Oxford B. S.
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Oxford B. S.
Has anyone checked this stuff Oxford Air Training School trots out about something like 2/3 of graduates getting jet jobs in a year, or indeed any job? I'm pretty sure Oxford haven't; they rarely speak to ex cadets unless they happen to phone up. And that advert professing to guarantee a BA interview given good performance is verging on fraudulent. I was a 509 student there a couple of years ago, and they dangled that carrot at me, getting me all excited when they said they had put me on a list of ten names for interview. Did it come to anything; did it b*****ks; It was a year after graduation before I had my first interview, and after 14 months my second interview got me a job - this is a cadet who came close to the top for the year, and was considered of high captaincy potential by his instructors. Admittedly last Spring wasn't as good as it is now is for jobs, or as it will be, but I am continually hearing of or meeting ex Oxford people who either cant find jobs or are still **** kicking.
I now work for a very competent and friendly air taxi company, and am continually impressed by ex instructors (who have moved across to the air taxi side). Their work load capacity in the very demanding piston twin IFR environment puts 200h 509ers to shame, and arguably many airline flyers, (although I dont know about that). If the instructor/ hour build route is still available, I would definately recommend it above the 509 route, even if you have £50000 burning a hole in your pocket.
I now work for a very competent and friendly air taxi company, and am continually impressed by ex instructors (who have moved across to the air taxi side). Their work load capacity in the very demanding piston twin IFR environment puts 200h 509ers to shame, and arguably many airline flyers, (although I dont know about that). If the instructor/ hour build route is still available, I would definately recommend it above the 509 route, even if you have £50000 burning a hole in your pocket.
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What a breath of fresh air on the Wannabees forum - well said honeymonster ('bout time we had some controversy)
Interesting to read that ex-instructors seem to handle things better than ex-509'rs in your operation. I am starting to hear more and more of this. BA Captains who fear that should they have a heart attack their F/O is incapable of landing the A/c. I think that possibly the shine is starting to come of the whole 509 thing. In past recessionary years there were fewer cadetships around and they were barely advertised. The upshot was some top notch applicants and very few dreamers. When they finished their courses they entered airline Ops in smaller numbers than at present and the airlines were less busy and thus had more time to nurse them. Course fail rates are going up, Airlines are frantically busy and one or two Captains are starting to grumble quite loudly about their workload when flying with ex-Cadets. The upshot, in my humble opinion, is that the record number of 509 graduates now being produced will really struggle to get the jobs they aspire to.
I just have difficulty feeling comfortable with a 737 being flown by someone with 250hrs TT and acne! I suspect many Captains in the industry will not tolerate many more Cadets either. Still - wish I had 50,000 though rather than my current 1,265 pounds 72 pence and a cheeky grin! WWW
Interesting to read that ex-instructors seem to handle things better than ex-509'rs in your operation. I am starting to hear more and more of this. BA Captains who fear that should they have a heart attack their F/O is incapable of landing the A/c. I think that possibly the shine is starting to come of the whole 509 thing. In past recessionary years there were fewer cadetships around and they were barely advertised. The upshot was some top notch applicants and very few dreamers. When they finished their courses they entered airline Ops in smaller numbers than at present and the airlines were less busy and thus had more time to nurse them. Course fail rates are going up, Airlines are frantically busy and one or two Captains are starting to grumble quite loudly about their workload when flying with ex-Cadets. The upshot, in my humble opinion, is that the record number of 509 graduates now being produced will really struggle to get the jobs they aspire to.
I just have difficulty feeling comfortable with a 737 being flown by someone with 250hrs TT and acne! I suspect many Captains in the industry will not tolerate many more Cadets either. Still - wish I had 50,000 though rather than my current 1,265 pounds 72 pence and a cheeky grin! WWW
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I don't know if what Honeymonster says is true or not but WWW would you feel more comfortable if YOU were the 250hr F/O in the 737 ? I think you probably would.BTW how is the acne ?
Secondly,are you trying to tell me that BA are allowing OATS to put a full page spread in PILOT and FLYER for a laugh ?
No,I don't work at OATS but I will be there for 13 months from August.I just want to get a licence as quickly as possible and take my chances with everybody else and whichever way you get it that's what it's all about surely.
Secondly,are you trying to tell me that BA are allowing OATS to put a full page spread in PILOT and FLYER for a laugh ?
