Multi Crew Pilot License(MPL) thoughts.....?

[Otto Throttle]

Correct excrab.

In fact, you can't even compare the MPL students with a regular CPL from an integrated course, as you can't just turn up at an airline with your licence and ask for a job. The MPL requires the direct involvement of an airline sponsor from the outset, and as such, MPL students are cherry-picked from the best candidates from the word go. Most CPL students are not.

So, you really have to compare sponsored CPL students with the MPL students, and I think you'll find that the ability and therefore subsequent quality, of the respective candidates is pretty evenly matched.

It makes me laugh to read all this rubbish at how much better 'commanders' CPL holders become with a whole extra 50 hours of trundling around the sky in a Piper Warrior with all the key decisions already made by their FTO. Thank goodness for all their extra valuable experience.

[Nikus]

Dear Contributers to this thread,
I have found your comments very interesting and quite informative.
I am still doing my study on MPL (http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...mpl-study.html) , please feel free to contribute, I will be very grateful for any input on this study, especially if you are a captain.
Best regrards
Nikita
The rationale behind the reasons for this study:
Why MPL is important to study:

• It is predicted by International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) that by 2026 the growth of airline industry will result in the number of airliners more than doubling. Only 20 percent of modern air fleet by then will be operational, which means 28.600 new aircraft deliveries (Hansen, Cherniavsky, Pilarinos, & Jackson, 2009). Overall there is need for 350.000 new pilots to fly them by 2026 (ICAO, 2010)
• The reasons behind the MPL is to insure a steady supply of quality first officers who are trained by a standardised procedure which makes the best use of modern instructional System Design (ISD) and latest of Flight Simulation Training Devices (FSTD) as well as teaching CRM and Threat and Error management (TEM) from “day one”. At the same time, it shortens the time it takes to qualify for the licence (ICAO). MPL can be considered to be the biggest rethink of ICAO regulations on Procedures for Air Navigation Services -Training (PANS- TRG)since it was laid down in 1944, until the Amendment 167 to Annex 1 was made that established a the new licence for the crew : MPL was brought in on 23 November 2006.
• “By 2015 it is intended to have the majority of the world’s ab-initio airline co-pilots trained through the MPL curriculum.” – IATA (2009)

Why study possible effects of MPL on CRM:

• Just before and when MPL came out, the International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Association (IFALPA) (2006) and European Cockpit Association (ECA) (2005, 2006) made statements to voice their concern about possible affects on lowering training standards by MPL compared with previous methods of Ab-Initio training. This concern was also shown by a study by Scheck (2006.) Although the IFALPA (2008) in a recent statement made it clear that it did see advantages in MPL, it still expressed concern. Similarly, ECA (2009) still voices concern about possible threat of MPL undermining the current safety standards.
• Pilots with more experience have an attitude that less experienced pilots might possibly contribute to errors and they are unable to come with the failure of automatics (Mitchell, Vermeulen, & Naidoo, 2009). So the question is: do pilots see the experience gained in simulators as being equal to actual flight time experience?
• Based on all that is mentioned above, my hypothesis is that MPL can have an effect on CRM, particularly Trans-Cockpit Authority Gradient. It is possible that this can have detrimental effects on CRM, and also on the captain mentoring the co-pilot.

[ReverseFlight]

How does the 250-hr MPL dovetail with the tentative proposals in the US for 1500-hr minimum for heavy jet newbies ? An exemption for MPL holders would make a nonsense of the proposals. Can someone kindly explain.

[zondaracer]

The idea of the MPL hasn´t takenoff in the US, and it won´t, especially with the new 1500 rule.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It says something when the nation with the most airline aircraft flying the most number of daily departures has utterly rejected the MPL.......

[rogerg]

It says something when the nation with the most airline aircraft flying the most number of daily departures has utterly rejected the MPL.......

Does this same nation have an FATPL system?

[zondaracer]

The US has a CPL system, and later when you meet the minimums for ATPL, you can test for ATPL. The idea of fATPL is actually not an official term. Those who have an fATPL in the JAR world actually only have a CPL, but they have passed the theoretical requirements for an ATPL. When they have the experience requirements, they can do the checkride for the ATPL, not much different than the FAA system. The big difference is that in the US, we don´t have 14 exams to get the ATPL, but rather 4 (private, instrument, commercial, ATP).

