PPL command from RHS?
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PPL command from RHS?
What are the rules regarding a PPL flying from the right-hand seat. I obviously wouldn't recommend this when flying with a none qualified passenger, but what about when flying with another PPL?
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I wouldn't recommend it if its a PA28 or similar. If you fly in the RHS of these aircraft you are subject to making paralax errors when reading the instruments!
The military command from the RHS in their fireflys. Dont know why!
The military command from the RHS in their fireflys. Dont know why!
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When flying with another pilot, if agreed then you can have the controls and fly the aircraft but you cannot log the time, as you are not P1. With regard to GA, in the RHS, as a pilot, you generally perform the duties of safety pilot, ie, extra pair of eyes, but you are not PIC. 
As for instructors and Crowes comment (instructors fly P1 from the right seat all the time). The main difference between PPL and instructors is that instructors are trained and qualified to fly from the RHS. Minimum qualifications for FI rating: CPL/IR with 200 hrs and 50 hrs in the last month on type. (I believe that is the current requirement, but stand to be corrected).
Instructors may log the hours as P1 but remember that the 'student' has to log the hours as P1 u/t or u/s depending on the type of flight.
Hope that clarifies things a little further for you chaps.
As for instructors and Crowes comment (instructors fly P1 from the right seat all the time). The main difference between PPL and instructors is that instructors are trained and qualified to fly from the RHS. Minimum qualifications for FI rating: CPL/IR with 200 hrs and 50 hrs in the last month on type. (I believe that is the current requirement, but stand to be corrected).
Instructors may log the hours as P1 but remember that the 'student' has to log the hours as P1 u/t or u/s depending on the type of flight.
Hope that clarifies things a little further for you chaps.
You will find yourself quite ill at ease in the RHS for the first 10 - 20hrs. Its quite different. Personally I now find it quite strage to fly from the LHS in light aircraft...
WWW
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The person who gets P1 in his logbook is the a/c commander .
The commander is the person who signs for the a/c and whose name is inserted as commander in the tech log / authorisation sheet.
why as commander flying with another PPL you should wish to sit on the right beats me .
to fly the aircraft whilst the guy in the left seat does something (?) else should be fine .
To have a PPL fly from the right with an unqualified pilot or pax in the left is a scary thought unless an instructor and would make interesting reading for an insurance company after an accident even if the pilot in the right hand seat did an excellent job but still caused some damage ie EFATO forced landing but hit bump in field dinging prop .
Digressing slightly for those of you hours building and sharing flying leg and leg about you are in the right hand seat not in command but had been on the previous leg and you have an engine failure in the cruise .
You would provide all possible assistance to the a/c commander but what if it is obvious that he is making a pigs ear of it ?
If you take control and then cock it up yourself then very interesting questions could come your way from various quarters even from the a/c commander .
just food for thought.
The commander is the person who signs for the a/c and whose name is inserted as commander in the tech log / authorisation sheet.
why as commander flying with another PPL you should wish to sit on the right beats me .
to fly the aircraft whilst the guy in the left seat does something (?) else should be fine .
To have a PPL fly from the right with an unqualified pilot or pax in the left is a scary thought unless an instructor and would make interesting reading for an insurance company after an accident even if the pilot in the right hand seat did an excellent job but still caused some damage ie EFATO forced landing but hit bump in field dinging prop .
Digressing slightly for those of you hours building and sharing flying leg and leg about you are in the right hand seat not in command but had been on the previous leg and you have an engine failure in the cruise .
You would provide all possible assistance to the a/c commander but what if it is obvious that he is making a pigs ear of it ?
If you take control and then cock it up yourself then very interesting questions could come your way from various quarters even from the a/c commander .
just food for thought.
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window-seat asked for the rules regarding a PPL flying from the RHS. There is nothing in UK law that specifically prevents the PIC (P1) from sitting in the RHS. However, if there were an incident and it could be shown, for example, that all controls were not easily accessible from the RHS (e.g. fuel selector in a PA28 as pointed out by SuperTed) then there might be a case for a charge of endangerment under Article 63 of the ANO.
JEFTS fly their Fireflies from the RHS to achieve a comparable control layout to a single seat aeroplane (throttle in the left hand, control column in the right). Incidentally, JEFTS are subject to the ANO just like anyone else and so would not be able to do this were there any legal bar.
socrates is wrong to suggest that PIC cannot be logged from the RHS. If two PPL holders are flying together it is quite in order for them to agree to fly half the trip each and for each to log the half that he flew as PIC.
