faa-jaa
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It is a daft system. I have both JAA and FAA ATPLs & have worked in Europe and the US. There's no difference in ability between the pilots - we're all a liability until 500+ hours on type. In the U.S. you gain experience flying beat up cherokees around, in Europe you spend all the time studying books. Neither help much with the first airline job.
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Flare_you_fool yes I take your point about the degrees. However arn't these airlines 'cutting their nose off despite their face'. Surely if a training Captain or test pilot with a huge amount of hours and experience but no degree will still not gain employment?
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Every system is daft if you're on the outside and trying to get in. They're even dafter while you're inside trying to work your way through them. Once your through though it will be a sigh of relief, beers all around and sod those following. That's real life.
It's well worth reading Noggin's contribution on page one of this thread again. As long as there is no GA on the scale seen in the States, Canada and Australia, JAA requirements will only shift around a median rather than change in a revolutionary way.
As a regular reading this forum you will have a huge emotional and financial investment in this business. It's very difficult to detach yourself from that so let's try a sideways look at the problem.
Without very helpful parents or a scholarship, becoming a doctor, dentist, lawyer or similar professional is very expensive in America - sound familiar?? In fact it's far more expensive than you toddling off to your posh school of choice for a full 509 equivalent. So why don't they flood over here and to other 'cheap' countries for education?
Uhh, well - the qualifications aren't recognised back home without extensive courses aand re-examination. It's only slightly easier when you've gained a lot of experience and then return. Such qualifications are often only recognised by individual states in America so it requires further oral and written examination just to move jobs within the same country. Entire web sites are devoted to professionals having problems in moving between jusisdictions.
So, just accept the lumps that come with the status quo?
Nope, jump the hoops, train and qualify whichever way you judge best and remember, always remember. You're powerless now but won't be in the future - remember what you went or are going through.
All the pro's you see writing on other parts of this site went through the same thing, hated it just as much and promptly put it to the back of their minds once they got that first job. By the time they climb the slippery ladder to a position of influence it's all completely forgotten - just fodder for a few stories over a beer.
You're able to communicate like no wannabees have ever done before. I hope there's a core of you who will remember and, more importantly, will still remember in future years when you in a position to change things.
------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 04 June 2001).]
It's well worth reading Noggin's contribution on page one of this thread again. As long as there is no GA on the scale seen in the States, Canada and Australia, JAA requirements will only shift around a median rather than change in a revolutionary way.
As a regular reading this forum you will have a huge emotional and financial investment in this business. It's very difficult to detach yourself from that so let's try a sideways look at the problem.
Without very helpful parents or a scholarship, becoming a doctor, dentist, lawyer or similar professional is very expensive in America - sound familiar?? In fact it's far more expensive than you toddling off to your posh school of choice for a full 509 equivalent. So why don't they flood over here and to other 'cheap' countries for education?
Uhh, well - the qualifications aren't recognised back home without extensive courses aand re-examination. It's only slightly easier when you've gained a lot of experience and then return. Such qualifications are often only recognised by individual states in America so it requires further oral and written examination just to move jobs within the same country. Entire web sites are devoted to professionals having problems in moving between jusisdictions.
So, just accept the lumps that come with the status quo?
Nope, jump the hoops, train and qualify whichever way you judge best and remember, always remember. You're powerless now but won't be in the future - remember what you went or are going through.
All the pro's you see writing on other parts of this site went through the same thing, hated it just as much and promptly put it to the back of their minds once they got that first job. By the time they climb the slippery ladder to a position of influence it's all completely forgotten - just fodder for a few stories over a beer.
You're able to communicate like no wannabees have ever done before. I hope there's a core of you who will remember and, more importantly, will still remember in future years when you in a position to change things.
------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 04 June 2001).]
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Tarmach,
The scenario you describe suggests that thay don't get enough applicants with the 4 year degree. Some do get hired without the degree, however, there are lots of applicants fighting for jobs at the Majors. Contrary to speculation there are not enough jobs at the majors for everybody and if a 4 year degree is what they want, then you jump through the hoops.
Having said that, when times get tight they will drop the requirement and hire those without.
I do believe they accept the UK equivalent of the degree program ie 3 years.
Regards
FYF
The scenario you describe suggests that thay don't get enough applicants with the 4 year degree. Some do get hired without the degree, however, there are lots of applicants fighting for jobs at the Majors. Contrary to speculation there are not enough jobs at the majors for everybody and if a 4 year degree is what they want, then you jump through the hoops.
Having said that, when times get tight they will drop the requirement and hire those without.
I do believe they accept the UK equivalent of the degree program ie 3 years.
Regards
FYF
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I must say its increasingly difficult to imagine WHY anyone with FAA licenses should wish to leave the US market where pilots are in critically short supply...
