really care" but the majority said "intergrated".
The one thing about an intergrated course is that it is a known quantity. They train you to be an airline pilot from day one. You report when the rosta says so. The uniform gets you used to wearing one on line (some of our pilots hate wearing it).
The regular progress checks gets you prepared for OPC's,LPC's etc.
But most of all is that it is a hard one right for a school to conduct and regularly checked by the relavant authority.
There is a mantra of discipline instilled in you from day one which i took with me when i became an instructor and battered my students with until i thought they met the grade. And yes they did appreciate it.
When the market is desperate for crews they will take anybody. But when its like it is now (getting better but still slow) they will take what they know is a tried and trusted (albeit not infallable) method of producing airline pilots.
This argument has been raging for years and im sure for many to come.
But the facts speak for themselves but how you read them is when the fun starts.
You are both right and wrong.
Some airlines will take you on with a type raing in tow but you will find tha most will probably type you again using their SOP's.
And some will positively not take you on with a rating as they look on it as too much trouble to get you out of the TRTO's way of thinking which may clash with thiers.
It's all a bit of a lottery really.
The one thing that i have found that is the best way to get a job in this market regardless of your experience is a personal recommendation.
Your with a crew for the best part of a day and many CP's only want to know if you can get on with them.
I did an Intergrated course and before i did so i called the airlines and asked them what they prefered.
Some said "modular", some..." don't really care" but the majority said "intergrated".
The one thing about an intergrated course is that it is a known quantity. They train you to be an airline pilot from day one. You report when the rosta says so. The uniform gets you used to wearing one on line (some of our pilots hate wearing it).
The regular progress checks gets you prepared for OPC's,LPC's etc.
But most of all is that it is a hard one right for a school to conduct and regularly checked by the relavant authority.
There is a mantra of discipline instilled in you from day one which i took with me when i became an instructor and battered my students with until i thought they met the grade. And yes they did appreciate it.
When the market is desperate for crews they will take anybody. But when its like it is now (getting better but still slow) they will take what they know is a tried and trusted (albeit not infallable) method of producing airline pilots.
This argument has been raging for years and im sure for many to come.
But the facts speak for themselves but how you read them is when the fun starts.
Last edited by flaps to 60; 14th July 2004 at 15:02.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: uk
Nice one "flaps to 60"
Flygirl, i'm with you all the way!
I don't want to get into a fight about the usual Integrated Vs Modular, but this is how I see it:
If i do Modular then there IS a chance that SOME airlines might discriminate me because of this. However, if I do Integrated then i know for SURE that NO airline will discriminate me because i done Integrated!
So ladies and gentlemen, you tell me which is a safer bet!
(because that's what it is at the end of the day)!!!!!!!
Jam
Flygirl, i'm with you all the way!
I don't want to get into a fight about the usual Integrated Vs Modular, but this is how I see it:
If i do Modular then there IS a chance that SOME airlines might discriminate me because of this. However, if I do Integrated then i know for SURE that NO airline will discriminate me because i done Integrated!
So ladies and gentlemen, you tell me which is a safer bet!
(because that's what it is at the end of the day)!!!!!!!
Jam
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Ps
To the people that believe that an intergrated course is "not the way to go".
Please ask EZY and TCUK why they are funding cadets on an intergrated course. They reply may answer all your doubts.
And Jam123 has a point ie better the devil you know etc.
To the people that believe that an intergrated course is "not the way to go".
Please ask EZY and TCUK why they are funding cadets on an intergrated course. They reply may answer all your doubts.
And Jam123 has a point ie better the devil you know etc.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: UK
I do think that your arguments are good ones fllaps. However, I have a hard time seeing how an intergrated course will give you that much advantage when looking for a job. I mean look at EZY, I can't read anywhere about them preferring the intergrated before the modular... (yes they do have the cadet program and of course this would be a great way to start but not all will get accepted) The same with CTC... to apply you need the certificates but how you got them doesn't really matter. I believe the real competition starts when you got the rating. I haven't heard of ANY pilot lately who has got a job right after completing the basics (CPL/ME/IR).
