faa-jaa
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faa-jaa
Just how many people have the FAA cpl and would like to fly in, and have the work permit for, Europe?.
It can not be that many people. Is that why its being made politicly hard for us FAA holders to convert ?
( no yankbashing please, they can and do know how to fly )
[This message has been edited by malc4d (edited 01 June 2001).]
It can not be that many people. Is that why its being made politicly hard for us FAA holders to convert ?
( no yankbashing please, they can and do know how to fly )
[This message has been edited by malc4d (edited 01 June 2001).]
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Welcome to the world of JAR, buddy.
Before July 1st 1999 it was'nt a problem, but now they just seem to want to make life hard for pilots in general and for converting pilots in particular.
I myself am a brit with FAA CPL/IR and I can stick it where the sun does'nt shine, if I want to live/work in europe.
If you get any wiser on this issue I would be very interested in hearing about it.
Good luck
DT
Before July 1st 1999 it was'nt a problem, but now they just seem to want to make life hard for pilots in general and for converting pilots in particular.
I myself am a brit with FAA CPL/IR and I can stick it where the sun does'nt shine, if I want to live/work in europe.
If you get any wiser on this issue I would be very interested in hearing about it.
Good luck
DT
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Basically the FAA is a far cheaper system, for various reasons.
for the cost of a JAA ATPL Intergrates, you could get a FAA ATP and a heap of hours.
if it was simply a case have a FAA, heres a JAA, everbody would do it, so the JAA simply ban compitition.
Unfair, but also protecting EU interests. I can understand this, but now were locked in with all the JAA S*it with viable competion to make them buck-up their ideas.
for the cost of a JAA ATPL Intergrates, you could get a FAA ATP and a heap of hours.
if it was simply a case have a FAA, heres a JAA, everbody would do it, so the JAA simply ban compitition.
Unfair, but also protecting EU interests. I can understand this, but now were locked in with all the JAA S*it with viable competion to make them buck-up their ideas.
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Yup.Me too. I have an FAA ATP.Nobody can tell me that the US system is not more user friendly than this Euro-crap.Just a whole lot of old fuddy duddies protecting their jobs and justifying their existences.
It has been a complete eye-opener to come back here and just see how backward the whole Euro system is.I really don't understand why "the people" have not done anything about it.
I would challenge anybody from CAA/JAA to go to the States and give me an coherent answer as to why the European system cannot be like the US.
It has been a complete eye-opener to come back here and just see how backward the whole Euro system is.I really don't understand why "the people" have not done anything about it.
I would challenge anybody from CAA/JAA to go to the States and give me an coherent answer as to why the European system cannot be like the US.
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I started my course in 1997 and just missed the cutoff date. I wouldent mind converting if there was a sensable conversion course. after all l can f*****G fly !!!
Also they wouldnt dare go to the states to see a system that realy works well and without a whole lotta fuss.
It seems that we europeans with out 40000 - 60000 doller cpls i/r or atpl arnt wanted in the usa either (not good enough for work permits?) The schools take our money here in europe, or there and then just dump us.
All l get told is "marry an american for the greencard". (New wannabees beware of spending so much money for a faa cpl)
And now the jaa want me to do 50 more hours (another 8000 pds)to get the jaa i/r why???
Also they wouldnt dare go to the states to see a system that realy works well and without a whole lotta fuss.
It seems that we europeans with out 40000 - 60000 doller cpls i/r or atpl arnt wanted in the usa either (not good enough for work permits?) The schools take our money here in europe, or there and then just dump us.
All l get told is "marry an american for the greencard". (New wannabees beware of spending so much money for a faa cpl)
And now the jaa want me to do 50 more hours (another 8000 pds)to get the jaa i/r why???
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Any aviataion training system acts as a filter to remove the less able candidate. The RAF filter in the selection process and then at every stage of training, after all they are using tax payers money.
In the US filtering occurs at the commuter level, pilots reaching the airlines have considerable numbers of hours. You will not get into a US airline with 200 hours.
In Europe the training system is designed to produce a 200 hour pilot who can go into the right hand seat of an airliner. The filter is therefore more academic and based upon a more comprehensive examination system. We do not have many commuter airlines to act as a training ground.