No,I don't work at OATS but I will be there for 13 months from August.I just want to get a licence as quickly as possible and take my chances with everybody else and whichever way you get it that's what it's all about surely.
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Having a friend who is a 250 hr BA Cadet Pilot and just about to start his Sim training I can tell you that it is not just the cadets who are worried about their abilities! There seems to be some asssumption on the part of some of the Training Captains that they can all fly perfectly. Truth is some of them have had up to a 3 month gap between when they last flew and starting Fixed Base Training and have difficulty remembering their scan patterns.
But having said all that I am quite sure that they will all be competent by the time they have finished and BA do make them do lots of line training sectors......
But having said all that I am quite sure that they will all be competent by the time they have finished and BA do make them do lots of line training sectors......
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No I wouldn't feel overly comfortable if it was me with the 250hrs and 737 strapped to my backside actually. On my second Revenue Earning Flight we're in the stack above the busiest airport in the world in a steam driven 737. The wind is gusting 40 knots across the runway, the a/c is fully loaded and we haven't exactly got tonnes of fuel to spare. Suddenly the old guy next to me clutches his chest, turns purple and slumps in his seat. Go.
Could I handle that with 250 hrs ? My first EVER real airborne emergency. No instructor available, everything happening quickly and the adrenalin pumping... No I don't think I could handle it well enough to leave safe margins for the 100 odd poor souls strapped in with me. You have to visualise (as with all aviaition safety matters) the worst scenario and plan for that. The weakest Cadet from the course with the least experience suffering the most serious of incidents at the worst time. It'll probably never happen but all aviation accidents probably wouldn't happen but they still do and are still planned for in SOP's and aircraft/engine design.
But this was not my original intended point. There are plenty of very hot ex 509 Cadets who make superb pilots from the start. The biggest issue is actually the extra workload that flying with a Cadet generates for the Captains. They just don't like it too much and who can blame them? Also what will happen in a few years time if the airlines take too many Cadets - you'll have a 1,501hr Captain and a 250hr Cadet flying out of major hubs in hefty metal like a 757! Just doesn't look quite right to me - wonder what Joe public will think as he sniffs a faint whiff of acne cream and sees both his pilots walking up the aisle neither of whom are over 29... Will he feel reassured and glad he chose this airline rather than the last one he flew with which had two firm jawed, grey haired veterans at the controls who were much closer to his age and background.
As with all things, balance and diversity is the key. BTW, grey hair is more of a problem for me than acne ever was! WWW
Could I handle that with 250 hrs ? My first EVER real airborne emergency. No instructor available, everything happening quickly and the adrenalin pumping... No I don't think I could handle it well enough to leave safe margins for the 100 odd poor souls strapped in with me. You have to visualise (as with all aviaition safety matters) the worst scenario and plan for that. The weakest Cadet from the course with the least experience suffering the most serious of incidents at the worst time. It'll probably never happen but all aviation accidents probably wouldn't happen but they still do and are still planned for in SOP's and aircraft/engine design.
But this was not my original intended point. There are plenty of very hot ex 509 Cadets who make superb pilots from the start. The biggest issue is actually the extra workload that flying with a Cadet generates for the Captains. They just don't like it too much and who can blame them? Also what will happen in a few years time if the airlines take too many Cadets - you'll have a 1,501hr Captain and a 250hr Cadet flying out of major hubs in hefty metal like a 757! Just doesn't look quite right to me - wonder what Joe public will think as he sniffs a faint whiff of acne cream and sees both his pilots walking up the aisle neither of whom are over 29... Will he feel reassured and glad he chose this airline rather than the last one he flew with which had two firm jawed, grey haired veterans at the controls who were much closer to his age and background.
As with all things, balance and diversity is the key. BTW, grey hair is more of a problem for me than acne ever was! WWW
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WWW
true enough, but surely those two grey haired gents are statistically more likely to pop their clogs than a very fit 29 year old (admittedly only with 300 hours from a CAP 509 course who paid with mostly legally earned money)?! Thats the basis I am working on, and I'm going to do my best to convince potential employers (who may be the very same grey haired gents) that this is the case!! I'll let you know how it goes (from my position as chief Burger fryer at a well known high street chain with very nice polyester uniforms) in two years time!
true enough, but surely those two grey haired gents are statistically more likely to pop their clogs than a very fit 29 year old (admittedly only with 300 hours from a CAP 509 course who paid with mostly legally earned money)?! Thats the basis I am working on, and I'm going to do my best to convince potential employers (who may be the very same grey haired gents) that this is the case!! I'll let you know how it goes (from my position as chief Burger fryer at a well known high street chain with very nice polyester uniforms) in two years time!