Some of my friends got the chance to work for Ryanair a year ago. The deal was like this: You buy the rating and we'll offer you a job. I think this is way you will get employed in the future (unfortuantely)...
Some of my friends got the chance to work for Ryanair a year ago. The deal was like this: You buy the rating and we'll offer you a job. I think this is way you will get employed in the future (unfortuantely)...
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Olof
BMI regional and Logan Air have both recently taken on 200hr pilots and if my sources are correct they were all intergrated guys.
My airline took on a couple recently.
Its the old good training versus variable experience.
If you hang around Oxford long enough you see will the intergrated guys getting the jobs before the modular.
Before 9/11 BA was short of cadets and Oxford advertised that "suitable" self sponsored intergrated course pilots were being sent to BA for interview.
Now one example doesn't prove the theory but it certainly may resolve some people's dilema on which way to go.
Please dont believe that i think that Intergrated guys are better pilots because im the proof that thier not.
But what it does prove and i think that if you asked all the airlines this is that they are a known quantity to the airline and may well adapt to airline life better than some.
Some people like petrol cars some diesel. They both get you from A-B but its the manner in which they do it that makes the difference.
Most airlines have made up thier mind which they prefer when they have a choice. But when they dont it doesn't matter whether you got your licence from Readers Digest or the best school in the world. All their interested in is keeping the schedule going.
Some airlines are moving to the pay for your rating and get a job. It's an unfortunate way to go but if you can afford it go for it. Its better to be up there thinking "oh my word what have i just spent to see this". Than down here wishing you were up there at any cost.
I was lucky as my employer payed for everything and many still will because they have you bonded for 2-3 years.
For all of you with the quandry of where to spend your or the banks money good luck.
Which ever way you go when you get the job you wont remember any of this.
BMI regional and Logan Air have both recently taken on 200hr pilots and if my sources are correct they were all intergrated guys.
My airline took on a couple recently.
Its the old good training versus variable experience.
If you hang around Oxford long enough you see will the intergrated guys getting the jobs before the modular.
Before 9/11 BA was short of cadets and Oxford advertised that "suitable" self sponsored intergrated course pilots were being sent to BA for interview.
Now one example doesn't prove the theory but it certainly may resolve some people's dilema on which way to go.
Please dont believe that i think that Intergrated guys are better pilots because im the proof that thier not.
But what it does prove and i think that if you asked all the airlines this is that they are a known quantity to the airline and may well adapt to airline life better than some.
Some people like petrol cars some diesel. They both get you from A-B but its the manner in which they do it that makes the difference.
Most airlines have made up thier mind which they prefer when they have a choice. But when they dont it doesn't matter whether you got your licence from Readers Digest or the best school in the world. All their interested in is keeping the schedule going.
Some airlines are moving to the pay for your rating and get a job. It's an unfortunate way to go but if you can afford it go for it. Its better to be up there thinking "oh my word what have i just spent to see this". Than down here wishing you were up there at any cost.
I was lucky as my employer payed for everything and many still will because they have you bonded for 2-3 years.
For all of you with the quandry of where to spend your or the banks money good luck.
Which ever way you go when you get the job you wont remember any of this.
Last edited by flaps to 60; 14th July 2004 at 16:32.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
From: BFS
I haven't looked at this thread for ages - I thought it was a badly put question and hence would be full of the usual arguments and self justification.
Flaps to 60 - you say you trained when it was the 509 system. I think you miss the point of a full time modular course as opposed to the self improver.
Their reply may indeed surprise you, given that their cadets are in fact following a modular course.
Don't think it has any relevance, it was a vastly different market then.
I know of 3 guys taken on by Logan recently - 2 of which were modular. I know for a fact EZY don't care where you came from as long as you have a licence and min hours. Modular gives you more of these hours therefore I feel your comments may be mis-construed as there is firm evidence it doesn't matter.
SK
Flaps to 60 - you say you trained when it was the 509 system. I think you miss the point of a full time modular course as opposed to the self improver.
Please ask EZY and TCUK why they are funding cadets on an intergrated course. They reply may answer all your doubts.
Now one example doesn't prove the theory but it certainly may resolve some people's dilema on which way to go.