There is no deliberate attempt to keep non-Europeans out of the system. A European committee consisting of predominently airline pilots has laid down a set of minima in JAR-FCL, any country is free to join and contribute to the system. The FAA do not consider the JAA groundschool requirements to be necessary, their system is designed for a different purpose. If you meet the JAA requirements you get a JAA licence, if you have a foreign ATPL with 3000 hours you can convert easily.
Of course there are many pilots who want a licence for nothing, I doubt that many passengers would share their viewpoint. If you think £50,000 is expensive to gain a professional qualification, try becoming a dentist.
In the US filtering occurs at the commuter level, pilots reaching the airlines have considerable numbers of hours. You will not get into a US airline with 200 hours.
In Europe the training system is designed to produce a 200 hour pilot who can go into the right hand seat of an airliner. The filter is therefore more academic and based upon a more comprehensive examination system. We do not have many commuter airlines to act as a training ground.
There is no deliberate attempt to keep non-Europeans out of the system. A European committee consisting of predominently airline pilots has laid down a set of minima in JAR-FCL, any country is free to join and contribute to the system. The FAA do not consider the JAA groundschool requirements to be necessary, their system is designed for a different purpose. If you meet the JAA requirements you get a JAA licence, if you have a foreign ATPL with 3000 hours you can convert easily.
Of course there are many pilots who want a licence for nothing, I doubt that many passengers would share their viewpoint. If you think £50,000 is expensive to gain a professional qualification, try becoming a dentist.
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unfortuantly your faa licenSe is far superoir to the jaa license and the jaa no this! they feel threatened that a faa pilot may be able to fly in europe along side crappy jaa gear/flaps operators. the faa licenSe trains you to be rel pilot where the jaa all you get is a crappy license and no job after given 150000 eu dollars to scholls like horizon. the jar fcl are only bothered about EU dollars. once you get a faa license there is no going bak, because the jaa feel cheated they have not got your eu dollars and they try to make you climb every barrier possible. understande! everyone nos this to be the case but dont want to believe it. forget the eu and stay in the USA. believe me you are far better of. i have never looked back and now i am succesful ATP pilot flying turboprops. i no many fat and ugly women who want britisch passport.
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Good Discussion and some good points.
Like a lot of you, I am a European flying in the USA and would love the opportunity to come home and fly.
Noggin: You made some good points. The CAA used to have a waiver for pilots with 3000 hour heavy flying time. Does that still exist with the JAA? I heard of some sort of waiver for pilots with 4000 hours. Still trying to find out if there's any merit to it.
For someone that's flown with pilots on both sides of the pond my opinion is that one side doesn't produce a better final product than the other. But one thing for sure is there's a lot more BS and ego stroking involved in the Euro side. I suppose they need to do that in order to keep the supply of money coming in and keep themselves in a job.
It's going to be a lot of money, hard work, determination and a lot of jumping through hoops to get the JAA licence and then more work to get a job there. Sometimes it hard to justify if all the effort will be worth it. For some of us it may not be. It all comes down to how much are you willing to sacrafice in order to get it.
Like a lot of you, I am a European flying in the USA and would love the opportunity to come home and fly.
Noggin: You made some good points. The CAA used to have a waiver for pilots with 3000 hour heavy flying time. Does that still exist with the JAA? I heard of some sort of waiver for pilots with 4000 hours. Still trying to find out if there's any merit to it.
For someone that's flown with pilots on both sides of the pond my opinion is that one side doesn't produce a better final product than the other. But one thing for sure is there's a lot more BS and ego stroking involved in the Euro side. I suppose they need to do that in order to keep the supply of money coming in and keep themselves in a job.
It's going to be a lot of money, hard work, determination and a lot of jumping through hoops to get the JAA licence and then more work to get a job there. Sometimes it hard to justify if all the effort will be worth it. For some of us it may not be. It all comes down to how much are you willing to sacrafice in order to get it.
