FAA ATP vs JAR ATPL
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: EU
FAA ATP vs JAR ATPL
Hello,
I would like to know.. What are the differences between US and EU flight school programs for ATP/ fATPL?
Which of them is better? How do they differ? What you get in US and don't in EU?
I searched everywhere.. all are about how to convert FAA to JAR.
But I want to know.. How do they differ, what differ in courses, certificates, training process, hours are? Is there any easy way to compare both these options?
I would like to know.. What are the differences between US and EU flight school programs for ATP/ fATPL?
Which of them is better? How do they differ? What you get in US and don't in EU?
I searched everywhere.. all are about how to convert FAA to JAR.
But I want to know.. How do they differ, what differ in courses, certificates, training process, hours are? Is there any easy way to compare both these options?
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 1
From: Mare Nostrum
fATPL doesn´t exist, it is just a de-facto term to mean that one has a CPL and completed their ATPL theory exams without meeting the experience requirements (flying hours).
In JAA land, there are 14 ATPL exams devided by subject. Also, there are 6 exams for the PPL that one usually gets before working towards the ATPL. The JAR ATPL will allow you to be PIC on European registered aircraft over 5700kg (and when I say European registered, I mean countries that are part of the JAR now EASA signatory)
In FAA land (USA), one takes a PPL theory paper, an IR theory paper, a CPL theory paper, and eventually when one is near the experience requirements for the FAA ATP, they will take the ATP paper. The exams usually only require two days of studying and they encompass all subjects in one exam of 100 questions. In the US, the oral exams, which are part of the checkrides, are pretty difficult (for example, a flight instructor checkride oral can last around 6 hours before the flight test). An FAA ATP will allow you to be PIC for aircraft for scheduled airline operations.
Training... Both routes lead to a CPL, and one usually gets a job appropriate for low time pilots until they have the flying experience required to get the ATP/ATPL.
JAA: There are typically two routes, modular and integrated. Plenty of threads on here about these two. Either route will lead you to a fATPL (remember, it is really a CPL with ATPL theory). These programs will take you about 18 to 30 months (depending integrated or modular respectively). JAA is good if you are a citizen of one of the European countries that are members of the JAA/EASA.
FAA: Two routes, part 61 and part 141. Part 141 programs have strict lesson plans and curriculum approved by the FAA and one can achieve the CPL with 190hrs. Part 61 is more of an at your own pace kind of deal, and a CPL requires 250 hrs. There are programs in the US where one can achieve 0hrs to CPL with all three instructor ratings (CFI, CFII, MEI) in literally 150 days. FAA is good if you have US Citizenship or a Green Card.
For those of us who have done both, we call the US method ¨Easy FAA¨. We also say that in USA, they teach you how to fly the airplane. In JAA land, they teach you how to build the aeroplane.
In JAA land, there are 14 ATPL exams devided by subject. Also, there are 6 exams for the PPL that one usually gets before working towards the ATPL. The JAR ATPL will allow you to be PIC on European registered aircraft over 5700kg (and when I say European registered, I mean countries that are part of the JAR now EASA signatory)
In FAA land (USA), one takes a PPL theory paper, an IR theory paper, a CPL theory paper, and eventually when one is near the experience requirements for the FAA ATP, they will take the ATP paper. The exams usually only require two days of studying and they encompass all subjects in one exam of 100 questions. In the US, the oral exams, which are part of the checkrides, are pretty difficult (for example, a flight instructor checkride oral can last around 6 hours before the flight test). An FAA ATP will allow you to be PIC for aircraft for scheduled airline operations.
Training... Both routes lead to a CPL, and one usually gets a job appropriate for low time pilots until they have the flying experience required to get the ATP/ATPL.
JAA: There are typically two routes, modular and integrated. Plenty of threads on here about these two. Either route will lead you to a fATPL (remember, it is really a CPL with ATPL theory). These programs will take you about 18 to 30 months (depending integrated or modular respectively). JAA is good if you are a citizen of one of the European countries that are members of the JAA/EASA.
FAA: Two routes, part 61 and part 141. Part 141 programs have strict lesson plans and curriculum approved by the FAA and one can achieve the CPL with 190hrs. Part 61 is more of an at your own pace kind of deal, and a CPL requires 250 hrs. There are programs in the US where one can achieve 0hrs to CPL with all three instructor ratings (CFI, CFII, MEI) in literally 150 days. FAA is good if you have US Citizenship or a Green Card.
For those of us who have done both, we call the US method ¨Easy FAA¨. We also say that in USA, they teach you how to fly the airplane. In JAA land, they teach you how to build the aeroplane.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: EU
Thank you very much, now I start to get the picture.
Why are there CFI, CFII, MEI certificates included in the FAA ATP scheme ? Are they also included in JAA CPL training program ? What do they mean and what you have to do to get/pass them? Are you supposed to train someone to get em, or just talk em through with your instructor pretending you are teaching?
BR.
Why are there CFI, CFII, MEI certificates included in the FAA ATP scheme ? Are they also included in JAA CPL training program ? What do they mean and what you have to do to get/pass them? Are you supposed to train someone to get em, or just talk em through with your instructor pretending you are teaching?
