scroggs, www, you say only 30% of wannabes make it!
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scroggs, www, you say only 30% of wannabes make it!
I'm rather interested by the comments both scroggs and WWW have made recently. Perhaps could you elaborate on why so many 'wannabes' give up. What is their major downfall etc?
Thanks!
Thanks!
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I must admit the statistics given by Scroggs in one particular thread (Can't remember which one now !!!) - something on the lines of "..about 70% of wannabes not getting their ideal job.." - did make me a tad flatulent !! Obviously employment opportunities are dependent on the present commercial climate etc - but are the odds really this bad guys ? Does this primarily include guys who simply surrender after said amout of years of trying ? Or is it largely guys who are simply not up to standard and un-employable, even though they have obtained CPL/IR frozen ATPL and thousands of hours ? I don't want to start a "Just because you have the qualifications doesn't mean you have a right to a job" debate, just curious that's all. Makes you wonder how many guys read this site that have never had a break or have quit completely. Sorry ST if I have nicked your thread - didn't mean to, only wanted to add to it !!!!
NB.
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Only the CAA know this
The information is not in the public domain
The information comes in the form of a class I renewal form
They know how old how many hours the type
the company etc etc..
We may never know?
We know the No of people with UK licences
as to what they are doing with them?
The information is not in the public domain
The information comes in the form of a class I renewal form
They know how old how many hours the type
the company etc etc..
We may never know?
We know the No of people with UK licences
as to what they are doing with them?
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it's more than 90%, probably 95%.
the reasons are:hours, most airlines ask for jet time., type rating, licenses not valid (after 1 year, you lose all your rights to fly).After the frozen ATP, cpl IR...it can take up to 10 years to get your ATP(500 h multi crew), personaly, I think if you don't find a job after 6 months you obtain your license, you have less chance to get a job unless you have a connction.
here I show what you should pay to obtain a job:ATP frozen:50K, 1500h on jet in a first officer program :40K, type rating :15K, extra(book, test, housing...) :15K, total :120K.
Anyway, more I read your posts on this web site, more I smile...and you know what, the schools are full of crazy teenagers who think that they are going to fly an airbus or a b737.Why don't they buy a flight simulator like FS 2000 instead?
anyway I say: it's not what you know, buy WHO you know!
the reasons are:hours, most airlines ask for jet time., type rating, licenses not valid (after 1 year, you lose all your rights to fly).After the frozen ATP, cpl IR...it can take up to 10 years to get your ATP(500 h multi crew), personaly, I think if you don't find a job after 6 months you obtain your license, you have less chance to get a job unless you have a connction.
here I show what you should pay to obtain a job:ATP frozen:50K, 1500h on jet in a first officer program :40K, type rating :15K, extra(book, test, housing...) :15K, total :120K.
Anyway, more I read your posts on this web site, more I smile...and you know what, the schools are full of crazy teenagers who think that they are going to fly an airbus or a b737.Why don't they buy a flight simulator like FS 2000 instead?
anyway I say: it's not what you know, buy WHO you know!
If you take the number of Class One medicals done at Gatwick (initial issue) and look 12 months hence at the number of CPL's issued you get a fair idea of the "got serious about it then gave up/failed".
From my sources the figure is an approx 22% rate of failure.
You have to properly define Wannabe and Failure to make better analysis.
Cheers,
WWW
From my sources the figure is an approx 22% rate of failure.
You have to properly define Wannabe and Failure to make better analysis.
Cheers,
WWW
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Yes, I did say probably 70% who don't make their dream job in a thread about the adviseability or otherwise of getting a degree. You're right that there are no real statistics on this, it's really a gut feeling based roughly on the annual number of licence and medical applications versus the annual number of commercial airline jobs available, combined with my own first-hand knowledge of the RAF selection system and the success rate of applicants there. The actual figure may be 15% either way.
You sound shocked that it should be such a high drop-out rate. I don't know why you are; aptitude problems, the costs of training, the difficulties of studies for the exams, and the relatively small numbers of jobs available all mean that this is a difficult field to get into, and many people get discouraged, many more simply fail. It's arguably easier now than in the past, but it's still bloody difficult, as so many posts on Pprune bear witness!
At the end of the day you can only look after yourself, but it does no harm to have a realistic view of the obstacles in your way.