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WWW,I accept if not necessarily agree with what you have said but what is the answer ?
Should all F/O's have a minimum of 700hrs ?
and if so on what type of aircraft ? Would that mean that they could deal with the emergency you outlined.Somebody with 250hrs may or may not be able to cope with the situation but the same could be said of somebody with 2,000 hours.It's the reaction of the person on a particular day.
Should all F/O's have a minimum of 700hrs ?
and if so on what type of aircraft ? Would that mean that they could deal with the emergency you outlined.Somebody with 250hrs may or may not be able to cope with the situation but the same could be said of somebody with 2,000 hours.It's the reaction of the person on a particular day.
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Surely the selection procedures of airlines have progressed enough over the past few decades to eliminate incompetent pilots, acne clad or not. If a pilot is not up to taking over in an emergency situation he or she shouldn't be there irrespective of whether the pilot as 200 or 700 hrs.
The public perception of what a pilot should look like or how old a pilot should be is based on stereotype and not exclusive to our industry alone (doctors, managers, etc).
The public perception of what a pilot should look like or how old a pilot should be is based on stereotype and not exclusive to our industry alone (doctors, managers, etc).
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True, true. I can't heartily disagree with any of you. I absolutley do not want to give the impression I have some chip on my shoulder about 509 students. I have some very good friends on Cadetship courses who were really hot pilots when I flew with them and I wish all of you the best of luck.
I think my real intent was to relay many of the comments I here from airline/commercial pilots that I hang around with. Many Wannabees on this forum have no real contact (other than PPRuNe) with the wider world of aviation. They have read all the brochures, heard all the bull**** and get totally focused on flying a Boeing this time next year. I think it only fair to give light to the strong and building undercurrent of discontent at the whole 509 situation amongst wide sections of the commercial pilots pool.
Lets face it chaps, anyone who has spent a couple of years and 2000 hours flying around in turboprops has dealt with dangerous weather, engine/system malfunctions, press-on pressures, dodgy passengers etc. etc. They think of someone applying for the job they want with only 250 hrs with a great deal of 'healthy scepticism'. Who could blame them? The situation then becomes one of nasty little stories being circulated about 509'ers who don't know this, can't do that and so on. The situation is not a crisis or anything but I do sense the anti-509 sentiment is building. That said, with the current market, I'd do an approved upgrade tomorrow if I could afford it (which I can't). Chin up chaps - WWW!
I think my real intent was to relay many of the comments I here from airline/commercial pilots that I hang around with. Many Wannabees on this forum have no real contact (other than PPRuNe) with the wider world of aviation. They have read all the brochures, heard all the bull**** and get totally focused on flying a Boeing this time next year. I think it only fair to give light to the strong and building undercurrent of discontent at the whole 509 situation amongst wide sections of the commercial pilots pool.
Lets face it chaps, anyone who has spent a couple of years and 2000 hours flying around in turboprops has dealt with dangerous weather, engine/system malfunctions, press-on pressures, dodgy passengers etc. etc. They think of someone applying for the job they want with only 250 hrs with a great deal of 'healthy scepticism'. Who could blame them? The situation then becomes one of nasty little stories being circulated about 509'ers who don't know this, can't do that and so on. The situation is not a crisis or anything but I do sense the anti-509 sentiment is building. That said, with the current market, I'd do an approved upgrade tomorrow if I could afford it (which I can't). Chin up chaps - WWW!
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OK, fair enough, the guy who has 2000hrs on T-props is probably likely to do better in an emergency than the 250hr Cadet, but that 2000hr guys experience probably comes from BEING a 250hr pilot in bad Wx etc. Even the hottest training Capt once had only 250hrs.
I don't think anyone would doubt the ability of the RAF pilots who start solo Fast Jet flying with not a great deal more than 250hrs - its not the NUMBER of hours that is important, its the quality of training that those hours represent.