He is also almost entirely incorrect in his belief as to the current requirements for the FI rating. It is not necessary to hold either a CPL or an IR, nor is it necessary to have flown 50 hours on type in the last month.
Furthermore, there is no longer any such thing such thing as either P1 u/t or P1 u/s. According to AMC-FCL 1.080, flight may be logged as Pilot-in-Command (including PIC, SPIC and PIC(US)), Co-Pilot or Dual.
Apart from that, a pretty accurate post.
JEFTS fly their Fireflies from the RHS to achieve a comparable control layout to a single seat aeroplane (throttle in the left hand, control column in the right). Incidentally, JEFTS are subject to the ANO just like anyone else and so would not be able to do this were there any legal bar.
socrates is wrong to suggest that PIC cannot be logged from the RHS. If two PPL holders are flying together it is quite in order for them to agree to fly half the trip each and for each to log the half that he flew as PIC.
He is also almost entirely incorrect in his belief as to the current requirements for the FI rating. It is not necessary to hold either a CPL or an IR, nor is it necessary to have flown 50 hours on type in the last month.
Furthermore, there is no longer any such thing such thing as either P1 u/t or P1 u/s. According to AMC-FCL 1.080, flight may be logged as Pilot-in-Command (including PIC, SPIC and PIC(US)), Co-Pilot or Dual.
Apart from that, a pretty accurate post.
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Thanks for the replies guys,
I ask the question, because A) there is a very good chance that I may at some stage, share an a/c with another PPL, and B) on one flight where I flew as a RHS passenger in a PA-38, I found (as WWW points out), that the perspective looks very un-familiar!
Any more thoughts?, anyone got any RHS stories?
Just thought!, whats the score with regard to a tandem seat a/c such as a YAK or chipy, and command from the rear?
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: window-seat ]
I ask the question, because A) there is a very good chance that I may at some stage, share an a/c with another PPL, and B) on one flight where I flew as a RHS passenger in a PA-38, I found (as WWW points out), that the perspective looks very un-familiar!
Any more thoughts?, anyone got any RHS stories?
Just thought!, whats the score with regard to a tandem seat a/c such as a YAK or chipy, and command from the rear?
[ 08 September 2001: Message edited by: window-seat ]
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Well, like I said...stand to be corrected.
However, to clarify on instructors:
In order to instruct for remuneration, a Flight Instructor (FI)/AFI (helicopters
or aeroplanes) must hold a JAR-FCL Class 1 medical certificate and a
commercial license.
However, an instructor may instruct on the private privileges of his license with
just a JAR-FCL Class 2 medical certificate, provided that he receives no
remuneration.
Requirement for CPL Knowledge
An applicant for an FI rating course must have met the CPL knowledge
requirements (JAR-FCL 1.335 and 2.335). However, an existing FI who has not
passed CPL level examinations (for instance a BCPL(R) holder), would not be
required to pass these examinations to renew or re-validate his FI rating,
unless his FI rating had lapsed by more than 5 years. A BCPL(R) holder
whose FI rating had lapsed by more than 5 years would need to pass the CPL
examinations before the FI rating could be renewed. However, once the rating
was renewed, he would be able to continue to instruct for remuneration,
provided that his BCPL(R) was itself still valid.
The requirements to renew an FI rating lapsed by less than 5 years are in
accordance with JAR-FCL 1.355 and 2.355 (FI refresher seminar and a
proficiency check).
However, to clarify on instructors:
In order to instruct for remuneration, a Flight Instructor (FI)/AFI (helicopters
or aeroplanes) must hold a JAR-FCL Class 1 medical certificate and a
commercial license.
However, an instructor may instruct on the private privileges of his license with
just a JAR-FCL Class 2 medical certificate, provided that he receives no
remuneration.
Requirement for CPL Knowledge
An applicant for an FI rating course must have met the CPL knowledge
requirements (JAR-FCL 1.335 and 2.335). However, an existing FI who has not
passed CPL level examinations (for instance a BCPL(R) holder), would not be
required to pass these examinations to renew or re-validate his FI rating,
unless his FI rating had lapsed by more than 5 years. A BCPL(R) holder
whose FI rating had lapsed by more than 5 years would need to pass the CPL
examinations before the FI rating could be renewed. However, once the rating
was renewed, he would be able to continue to instruct for remuneration,
provided that his BCPL(R) was itself still valid.