BR.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 1
From: Mare Nostrum
The CFI, CFII, and MEI are not necessarily included, but in the US, most pilots get these ratings after their CPL to get their first job and build hours (some schools in the US have programs where the ratings are included once you finish your CPL and then they hire you to teach at their school for awhile, for a good example, look at airline transport professionals). Many pilots at part 121 operations (scheduled airlines) were a flight instructor once upon a time and they often view those without flight instructor experience as less knowledgeable pilots. Also, with the new 1500 hour rule in the US, there won´t be pilots going to the airlines with 300hrs anymore like back in 2007. Getting the flight instructor ratings is usually the intermediary step between CPL and ATP in the USA.
CFI= Certified Flight Instructor
CFII= Certified Instrument Instructor
MEI= Multi Engine Instructor
In Europe, you won´t find many programs where they include instructor ratings. In Europe, pilots tend to go to airlines with less hours and also pay to fly is more common (it is almost non-existent in the US and will probably be killed when 1500hr rule comes into full effect).
The instructor ratings in the US include taking a written test, getting training with an instructor in both ground and flight, and taking a checkride which are very difficult (in the US, about half of the CFI candidates fail at least one of their instructor checkrides). You must have an approved examiner, either from the FAA or designated by the FAA.
In Europe, you have to attend an approved course with ground and flight instruction with an instructor and pass a flight test. There is usually 125hrs of theory, 30 hrs of flight, and when you are all done, you have a restricted Flight instructor rating which requires supervision and I think it is restricted to teaching PPL students. I´m sure someone here can expand/clarify/correct me since i´m not 100% on the JAA FI rating.
In Europe, they have FI=Flight instructor
IRI= Instrument Rating Instructor
there is also a separate rating for multi engine instructor and MCC instructor. Your flight tests must be completed by a FIE (flight instructor examiner)
also medicals are different...
FAA Class I - For ATP
FAA Class II - For CPL
FAA Class III - For PPL
JAR Class 1 - ATPL and CPL
JAR Class 2 - PPL
JAR Class 3 - ATC
CFI= Certified Flight Instructor
CFII= Certified Instrument Instructor
MEI= Multi Engine Instructor
In Europe, you won´t find many programs where they include instructor ratings. In Europe, pilots tend to go to airlines with less hours and also pay to fly is more common (it is almost non-existent in the US and will probably be killed when 1500hr rule comes into full effect).
The instructor ratings in the US include taking a written test, getting training with an instructor in both ground and flight, and taking a checkride which are very difficult (in the US, about half of the CFI candidates fail at least one of their instructor checkrides). You must have an approved examiner, either from the FAA or designated by the FAA.
In Europe, you have to attend an approved course with ground and flight instruction with an instructor and pass a flight test. There is usually 125hrs of theory, 30 hrs of flight, and when you are all done, you have a restricted Flight instructor rating which requires supervision and I think it is restricted to teaching PPL students. I´m sure someone here can expand/clarify/correct me since i´m not 100% on the JAA FI rating.
In Europe, they have FI=Flight instructor
IRI= Instrument Rating Instructor
there is also a separate rating for multi engine instructor and MCC instructor. Your flight tests must be completed by a FIE (flight instructor examiner)
also medicals are different...
FAA Class I - For ATP
FAA Class II - For CPL
FAA Class III - For PPL
JAR Class 1 - ATPL and CPL
JAR Class 2 - PPL
JAR Class 3 - ATC
Last edited by zondaracer; 6th February 2011 at 15:48.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,429
Likes: 1
From: Mare Nostrum
Also to add, both FAA and JAA licences are ICAO licences. If you want to go fly in China for example, and they want an ICAO licence, then either is fine.
Some people find doing FAA first then converting to JAA cheaper, some find it about the same since the conversion is not a cheap process. For me it was cheaper because I was in the US Air Force and I received money which covered about $17000 of my flight training (this money was called the Montgomery GI Bill).
The FAA method is definitely faster, so some may see the advantage of going to the US and getting their ratings, staying on to instruct until their Visa work experience expires, in the meantime studying for their JAA ATPL exams, then going back to Europe and taking the exams and finishing the conversion.
Also, FAA PPL/CPL/IR/ATP ratings never expire, you can lose currency but they don´t expire. JAA ratings expire and it can be costly to renew them.
Some people find doing FAA first then converting to JAA cheaper, some find it about the same since the conversion is not a cheap process. For me it was cheaper because I was in the US Air Force and I received money which covered about $17000 of my flight training (this money was called the Montgomery GI Bill).
The FAA method is definitely faster, so some may see the advantage of going to the US and getting their ratings, staying on to instruct until their Visa work experience expires, in the meantime studying for their JAA ATPL exams, then going back to Europe and taking the exams and finishing the conversion.
Also, FAA PPL/CPL/IR/ATP ratings never expire, you can lose currency but they don´t expire. JAA ratings expire and it can be costly to renew them.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
From: Douala
ZONDARACER you got it all figured out I think the best way to go is FAA first for the practical part then build 1000-1500 hours on mid size aircraft and come back for the JAA theoretical stuff and start flying the big iron!