Everyone who flies a 737 or what-have-you has once sat in the RHS with NO previous flying time on that aircraft. Besides, the CEP schemes and 509 courses have been running and churning out 'low-hour' pilots onto the line for quite while now - if the airlines didn't act appropriately in supervising these guys (& gals) then surely the Sussex countryside would be littered with crashed 737s?
At the end of the day, no airline is going to give a job to someone who is not capable of handling the aeroplane (that'll probably set some people off!). If that means making sure that someone who gets a Cadetship is a more 'capable' person (subjective opinion) than the 1000hr self-improver, so be it. Live and let live guys, we're on the same team.
I don't think anyone would doubt the ability of the RAF pilots who start solo Fast Jet flying with not a great deal more than 250hrs - its not the NUMBER of hours that is important, its the quality of training that those hours represent.
Everyone who flies a 737 or what-have-you has once sat in the RHS with NO previous flying time on that aircraft. Besides, the CEP schemes and 509 courses have been running and churning out 'low-hour' pilots onto the line for quite while now - if the airlines didn't act appropriately in supervising these guys (& gals) then surely the Sussex countryside would be littered with crashed 737s?
At the end of the day, no airline is going to give a job to someone who is not capable of handling the aeroplane (that'll probably set some people off!). If that means making sure that someone who gets a Cadetship is a more 'capable' person (subjective opinion) than the 1000hr self-improver, so be it. Live and let live guys, we're on the same team.
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So, honeymonster, you would rather that an 200 hour self-taught pilot handle a difficult situation than a 200 hour professionally-trained '509 pilot? You're bloody nuts. You say you came 'close to the top of the class and had captaincy potential' - I would hope EVERY flight student has captaincy potential, otherwise he shouldn't be airborne. As for the 'top of the class' Top-gun bulls**t - why should that mean that you are more employable than the next bloke? For all I know, you could be a good pilot but a right w**ker to work with; judging by the size of that chip on your shoulder I wouldn't be surprised...
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You're missing the point chaps. Yes everybody has been a 250 hr pilot at some point but the self improver at that point would have been in a 172 or some such operating out of Much Marcle *NOT* in a ruddy great big Boeing operating out of Gatwick! That's a hell of a difference to make up with "top training" and lets face it the aptitude tests are not exactly screening for Chuck Yeagar standard are they now?
But lets take some of the heat out of this shall we guys? Nobody hates anybody on the Wannabee forum - shall we make that a rule? Go on, it would make half the established Pilots over on Rumours look a bit silly, let's show them we're ALL worthy of their jobs! - Safe Flying. WWW.
But lets take some of the heat out of this shall we guys? Nobody hates anybody on the Wannabee forum - shall we make that a rule? Go on, it would make half the established Pilots over on Rumours look a bit silly, let's show them we're ALL worthy of their jobs! - Safe Flying. WWW.
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WWW, it seems to me you've got a big chip on your shoulder about 509'ers!!
509'ers are just as good as your 700hr route pilots just as 700hr self improver pilot's are as good as 509'ers......
Now it's upgraders we want to pick on ;-)
BTW I wasn't a 509er!
509'ers are just as good as your 700hr route pilots just as 700hr self improver pilot's are as good as 509'ers......
Now it's upgraders we want to pick on ;-)
BTW I wasn't a 509er!
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Well done WWW. At last someone has used the magic word - aptitude. Your BA CEP 509er at OATS will have taken some pretty stiff aptitude tests and will have been selected on his/her results. A self financing 509er is largely selected on the ability to pay. That says loads to me. This is of course true to some extent of the self improver. Passing the GFTs is of course a hurdle, but my understanding of the required standard means it is not a very big hurdle.
The difference of course is that the self improver will have more hours, and this seems to be what employers look for. It may be that 500 of the 700 hours is tugging gliders at Much Markle, but experience is king.
Last Novembers Professional Pilots seminar at Heathrow saw several low end employers state that whereas they were looking for 509ers in previous years, now they would rather employ self improvers, particularly ex flying instructors as they proved easier to train.
BA have let OATS use them as the carrot in the referred to advert, but they can afford to and have to be be choosy. I suspect that they will take the self improver 509ers if they like what they see in the OATS training reports.
The difference of course is that the self improver will have more hours, and this seems to be what employers look for. It may be that 500 of the 700 hours is tugging gliders at Much Markle, but experience is king.