The requirements to renew an FI rating lapsed by less than 5 years are in
accordance with JAR-FCL 1.355 and 2.355 (FI refresher seminar and a
proficiency check).
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socrates
i appreciate that instructors are trained to a higher standard than the average PPL - I wasn't suggesting that flying from the RHS is a good idea, just that there are no rules against it.
i appreciate that instructors are trained to a higher standard than the average PPL - I wasn't suggesting that flying from the RHS is a good idea, just that there are no rules against it.
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I actually payed for some lessons flying from the RHS.
Why?
I had been asked a few times to go as a safety pilot with some of the less confident members after qualifiying.
One day the wind backed and increased so the PIC had a near limits xwind landing to achieve. After a couple of go arounds the tears started and i had to land it. After that i took the instructor up and did some circuits from the RHS just in case it happened again. I actually found it quite good fun.
MJ
Why?
I had been asked a few times to go as a safety pilot with some of the less confident members after qualifiying.
One day the wind backed and increased so the PIC had a near limits xwind landing to achieve. After a couple of go arounds the tears started and i had to land it. After that i took the instructor up and did some circuits from the RHS just in case it happened again. I actually found it quite good fun.
MJ
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Socrates - There's no requirement to have an FI rating to sit on the right hand seat. Nor does the seat you're in determine whether you can log PIC (not P1)
However it would be a foolish pilot who leapt into an unfamiliar situation like flying from the right, without trying it with a pilot or instructor on the left first. There is a detailed report on the AAIB web site of a crash involving (I think) a PA28 which stalled and spun in while being flown by an instructor in the RHS. A major factor was the positioning of the ASI which meant that the right-seater didn't have a clear view of it, and the reading could be misread.
However it would be a foolish pilot who leapt into an unfamiliar situation like flying from the right, without trying it with a pilot or instructor on the left first. There is a detailed report on the AAIB web site of a crash involving (I think) a PA28 which stalled and spun in while being flown by an instructor in the RHS. A major factor was the positioning of the ASI which meant that the right-seater didn't have a clear view of it, and the reading could be misread.
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Sorry, but on inspection I cannot see where I said that its a requirement to have an FI rating to sit on the right hand seat.
As for logging PIC/SPIC I am fully aware of the rules governing who may log what, when and how, but thankyou for the input.
As for your comment about the spinning/crashed aircraft I fail to understand your point.
Typically, on a training aircraft, such as PA28 to which you refer, there is no ASI on the RHS. How this is related to the inability/failure to recover from a spin by an instructor being unable to read it clearly is beyond me. An integral part of instructor training is, I believe, spin recovery.
When an aircraft is entered into a spin it is generally stalled, and therefore the ASI reading is relatively low. The most reliable instrument during a spin is the turn co-ordinator; this indicates the direction of the spin and allows for correct spin recovery initiation.
From memory, during my training I only look at the ASI once the aircraft is recovered from the spin to ensure that the airframe is not overloaded in the ensueing dive, at which point the a/c is eased out of that dive.
Maybe this is the situation that allowed the accident in which you refer to develop. Maybe you could elicit further details and post them here.
As for logging PIC/SPIC I am fully aware of the rules governing who may log what, when and how, but thankyou for the input.
As for your comment about the spinning/crashed aircraft I fail to understand your point.
Typically, on a training aircraft, such as PA28 to which you refer, there is no ASI on the RHS. How this is related to the inability/failure to recover from a spin by an instructor being unable to read it clearly is beyond me. An integral part of instructor training is, I believe, spin recovery.
When an aircraft is entered into a spin it is generally stalled, and therefore the ASI reading is relatively low. The most reliable instrument during a spin is the turn co-ordinator; this indicates the direction of the spin and allows for correct spin recovery initiation.
From memory, during my training I only look at the ASI once the aircraft is recovered from the spin to ensure that the airframe is not overloaded in the ensueing dive, at which point the a/c is eased out of that dive.
Maybe this is the situation that allowed the accident in which you refer to develop. Maybe you could elicit further details and post them here.
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You would have to be a fool to fly P1 in the seat opposite from that which it was designed to be flown as P1. Some of the Fireflys and all of the Grobs in the RAF are built to be flown P1 from the RHS with replicated instruments for the instructor on the LHS (something which should be considered for all training a/c IMHO). This is as in the Fast Jets and Helicopters, the commander sits with the throttle in the left hand (or collective) and the stick in the right hand (or cyclic). You may also find you have problems at first flying one wing low, in addition to PFL etc.