I know of 3 guys taken on by Logan recently - 2 of which were modular. I know for a fact EZY don't care where you came from as long as you have a licence and min hours. Modular gives you more of these hours therefore I feel your comments may be mis-construed as there is firm evidence it doesn't matter.
SK
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Silverknapper
Check out www.ppjn.com and especially GB airways and BMI Regional.
They specifically state that for F/O's its intergrated that they want if i remember correctly its either that or 1500hrs for one of them. Flybe or JEA used to say Ab-intio 200hrs required everybody else 300hrs
I think your slightly confused on the sematics of this thread as a CAP 509 is the same as an intergrated course (overhauled with less flying hours) and ab-initio.
A modular course is what we used to call the Upgrade course from BCPL to frozen ATPL. Come to them with a PPL and the requisite number of hours gained anywhere and you do the "up grade to JAR FCL
The self improver 0-700hrs no longer exists.
Dont get me wrong if i ever made to to a CP then it would be the person rather than the qualifications that would seal the deal.
But be aware that some airlines do mark a line which some types of course pass and some don't.
At the moment its all about experience on type.
The EZY and TCUK are full time courses we used to call this intergrated.
Check out www.ppjn.com and especially GB airways and BMI Regional.
They specifically state that for F/O's its intergrated that they want if i remember correctly its either that or 1500hrs for one of them. Flybe or JEA used to say Ab-intio 200hrs required everybody else 300hrs
I think your slightly confused on the sematics of this thread as a CAP 509 is the same as an intergrated course (overhauled with less flying hours) and ab-initio.
A modular course is what we used to call the Upgrade course from BCPL to frozen ATPL. Come to them with a PPL and the requisite number of hours gained anywhere and you do the "up grade to JAR FCL
The self improver 0-700hrs no longer exists.
Dont get me wrong if i ever made to to a CP then it would be the person rather than the qualifications that would seal the deal.
But be aware that some airlines do mark a line which some types of course pass and some don't.
At the moment its all about experience on type.
The EZY and TCUK are full time courses we used to call this intergrated.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
From: UK
At the moment its all about experience on type.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,178
Likes: 0
From: BFS
From PPJN
Easyjet : fATPL
BA Citi: fATPL and 50 hours in last year if modular or integrated
No one specifies integrated.
They are the only UK airlines I could find on PPJN apart from Emerald who only mention relative experience. Will happily be proven wrong - may have missed something.
I am not caught up in semantics - I am very conversant with the whole system, though I fear you may not be up to speed on what a modular course entails. My point was I fear you may be giving slightly out of date advice.
The EZY scheme is a full time modular course.
This means that they are free to send their guys to the best school for each module, and not tied to one place. A modular course can be done in the same time as integrated, for £15k less and with more hours in the air. It is not the old self improver route, perhaps a modern day equivalent but more controlled. And at the end both have same licence, indeed most forms I have seen don't ask you to specify.
Nothing supports this these days. A while back I would agree yes, but not now.
Please don't take this as some sort of personal dispute, I certainly don't mean it to be. I only meant to get the point over about your cofusion over the EZY TCUK scheme. Don't mean to labour it.
Cheers
SK
Easyjet : fATPL
BA Citi: fATPL and 50 hours in last year if modular or integrated
No one specifies integrated.
They are the only UK airlines I could find on PPJN apart from Emerald who only mention relative experience. Will happily be proven wrong - may have missed something.
I am not caught up in semantics - I am very conversant with the whole system, though I fear you may not be up to speed on what a modular course entails. My point was I fear you may be giving slightly out of date advice.
The EZY scheme is a full time modular course.
This means that they are free to send their guys to the best school for each module, and not tied to one place. A modular course can be done in the same time as integrated, for £15k less and with more hours in the air. It is not the old self improver route, perhaps a modern day equivalent but more controlled. And at the end both have same licence, indeed most forms I have seen don't ask you to specify.
If you hang around Oxford long enough you see will the intergrated guys getting the jobs before the modular.
Please don't take this as some sort of personal dispute, I certainly don't mean it to be. I only meant to get the point over about your cofusion over the EZY TCUK scheme. Don't mean to labour it.