Some reasons for implementing the MPL in the US would have been because the rapid need for lots of pilots in 2004-2008, but with the economic downturn, the need for pilots quickly turned into an excess of pilots. Also, the old CPL method is a system which has existed for many decades without any large overhaul in training. Granted, guys coming out of flight training with little experience were flying jets and TPs, but since all their previous experience (little experience as it was) was on smaller piston driven aircraft, it seemed as if a new method of training could be beneficial. One where all training was focused on getting to a multicrew jet or TP. In the US, experience is still highly valued and as the airlines are slowly starting to hire again, and the introduction of the 1500 hr rule, the MPL probably will never came to fruition there.

[ReverseFlight]

Definition of MPL : A carve-out from the proposed 1,500 hour minimum requirement for pilots to fly large commercial aircraft (now under consideration in several major countries). A conflict of terms.

[student88]

Avoid at all costs.

[Guttn]

What one should ask oneself, before choosing ones training route, is why the EASA and the FAA are pulling in so different directions when it comes to employment minimums for FOs. The FAA`s background is due to several incidents with low experienced FOs, with the Colgan Q400 accident in NY state being what fronted the new 1500 hour TT rule for passenger carrying aircraft. The EASA, being in a more theoretical state of mind towards flying (e.g. the 14 ATPL exams) appear to be inclining towards the pilots-to-be who prefer to get all information and experience from reading books. Thus not being in need of real world deciscion making skills, because the cases have been experienced from books and briefed during sim sessions.

In a perfect world you should get the best of both worlds; a generally high amount of flying hours (subdivided into day/night/VMC/IMC/single pilot/multi pilot/SE/ME) as well as a sound theoretical background. But the world is far from perfect, so all you can do as an up-and-coming pilot is to give it your best. Doing the FAA route will reward you with more hands on flying experience than the EASA way, but reverted, the EASA way will give you more theoretical background but not as much stick and rudder deciscion making.

IMHO, the MPL is just another side of the SSTR and P2F scam. You don`t have to nearly kill yourself up to several times to gain experience - you just need to be up there (yes, in the air) in different situations and have done good preflight planning. The experience comes when not everthing goes as planned, and as we all know, the your world changes suddenly without any pre-programmed sim-instructor intervention. There is no flight-freeze function in the air. You just need to stick to it.

Potatowings, that`s some of the best posting I`ve read here in a very long time

[Tyreplug]

Contrary to what some (including myself) would like to believe, I understand that the MPL graduates at flybe have performed very well so far in the sim conversion. Time will of course tell when we see them on the line. I'm reserving judgement for the time being - My gut instinct is that hours with 'air under your butt' is considered at flybe of not much great value.

[Groundloop]

The FAA`s background is due to several incidents with low experienced FOs, with the Colgan Q400 accident in NY state being what fronted the new 1500 hour TT rule for passenger carrying aircraft.

Except in the Colgan case the 1500 hr rule may not have made any difference. The FO already had 2200 hours!!

[Guttn]

Groundloop, that is true. But in addition to the 1500 hr rule (they actually wanted newhire FOs to have an ATP), there are put forth regulations rgarding both training standards/methods, emphasis on how the 1500 hrs are put together (ME, night, icing etc), as well as a new look into the flight time regulations and payscales for regionals in the US. But, unfortunately, it took an accident and loss of life.

[aviofreek]

I know we live in a time where being "politically correct" is generally accepted before common sense and someone stating the obvious.
But I'll take the risk of sounding completely "politically incorrect and unacceptable "

ARE THEY DAFT??!!

MPL?? Seriously...? And what's the next step? Granting a pilot's license to anyone in excess of 100 hours TT in MS Flight Simulator X?? Maybe 200 hours TT for older versions of MS Flight Sim?

The real question is, and the one for all the certified pilots here, not those poor ignorant souls we call passengers and take for granted as just the number to fill the cabin. This is the question for people who actively fly.

How would YOU feel being a passenger on an A320 for example knowing that one of the pilots flying your aircraft has less exprience and knowledge than an average 250 hour TT PPL SEP pilot?

[brummielout]

90 Hours flight time is gained from the licence. Includes solo time, VFR navigation, single crew IFR flying, Multi-engine flying, and upset training. 120 hours is then spent what can only be described as introducing you into the Airline world and "way of doing things", and learning procedures to fly a large aircraft, specific to the airlines SOP's.

I can see exactly where people's issues lie with what sounds like a small amount of real time flying hours. But I really wish people would open their eyes to the alternative guy who will be sitting next to you in the RHS as you remenisce to the old days and cling onto NDB's. A CPL/IR cadet with 150 hours of single engine flying and twin engine flying. 20-30 hours of which have been in a dated twin prop simulator.