Last Novembers Professional Pilots seminar at Heathrow saw several low end employers state that whereas they were looking for 509ers in previous years, now they would rather employ self improvers, particularly ex flying instructors as they proved easier to train.
BA have let OATS use them as the carrot in the referred to advert, but they can afford to and have to be be choosy. I suspect that they will take the self improver 509ers if they like what they see in the OATS training reports.
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Airline Cadets have started off on B737's in our neck of the woods for many years now.It does'nt mean a 250hr cadet can't hack it on a B737.Just takes a while longer.It is then up to the Airline in question to develop a comprehensive training scheme where the cadet is trained first in the simulator plus observation flights on the real thing.Not to forget the cadets get a training detail on an empty B737 with numerous touch and go's for purpose of licence endorsement.After which he/she will go through an extensive period of line training with Instructors backed up by an experienced safety co-pilot in the jumpseat.Some airlines specify a minimum of 100 sectors before one is cleared on line.
The issue of the captain dropping dead is almost the same as a 30hour PPL/8hour just soloed student having his instructor go belly up on him.Only difference is on a B737 commercial flight there'd be about 146 paying pax. However they are not cheated/safety is never really compromised as Good Airlines incorporate simulated`Pilot Incapacitation' into their Line training programmes.
Most Regulatory authorities never specify any period of `on the job' experience to enable you to fly a B737...as long as you have the type rating..you can fly. It's up to the Airlines/operators.
I personally have been down that road before. Many survive the rigorous training, some don't.The thing that will hit you is the speed at which things go. This can be remedied. For example..some of our richer neighbours put their cadets on a Learjet first then onto bigger planes.
So to all the 250hr cadets aspiring to fly in the airlines, don't be discouraged by some of the negative remarks here. A journey of a thousand hours begins with a single minute.
The issue of the captain dropping dead is almost the same as a 30hour PPL/8hour just soloed student having his instructor go belly up on him.Only difference is on a B737 commercial flight there'd be about 146 paying pax. However they are not cheated/safety is never really compromised as Good Airlines incorporate simulated`Pilot Incapacitation' into their Line training programmes.
Most Regulatory authorities never specify any period of `on the job' experience to enable you to fly a B737...as long as you have the type rating..you can fly. It's up to the Airlines/operators.
I personally have been down that road before. Many survive the rigorous training, some don't.The thing that will hit you is the speed at which things go. This can be remedied. For example..some of our richer neighbours put their cadets on a Learjet first then onto bigger planes.
So to all the 250hr cadets aspiring to fly in the airlines, don't be discouraged by some of the negative remarks here. A journey of a thousand hours begins with a single minute.
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Very refreshing to read this reply. I was beginning to think that this would turn into a witch-hunt of 509ers.
I was going to mention the same examples - i.e. things going t1ts-up as a PPL student. But go further - what about straying into IMC with a PPL, or an EFATO in a single? I'm willing to bet that they aint any easier or nicer than having the man in the left seat of a 737 go green, when you've only got 250 hours. You have to learn the drill and get on with it, whoever you are. I can tell you from experience that survival is a powerful instinct in such circumstances....
And, as the man says, there's quite a large effort made in the line training with training crew on board.
I was going to mention the same examples - i.e. things going t1ts-up as a PPL student. But go further - what about straying into IMC with a PPL, or an EFATO in a single? I'm willing to bet that they aint any easier or nicer than having the man in the left seat of a 737 go green, when you've only got 250 hours. You have to learn the drill and get on with it, whoever you are. I can tell you from experience that survival is a powerful instinct in such circumstances....
And, as the man says, there's quite a large effort made in the line training with training crew on board.
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What a load of crap if filling these pages- I'll tell you why self improvers are not getting jobs- because it sounds like you all a bunch of old women gossiping about nothing. Let's clear a few things up. I am not a employee of OATS- But I am a student there- yes on a 509 course.
So Does that make me a Brat- which is what some of you are saying? Or just some one fairly young with a heap of money and a person who could not drive a tram down a Roman road without hitting a tree.
Let's talk about the self improver- Generally a highly motivated person who I take my hat to for all their hard work and effort they put into flying- there is indeed some talent out there. But there are those who let the side down- in simply terms CRM desperate- I have seen a few examples my self.