You sound shocked that it should be such a high drop-out rate. I don't know why you are; aptitude problems, the costs of training, the difficulties of studies for the exams, and the relatively small numbers of jobs available all mean that this is a difficult field to get into, and many people get discouraged, many more simply fail. It's arguably easier now than in the past, but it's still bloody difficult, as so many posts on Pprune bear witness!
At the end of the day you can only look after yourself, but it does no harm to have a realistic view of the obstacles in your way.
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I'm not really too shocked as I know what other professions are like. For instance teaching has been in the papers recently stating a drop out rate of 40%. I don't really want to sound obsessive about this topic, although could someone please tell me which area claims the most wannabes! Is it the ATPL exams, CPL course, IR, or simply the lack of money for a sustained period?
I know that it is different for different people- some do well in exams and others don't etc etc- but generally speaking!
NewBloke, you didn't steal my thread, only added to it! Couldn't have put it better myself!
I know that it is different for different people- some do well in exams and others don't etc etc- but generally speaking!
NewBloke, you didn't steal my thread, only added to it! Couldn't have put it better myself!
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Difficult one to answer, as no-one tells us when they pack it in, let alone why! I'd be intersted to hear from a cross-section of those who didn't make it but, by its very nature, there won't be many who read this site.
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From the helicopter side of wannabes I have seen people drop out at all stages. And can see the same reason for fallout from the slab wing side.
I saw people drop out without being able to solo.
English not their first language and not being able to master it.
The largest drop out, during FAA helicopter, is on the instrument ticket. If you decide to go the FAA route you must do EVERYTHING otherwise you just become one of the many. Plus the amount of guys that get FAA tickets first but never convert is scary. More dropouts.
Financial....just not having enough money when they start. You must budget for EVERYTHING plus a little bit more. Checkride failures or exam retakes must be considered!!!
I even saw a guy get all the way to Instructor, land his first job and quit within his first 100 hours. Thought it was what he always wanted but found out real quick it wasn't!!!
You would be surprised the amount of people that get their tickets but can't afford to market themselves after. If your plan is to instruct and the place of study isn't offering you employment then door knocking shows YOU want to work. Your car will run on petrol and you can easily send a pile of resumes out without even a thank you reply.
Did you know that some people think they will be GIVEN a job because they have a licence. Reality an airline has a choice of who to employ. If you don't get taken on what is your Plan 'B'.
Lack of a plan on how to get a job. There are many people that start into aviation that have never interviewed for a job or even applied for one. Can you write a CV that gets you noticed??? Remember when you start with 30 others you will all start the search on the same day.... only the strong survive.
Land the first job but can't survive on the small salary and HAVE to quit to pay the bills.
Just don't find it what they always thought it would be and return to their previous career.
Welcome to aviation......
Good Luck All
I saw people drop out without being able to solo.
English not their first language and not being able to master it.
The largest drop out, during FAA helicopter, is on the instrument ticket. If you decide to go the FAA route you must do EVERYTHING otherwise you just become one of the many. Plus the amount of guys that get FAA tickets first but never convert is scary. More dropouts.
Financial....just not having enough money when they start. You must budget for EVERYTHING plus a little bit more. Checkride failures or exam retakes must be considered!!!
I even saw a guy get all the way to Instructor, land his first job and quit within his first 100 hours. Thought it was what he always wanted but found out real quick it wasn't!!!
You would be surprised the amount of people that get their tickets but can't afford to market themselves after. If your plan is to instruct and the place of study isn't offering you employment then door knocking shows YOU want to work. Your car will run on petrol and you can easily send a pile of resumes out without even a thank you reply.
Did you know that some people think they will be GIVEN a job because they have a licence. Reality an airline has a choice of who to employ. If you don't get taken on what is your Plan 'B'.
Lack of a plan on how to get a job. There are many people that start into aviation that have never interviewed for a job or even applied for one. Can you write a CV that gets you noticed??? Remember when you start with 30 others you will all start the search on the same day.... only the strong survive.
Land the first job but can't survive on the small salary and HAVE to quit to pay the bills.
Just don't find it what they always thought it would be and return to their previous career.
Welcome to aviation......
Good Luck All
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In my experience people often fail because they have a romantisised view of flying.
When the training becomes difficult and stressful all this goes out of the window and this is when the tough get going.