At the end of the day, you would love to fly with someone who has as much experience as possible for your own comfort. But really, take a look at the numbers, it's a drop in the ocean of inexperience. I had done a fair bit of flying before starting the MPL, and I'm glad I did so; who wouldn't be? but by no means do I feel superior in experience to any other MPL's or CPL's starting the line at an airline just because of a few more measely hours. All this talk of "let's just hope nobody is killed while an MPL is learning to fly" and bizjet stories on days of hard operations are quite irrelevant, Inexperience is simply that; Inexperience.

Just giving my (what will no doubt be received as useless and insubordinate) opinion from the other side of the fence where nobody will give their opinion of the licence to your face, just whinge about it in the crew room behind your back or rant about it on here on a late saturday night. Fantastic style there.

Cheers

[howflytrg]

Well said brummielout. Perhaps aviofreek can enlighten us to his massed superiority, sorry i should say training route. CPL/IR are we? Wow, really great. You seem to be trying to dig dirt on the MPL. Why? What has it done to you? Cost you a job after graduating perhaps? Please address your issues to CHIRP if you have a real problem with the system. EASA and the CAA do not appear to share your reservations. Obviously it must just be a mistake, they are waiting this sunday for your call to put them straight. You are after all in the seat of massed experience that they clearly are not.

[howflytrg]

Turns out aviofreek appears to be a teccy. Again, huge flying experience to draw your conclusion from......yawn. I wont tell you how to change an oil filter, or change over a tcas box, so stick to your area of expertise, and we will stick to ours.

Yes, pilots hate change, they really do. Pprune will show you that. But updating an out of date training system from the 40s/50s for the modern day has got to be a good thing.

[Flaymy]

brummilout:

When will an average MPL holder first sign for an aircraft?

I am not talking about flying solo. I could send a monkey solo with enough time and patience. I am talking about signing out an aircraft to go and fly, on your own authority. This entails a decision that the conditions are right. That the plan is sound. That you can cope when the plan goes to rats. That the aircraft is fit for purpose. That if anything goes wrong, up to and including total loss of power, you will be able to deal with it and have a fair chance of everyone surviving without serious injury.

That is where Captaincy starts: the decisions made on the ground. In CRM training you will be told that. You will not have experienced it.

This is a problem I have with the integrated course, and even some modular courses. Instructors check every decision. The first time many of these people sign for an aircraft on their own authority it has over 100 passengers, and more importantly that they have been flying for many thousands of hours, over many years without this experience. Yet they are expected to be monitoring the Captain and confirming every command decision from on duty to signing off the tech log

The MPL takes this problem and compounds it with lower experience of handling real aircraft.

Then there is the problem of AF447, where 228 people dies because one pilot made a basic error of handling and another with little command experience but in authority (the senior FO; the Captain did not enter the flight deck until very late) didn't take command. I've seen the latter happen in the sim, with two FOs flying together.

The fault in AF447 was probably largely with Airbus philosophy, pilots thinking their plane can't stall, but the fewer hours flying real aeroplanes the pilots have logged under their own authority, taking responsibility for themsleves, then the more likely accidents such as this.

I am just glad we will not see MPLs in GA. That is of course your biggest loss.

[Flaymy]

Tyreplug

They say that a great landing in the sim is like kissing your sister.

Doing well in the conversion course will save training budget and proves they can follow procedures when they are expecting it. With you my judgement is seriously reserved as to what these guy can do on the line.

[brummielout]

@flaymy

Not disregarding your points at all, they are completely good ones. If I was a passenger on a flight, idle minded and ignorant to the aviation world, I'd love to think the guys up front had thousands of hours experience and would be able to handle situations like you've pointed out. Or at least new guys in an airline had a fair amount of flying experience elsewhere before getting their hands on something with such responsibility.

But my point was, nobody, absolutely nobody who reaches the line out of "top" schools in europe has this kind of immense skygod material, CPL or MPL, doesn't make any difference. It's clearly picked up along the way, and it just cringes me when people brand the MPL as not a "real licence" but will happily sit there and accept that CPL guys are much finer aviators and have such better handling skills because they have about 30ish hours more flying looking at a 1:500 000.

I am just glad we will not see MPLs in GA. That is of course your biggest loss.

You will, a single engine, single crew rating is endorsed on the MPL after doing what is a whole PPL within the course. And if you moan about that then you may as well moan about every other PPL in the country with 45 hours and CPL guys at airlines who do 6 hours a year in the right hands seat just to keep the thing current.