The market in the UK in the very Short term is looking good for them, experience is needed to fill right hand seats- to be put in to the left one fairly fast- ie channel express and Brymon (who look at the 'older person' in the hope that they won't desert them in 5 years.
For the 509'er the market is too good to be true. I had a mate who left a flying school doing a 509 course a few weeks ago- all got jobs now except one. (jet too). IT operators are filling seats with experienced guy's and galls from people like Brymon. But they are taking one new cadets after they leave schools like this- CRM orientated- Professional teaching- not novice teach novice ie some cases of the self improver.
The lack of aptitude question is a load of crap. Most people go solo here around the 10 hour mark or faster, some slower.
But the modern airline Pilot is not a jet jockey- you say you would not be happy with a 509'er flying the a/c. After multi engine flying here- and the B737 sim- and base training with an airline- you still would not be happy- plus let's face when you start flying you are going to put auto pilot around 1,000 feet and monitor systems and leave the ap in to the ILS- you can only start hand flying until you get a head of the a/c with the a/p in. Are you telling me that some one with 1500 hours on a C-152 going up and down the local rail way line for a hour a day can do a better job? No is the answer.
Finally I have wanted to be a Airline Pilot since I was about three months old- over 20 years ago- so don't think the people here are a spare of the moment idea career change. Were all dedicated and scraped and saved to do it. When we could have nipped down the local local aerodrome and fitted a hour in.
Finally BA cadets- If BA want 80 pilots the can write thee lines 2mm tall in the back of SUN and they will get 30,000 applicants who are more than capable of flying a aeroplane- they look for managers- people who have other back grounds and don't drone on about flying all the time- so one day they can move to a desk job with the experience of a Pilot.
Finally! If I think you are a tad jealous of us- and I don't blame you- I would be too if I was in you shoes and I have been make no mistake- my break will be near and with the industry looking so good- I think I will get a job in about 2 months of leaving- I hope!
Good Luck- I wish all success as I know it's a hard goal to get what ever way- sorry about spelling, grammer, syntax and other mistakes I have made- not long had the PC. If I can help e-mail me-
So Does that make me a Brat- which is what some of you are saying? Or just some one fairly young with a heap of money and a person who could not drive a tram down a Roman road without hitting a tree.
Let's talk about the self improver- Generally a highly motivated person who I take my hat to for all their hard work and effort they put into flying- there is indeed some talent out there. But there are those who let the side down- in simply terms CRM desperate- I have seen a few examples my self.
The market in the UK in the very Short term is looking good for them, experience is needed to fill right hand seats- to be put in to the left one fairly fast- ie channel express and Brymon (who look at the 'older person' in the hope that they won't desert them in 5 years.
For the 509'er the market is too good to be true. I had a mate who left a flying school doing a 509 course a few weeks ago- all got jobs now except one. (jet too). IT operators are filling seats with experienced guy's and galls from people like Brymon. But they are taking one new cadets after they leave schools like this- CRM orientated- Professional teaching- not novice teach novice ie some cases of the self improver.
The lack of aptitude question is a load of crap. Most people go solo here around the 10 hour mark or faster, some slower.
But the modern airline Pilot is not a jet jockey- you say you would not be happy with a 509'er flying the a/c. After multi engine flying here- and the B737 sim- and base training with an airline- you still would not be happy- plus let's face when you start flying you are going to put auto pilot around 1,000 feet and monitor systems and leave the ap in to the ILS- you can only start hand flying until you get a head of the a/c with the a/p in. Are you telling me that some one with 1500 hours on a C-152 going up and down the local rail way line for a hour a day can do a better job? No is the answer.
Finally I have wanted to be a Airline Pilot since I was about three months old- over 20 years ago- so don't think the people here are a spare of the moment idea career change. Were all dedicated and scraped and saved to do it. When we could have nipped down the local local aerodrome and fitted a hour in.
Finally BA cadets- If BA want 80 pilots the can write thee lines 2mm tall in the back of SUN and they will get 30,000 applicants who are more than capable of flying a aeroplane- they look for managers- people who have other back grounds and don't drone on about flying all the time- so one day they can move to a desk job with the experience of a Pilot.
Finally! If I think you are a tad jealous of us- and I don't blame you- I would be too if I was in you shoes and I have been make no mistake- my break will be near and with the industry looking so good- I think I will get a job in about 2 months of leaving- I hope!