In a sense this is part of the training because when there is a major sytems
failure on a plane the CAN DO approach
is what counts. Nobody wants a quitter up front.
When the training becomes difficult and stressful all this goes out of the window and this is when the tough get going.
In a sense this is part of the training because when there is a major sytems
failure on a plane the CAN DO approach
is what counts. Nobody wants a quitter up front.
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Yes, one can underestimate the money required and more particularly the time it all takes
And time is money.
The maintenance of a Multi-engined IR
is not cheap for a Flight instructor !
'.. nice chap, plenty of experience but needs a bit more multi-engine time ...'
' ...no jet time .. no multicrew time
..MCC?... LOFT?... Type rating would be nice
Time on type Oh dear.....' etc etc
And time is money.
The maintenance of a Multi-engined IR
is not cheap for a Flight instructor !
'.. nice chap, plenty of experience but needs a bit more multi-engine time ...'
' ...no jet time .. no multicrew time
..MCC?... LOFT?... Type rating would be nice
Time on type Oh dear.....' etc etc
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And I bet it'll all be forgotten once you land a job.
I remember feeling like that trying to get my first IT job, 20 years ago, and boy I've forgotten it, and now I hate IT. I also recall the aptitude tests that are now absent.... etc etc etc.
PS
I remember feeling like that trying to get my first IT job, 20 years ago, and boy I've forgotten it, and now I hate IT. I also recall the aptitude tests that are now absent.... etc etc etc.
PS
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rotorbike,
I agree with you, lot of guys will not do the step, but english is not a reason.You just have to learn it(like I did).I saw only a few guys from Asia unable to master english after 2 years.
As for the job market, I received sometimes job from all over the world, but I'm not ready to run 10'000 miles just for an interview.But there are jobs outside, of course if a guy want fly a Boeing with his CPL, he limits his possibilities and he will probably go nowhere with such attitude.
Employers want see guys who are ready to work hard, to fly night in africa (by exemple), to deal with winter and bad weather, to deal with problems...with ANY problems.
If you can't, keep your money and stay in England, maybe Santa Klaus will put a Model of you favorite plane under your tree for next Christams.
I would like to add that I'm really pissed off by this "politic" runed by flying schools(no one worth the money you pay)), and it's amazing to see how many young people are ready to pay a "fortune" and ready to put themselves in debt just to get a job in a Commercial plane with Easy jet or BA...but, what Can I do?, it's their money and we live in a free country.If you are not enough smart to not understand that, you will have certainly to pay more than you have already paid.So, guys, good luck...I go fly my turbopop and log time (and be paid) when during this time you are working on your written to fly maybe later a A340.
I agree with you, lot of guys will not do the step, but english is not a reason.You just have to learn it(like I did).I saw only a few guys from Asia unable to master english after 2 years.
As for the job market, I received sometimes job from all over the world, but I'm not ready to run 10'000 miles just for an interview.But there are jobs outside, of course if a guy want fly a Boeing with his CPL, he limits his possibilities and he will probably go nowhere with such attitude.
Employers want see guys who are ready to work hard, to fly night in africa (by exemple), to deal with winter and bad weather, to deal with problems...with ANY problems.
If you can't, keep your money and stay in England, maybe Santa Klaus will put a Model of you favorite plane under your tree for next Christams.
I would like to add that I'm really pissed off by this "politic" runed by flying schools(no one worth the money you pay)), and it's amazing to see how many young people are ready to pay a "fortune" and ready to put themselves in debt just to get a job in a Commercial plane with Easy jet or BA...but, what Can I do?, it's their money and we live in a free country.If you are not enough smart to not understand that, you will have certainly to pay more than you have already paid.So, guys, good luck...I go fly my turbopop and log time (and be paid) when during this time you are working on your written to fly maybe later a A340.
I say there boy
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I'm not shocked by the figures. The thing that all should remember is that every hurdle you leap over on your way to that dream job (whether it's a pilot, lion tamer or whatever), your odds of success are increasing massively. Many will fall before the first fence.
Its those that stick at it due to planning, determination and just a little luck that make it. Don't just dream, do it. But for god's sake, go in with your eyes open!
Its those that stick at it due to planning, determination and just a little luck that make it. Don't just dream, do it. But for god's sake, go in with your eyes open!