Cheers
SK
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: London
Silver
Not taken personally if i did then both you and i know i would not survive in this industry.
There is nothing wrong with healthy debate.
I have pasted the below from ppjn i doesnt prove the argument but provides more fuel for the fire.
From GB airways section of ppjn
F/O
DEP - Airbus A320/321 type rating prefered otherwise 1000 hours on EFIS Jet.
Cadet - Jerez or Oxford ab initio graduates with 200 hours.
From Bmi Regionals section of ppjn
F/O
Integrated course. Otherwise, 1500hours, MCC, significant multi time, etc.
Now asking new starts to pay for erj type rating. £3000 up front and then monthly.
As i am no longer an instructor maybe im out of date, but I can agree to disagree and hope that Flygirl and the others who have this happy dilema enjoy whatever course they take.
Not taken personally if i did then both you and i know i would not survive in this industry.
There is nothing wrong with healthy debate.
I have pasted the below from ppjn i doesnt prove the argument but provides more fuel for the fire.
From GB airways section of ppjn
F/O
DEP - Airbus A320/321 type rating prefered otherwise 1000 hours on EFIS Jet.
Cadet - Jerez or Oxford ab initio graduates with 200 hours.
From Bmi Regionals section of ppjn
F/O
Integrated course. Otherwise, 1500hours, MCC, significant multi time, etc.
Now asking new starts to pay for erj type rating. £3000 up front and then monthly.
As i am no longer an instructor maybe im out of date, but I can agree to disagree and hope that Flygirl and the others who have this happy dilema enjoy whatever course they take.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
From: UK
Just to put the record straight, Easy Jet cadets are modular. While on my brush-up course at Bristol in June, there were seven EZY cadets in there with me. They are not classified as being integrated. So there you go - one of the biggest airlines in Europe is training its cadets under the modular scheme.
Integrated today just means you do a full-time course at the same school. These EZY cadets do a bit in New Zealand, distance learning theory and their IR and type rating in the UK - all at different schools, hence they are modular. You can't go changing the definition of modular and integrated to suit your argument!!
I've no doubt that there a crusty chief pilots who remember the old 509 scheme and equate that with integrated today, but it is based out of ignorance, and probably a bit of successful lobbying from certain schools. And, if the 509 course was around today, I'd be on one.
What's really odd is that I know a few guys who joined BMI regional who were hour builders from the pre-JAA days - again some lobbying has clearly been done by certain schools.
So, to decide integrated or modular? It is a gamble that you have to work out; that the additional costs will get you up the queue quicker, or will save your CV from the bin. If you reckon it does, you have the money, and the opportunity cost makes sense, then do it. Unfortunately, PPRUNE is probably not the best place to ask the question - ask the airlines.
I can't quite work out why GB Airways specifies the school, as opposed to just integrated - what is wrong with Cabair integrated graduates? That seems more politically motivated than a judgement of standard, hence the whole reasoning is probably unfounded and ignorant.
Integrated today just means you do a full-time course at the same school. These EZY cadets do a bit in New Zealand, distance learning theory and their IR and type rating in the UK - all at different schools, hence they are modular. You can't go changing the definition of modular and integrated to suit your argument!!
I've no doubt that there a crusty chief pilots who remember the old 509 scheme and equate that with integrated today, but it is based out of ignorance, and probably a bit of successful lobbying from certain schools. And, if the 509 course was around today, I'd be on one.
What's really odd is that I know a few guys who joined BMI regional who were hour builders from the pre-JAA days - again some lobbying has clearly been done by certain schools.
So, to decide integrated or modular? It is a gamble that you have to work out; that the additional costs will get you up the queue quicker, or will save your CV from the bin. If you reckon it does, you have the money, and the opportunity cost makes sense, then do it. Unfortunately, PPRUNE is probably not the best place to ask the question - ask the airlines.
I can't quite work out why GB Airways specifies the school, as opposed to just integrated - what is wrong with Cabair integrated graduates? That seems more politically motivated than a judgement of standard, hence the whole reasoning is probably unfounded and ignorant.