What is often neglected in this particular debate is the cost of converting a JAA license to FAA. Why is this? Is it because very very few people ever do so? Why could that be? Is it because qualified EU pilots can't get permanent work permits in the US??
In fact if you tried it the FAA ask you to undertake a number of examinations and flight tests. Admittedly they are not as expensive as the JAA equivalents but then again the whole system IS cheaper out there so one would not expect them to hike the prices specifically for the JAA license comvertee *just because* he was 'used' to higher fees.
Its a two way street. Until we enter and EU-North America free trade agreement this status quo will remain. Which happens to be good news for EU Wannabes who now no longer face competing for jobs with USA pilots sporting 2000 Multi Hours running bank cheques and the like - work opportunities that simply do not exist in Europe.
There is no mileage in debating which system makes the best pilot. The statistics speak for themselves. No difference.
Its *ALWAYS* been difficult to become a pilot. Its actually easier now than 10 years ago *and* cheaper. By some margin.
Plus you have this forum.
Good luck one and all,
WWW
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 06 June 2001).]
What is often neglected in this particular debate is the cost of converting a JAA license to FAA. Why is this? Is it because very very few people ever do so? Why could that be? Is it because qualified EU pilots can't get permanent work permits in the US??
In fact if you tried it the FAA ask you to undertake a number of examinations and flight tests. Admittedly they are not as expensive as the JAA equivalents but then again the whole system IS cheaper out there so one would not expect them to hike the prices specifically for the JAA license comvertee *just because* he was 'used' to higher fees.
Its a two way street. Until we enter and EU-North America free trade agreement this status quo will remain. Which happens to be good news for EU Wannabes who now no longer face competing for jobs with USA pilots sporting 2000 Multi Hours running bank cheques and the like - work opportunities that simply do not exist in Europe.
There is no mileage in debating which system makes the best pilot. The statistics speak for themselves. No difference.
Its *ALWAYS* been difficult to become a pilot. Its actually easier now than 10 years ago *and* cheaper. By some margin.
Plus you have this forum.
Good luck one and all,
WWW
[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 06 June 2001).]
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The easy solution is to decide where you want to work and then get the relevant licences.
If you go to the US to start with then you MUST take the cost of conversion into account. Otherwise you end up in the fools' paradise you're in now.
As Pprune Towers pointed out, the situation is as bad or worse in other professions but one day you may be in a position to do something about it.
So learn by my lot,
(Which I know you will not,)
And learn about women(flying) from me!
If you go to the US to start with then you MUST take the cost of conversion into account. Otherwise you end up in the fools' paradise you're in now.
As Pprune Towers pointed out, the situation is as bad or worse in other professions but one day you may be in a position to do something about it.
So learn by my lot,
(Which I know you will not,)
And learn about women(flying) from me!
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Posts: n/a
WWW
Qualified US pilots don't convert to the JAA system they remain in the US to work. The ONLY reason there is such a large amount of people converting FAA to JAA is because all the european nationals come to the states to take advantage of the cheap flying.
Remember US nationals cannot just waltz over the pond and get a european job.
The cost to convert a full JAA ATPL with the required hours already achieved.
FAR 61.159
1500hrs total time
500hrs x-country
100hrs night
and 75 hours actual or simulated instrument in an aircraft runs to about 1500 dollars about 1000 pounds including flight training,written test and flight test fee.
This is considerably less than to convert FAA to JAA.
If flight training were cheaper in europe than the US then the visa applications for US nationals wanting to flight train in europe would go through the roof. In the capitalist economy that is the USA would the americans impose hefty overburdening restrictions on the US nationals returning with their cheap european licences wishing to convert to the required FAA.
No they would just lower the prices to compete and keep the training in their own country. Maybe it is something europe should look at.
Regards
FYF
Qualified US pilots don't convert to the JAA system they remain in the US to work. The ONLY reason there is such a large amount of people converting FAA to JAA is because all the european nationals come to the states to take advantage of the cheap flying.
Remember US nationals cannot just waltz over the pond and get a european job.
The cost to convert a full JAA ATPL with the required hours already achieved.
FAR 61.159
1500hrs total time
500hrs x-country
100hrs night
and 75 hours actual or simulated instrument in an aircraft runs to about 1500 dollars about 1000 pounds including flight training,written test and flight test fee.
This is considerably less than to convert FAA to JAA.
If flight training were cheaper in europe than the US then the visa applications for US nationals wanting to flight train in europe would go through the roof. In the capitalist economy that is the USA would the americans impose hefty overburdening restrictions on the US nationals returning with their cheap european licences wishing to convert to the required FAA.
No they would just lower the prices to compete and keep the training in their own country. Maybe it is something europe should look at.
Regards
FYF
Buy How to Get a Green Card - a book which list the dozen or so different ways to obtain a Green Card in the U.S.A.