Good Luck- I wish all success as I know it's a hard goal to get what ever way- sorry about spelling, grammer, syntax and other mistakes I have made- not long had the PC. If I can help e-mail me-
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Congratulations Mr Idea on being the first person to mention CRM. Under JAR-OPS 1 Subpart N, CRM will be an assessable item during recurrent training.
There are too many people who only judge a pilot by his ability to land in a 40kt crosswind. There are many more skills involved, including CRM and management ability. You either have these skills or you don't, irrespective of whether you are a self improver or a 509er.
I have flown with, and trained hundreds of self improvers, 509ers and ex military pilots, and hold them all in equal esteem. At the end of the day, you will NOT be cleared in the RHS without a safety pilot until we know that you can manage the aircraft, crew AND a 40kt crosswind. I don't want our tailplanes littering the countyside, even if you wouldn't now know which airline it is.
I wish you ALL a successful and stimulating career whatever your background.
There are too many people who only judge a pilot by his ability to land in a 40kt crosswind. There are many more skills involved, including CRM and management ability. You either have these skills or you don't, irrespective of whether you are a self improver or a 509er.
I have flown with, and trained hundreds of self improvers, 509ers and ex military pilots, and hold them all in equal esteem. At the end of the day, you will NOT be cleared in the RHS without a safety pilot until we know that you can manage the aircraft, crew AND a 40kt crosswind. I don't want our tailplanes littering the countyside, even if you wouldn't now know which airline it is.
I wish you ALL a successful and stimulating career whatever your background.
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Chaps,
I can only speak as one who has flown next to both self-improvers and 509ers in the past, on the line, in pretty big jets. I'm now flying for a BIG British bunch in pretty big jets and will be sitting next to those same people again fairly soon.
In my experience, once you're in the company all bets are off. The thread of why companies hire each has been discussed in the past. Once you're in and have done the training, base check, line training and line check you are ready to operate. It doesn't matter what your previous background - that goes too for the rotary fraternity. If WWW's skipper drops dead then by the time he's alone with him he will be able to handle the situation - or he'd still have a trainer and safety pilot. All this talk of who is better is null and void on the line. I've flown with experienced ex-military pilots, self-improvers, 509ers, the lot (I think). I've never had to take control from any. All have listened to comments I might have and all have offered back things I didn't know or other ways of doing things. The main thing is that if ALL crews stick to their company SOPs they will build on a good, standardised means of operating. This will have been approved by the CAA and designed by those who do have the experience. There is always room for initiative but a company expects SOPs rather than who has flown low level tactical missions, bashed the glider tug circuit or done an approved course.
As for who prefers what - I would suggest personality, interview technique, presentation and the like will land you a job. Remember that the licence requirement is a tick in the box. You've either got it or you ain't - it doesn't matter how you got it!
See what honets nest that stirs up !!
Cheerio.
(PS: Not self-improver or 509er)
I can only speak as one who has flown next to both self-improvers and 509ers in the past, on the line, in pretty big jets. I'm now flying for a BIG British bunch in pretty big jets and will be sitting next to those same people again fairly soon.
In my experience, once you're in the company all bets are off. The thread of why companies hire each has been discussed in the past. Once you're in and have done the training, base check, line training and line check you are ready to operate. It doesn't matter what your previous background - that goes too for the rotary fraternity. If WWW's skipper drops dead then by the time he's alone with him he will be able to handle the situation - or he'd still have a trainer and safety pilot. All this talk of who is better is null and void on the line. I've flown with experienced ex-military pilots, self-improvers, 509ers, the lot (I think). I've never had to take control from any. All have listened to comments I might have and all have offered back things I didn't know or other ways of doing things. The main thing is that if ALL crews stick to their company SOPs they will build on a good, standardised means of operating. This will have been approved by the CAA and designed by those who do have the experience. There is always room for initiative but a company expects SOPs rather than who has flown low level tactical missions, bashed the glider tug circuit or done an approved course.
As for who prefers what - I would suggest personality, interview technique, presentation and the like will land you a job. Remember that the licence requirement is a tick in the box. You've either got it or you ain't - it doesn't matter how you got it!
See what honets nest that stirs up !!
Cheerio.
(PS: Not self-improver or 509er)