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People are arguing from the wrong (yet correct) standpoint. The questioning of FAA/JAA pilots abilities really isn't the deciding issue with the conversion system.. Politics has firmly crept its way into the JAA; most policies have far more to do with protecting the EU than anything else. If the FAA was simply accepted at face value, the EU JAA system would stop immediately, all pilots would be trained in the US or elsewhere, simply from the economic aspect. "Who flies best" is a futile and never ending slagging match, both systems produce adequate pilots for the job requirements, however, thought vastly different methods.
They conversion system is in place to protect EU interests, not primarily for flight safety reasons.
Please direct all comments to Renaudierre
/arund/ronchonner to the gestbook at http://www.flashheaven.co.uk/ronchonner/ save these pages for intelegent conversation.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 02 June 2001).]
They conversion system is in place to protect EU interests, not primarily for flight safety reasons.
Please direct all comments to Renaudierre
/arund/ronchonner to the gestbook at http://www.flashheaven.co.uk/ronchonner/ save these pages for intelegent conversation.
[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 02 June 2001).]
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As a Brit also working as a pilot in the US I can say as others have mentioned that there are both good and bad with both Euro and US systems. The Euro system has a very comprehensive ground/theoritical base (dificult and inconvenient as it may be), there is no denying that it produces a theoritically knowledgeable person. However by the time a US trained FO gets to fly a Jet he has (usually) accumulated some solid flying experience eg single pilot IFR, he has been a Captain and made wx decisions and is therefore more useful to the Captain, I think than a 400 hr FO. Having said that I am not taking anything away from European trained FO's they have to pay their dues too albeit in a different way. As a Business Jet Captain flying in the U.S. I have flown with both types and cannot say I have had any worse experience with one type over the other. The systems are diferent and I think they will remain so for the foreseeable future.
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Yes you are right Flare_you_fool. Such airlines as Delta require four year degrees. May I ask why 4 years as oppose to only 3 years, what is the difference, a degree is still a degree, or is it the norm in America that most degrees are 4 years?
Why is it that some airlines in America need qualified pilots to have degrees anyway. Won't 10,000 hours do all on heavy jets, its not as if these pilots are on going for CEP schemes where huge amounts of money are going to be spent on their training.
Why is it that some airlines in America need qualified pilots to have degrees anyway. Won't 10,000 hours do all on heavy jets, its not as if these pilots are on going for CEP schemes where huge amounts of money are going to be spent on their training.
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Tarmach,
There is typically a 2 year degree called associate level and then the 4 year degree which is a bachelor degree. The airlines don't want the 2 year degree so they say a 4 year degree is required. The education structure is a little different over in the States and there really is no equivalent to a 3year degree similar to the UK.
The requirement is just another way to be selective, several airlines have already dropped the hard requirement but say it is desirable. I believe around 90%+ of applicants hired by the Majors in the states do have a 4 year degree.
Regards
FYF
There is typically a 2 year degree called associate level and then the 4 year degree which is a bachelor degree. The airlines don't want the 2 year degree so they say a 4 year degree is required. The education structure is a little different over in the States and there really is no equivalent to a 3year degree similar to the UK.
The requirement is just another way to be selective, several airlines have already dropped the hard requirement but say it is desirable. I believe around 90%+ of applicants hired by the Majors in the states do have a 4 year degree.
Regards
FYF
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I have just completed a 300nm+ solo cross country from San Francisco to Las Vegas in a Duchess. I also stopped at another airfield on the way back which is the UK requirement for the commercial x/c. I believe the FAA require 250nm. It was signed off by my CFII.
I am starting OATS in August, followed by the 50 odd hours of flying prior to the practical test.
Will I have to demonstrate this again in the UK, or as it is logged and signed off will this be appropriate?
Would appreciate your comments and thoughts.
The reason I did it was because the Duchess had just had its engines replaced and the flight school was looking for someone to break them in, so they only charged $120/hr total.
I am starting OATS in August, followed by the 50 odd hours of flying prior to the practical test.
Will I have to demonstrate this again in the UK, or as it is logged and signed off will this be appropriate?
Would appreciate your comments and thoughts.
The reason I did it was because the Duchess had just had its engines replaced and the flight school was looking for someone to break them in, so they only charged $120/hr total.