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I completely agree with your last point.We really do need a sensible and efficient way of converting licenses.Lets face it if an FAA license was that unsafe no American pilot would be allowed to fly into any European city. The European Aviation community needs to get off its high horse and lose their holier than thou attitude and start encouraging aviation careers and flight training as opposed to making it impossible for people.
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malc4d, I have read thru the posts and many people have contributed valuable insight, but you just blindly ignore it. It is pretty annoying to read your posts. So let me make it very clear for you. 1. stop whining! 2. Decide where you want to grow up. In America, Europe, Africa, etc... 3. Go there 4. Do whatever it takes to get your airline job. If starting over with the CAA is the solution to you working in the country you want to be in, then do it. It will be expensive, but you are losing seniority the longer you whine about it.
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There is always a way, and the person who figures it out first wins
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There is always a way, and the person who figures it out first wins
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sorry to have been so quite. been on me hols.
well bigbeerbelly if you had read my mail u would have seen as some of the others have, all we want is a fair conversion test maybe we want to work in our own countries but after paying all our monies out not quite upto forking out another 20 - 30 grand
have a nice day
well bigbeerbelly if you had read my mail u would have seen as some of the others have, all we want is a fair conversion test maybe we want to work in our own countries but after paying all our monies out not quite upto forking out another 20 - 30 grand
have a nice day
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I'm not sure you can use Better to describe either system, just different. Clearly the eventual product, the experienced ATP, is basically the same from both sides of the pond. The problem is that there are a number of points on the way that do not correspond to each other.
We can see this in other spheres. A UK PhD is approximately the same as a US PhD, but the BSc is different. The result being that a UK PhD program will typically have little or no coursework compared to the US one. The end products are the same, but a US BSc entering into a UK PhD program is likely to be out of his/her ilk for a time.
Similarly with piloting, the JAA CPL/frozen ATPL has no real equivalent in the FAA world: A fresh FAA CPL is not ready to sit right seat in an airliner, because the system is not set up for that (although whether a fresh JAA FATPL is either is an open question
). Thus expecting an easy transfer to JAA CPL is not realistic.
On the other hand some maneuvers to only allow JAA training in member states is clearly just protectionist. The arguments about weather and terrain don't make much sense considering the wide variation of weather and terrain in the EU.
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]
We can see this in other spheres. A UK PhD is approximately the same as a US PhD, but the BSc is different. The result being that a UK PhD program will typically have little or no coursework compared to the US one. The end products are the same, but a US BSc entering into a UK PhD program is likely to be out of his/her ilk for a time.
Similarly with piloting, the JAA CPL/frozen ATPL has no real equivalent in the FAA world: A fresh FAA CPL is not ready to sit right seat in an airliner, because the system is not set up for that (although whether a fresh JAA FATPL is either is an open question
). Thus expecting an easy transfer to JAA CPL is not realistic. On the other hand some maneuvers to only allow JAA training in member states is clearly just protectionist. The arguments about weather and terrain don't make much sense considering the wide variation of weather and terrain in the EU.
[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: What was the DH again????? ]
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May I just say that I sympathise with Malc and his frustrations with the system of converting licenses. However, when it comes to it, if you really want to fly, and I think if you've come this far then you do, you're willing to do just about anything to do so.
The cost seems astronomical, but it's true to say that most US college graduates spend in the region of £40000 on a good college education, so it seems we all get stung somewhere.
I too have FAA licences and a little over 1000 hours, was teaching twin, commercial and instrument students, and now I have to do my whole IR again. Big pain in the arse and bank balance more to the point. I reassure myself with this:
a) there's a huge shortage of pilots here as well and so pilots have a huge bargaining advantage for better pay etc. Therefore, when we do get hired we'll be well paid.
b)Most US grads start out in the commuters, earning peanuts I'm told, about what I earned as an instructor. Where as here there is more chance you'll start on a well paid jet job.
c)I told all my students this is a frustrating and expensive profession and you need a lot of determination to succeed, don't lose sight of this.
Remember as pilots we are invaluable and the rewards will come, eventually, even if it means you have to beg, borrow and steal to get there.
The cost seems astronomical, but it's true to say that most US college graduates spend in the region of £40000 on a good college education, so it seems we all get stung somewhere.
I too have FAA licences and a little over 1000 hours, was teaching twin, commercial and instrument students, and now I have to do my whole IR again. Big pain in the arse and bank balance more to the point. I reassure myself with this:
a) there's a huge shortage of pilots here as well and so pilots have a huge bargaining advantage for better pay etc. Therefore, when we do get hired we'll be well paid.
b)Most US grads start out in the commuters, earning peanuts I'm told, about what I earned as an instructor. Where as here there is more chance you'll start on a well paid jet job.
c)I told all my students this is a frustrating and expensive profession and you need a lot of determination to succeed, don't lose sight of this.
Remember as pilots we are invaluable and the rewards will come, eventually, even if it means you have to beg, borrow and steal to get there.
