Logging Line Training hours
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Logging Line Training hours
My apologies for posting this query as I'm sure it has been asked before, but I simply couldn't get any sense out of the search function here or on Google.
How should one log hours on Type while under line training, both before and after Safety Pilot Release?
I am happy to log hours as Multi-Engine and Multi-pilot, IFR and day or night depending on circumstances, but what of Pilot Function Time?
Are you a Co-pilot regardless of whether you operate the flight as PF or PM? Presumably not, as otherwise you'd never log hours PIC in order to unfreeze your ATPL?!
What effect does the Safety Pilot have on all this?
Thanks chaps and chapettes.
How should one log hours on Type while under line training, both before and after Safety Pilot Release?
I am happy to log hours as Multi-Engine and Multi-pilot, IFR and day or night depending on circumstances, but what of Pilot Function Time?
Are you a Co-pilot regardless of whether you operate the flight as PF or PM? Presumably not, as otherwise you'd never log hours PIC in order to unfreeze your ATPL?!
What effect does the Safety Pilot have on all this?
Thanks chaps and chapettes.
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Only the pilot in the LHS can log P1 time as they are PIC. You are NEVER PIC unless they die or are incapacitated and then there would be a legal argument over whether you are really PIC anyway given that they signed the tech log and loadsheet but that is straying off the point. If you ripped the gear off on a diversion with them ko'd beside you I would certainly be getting my lawyer to argue that anyway But anyway I digress....
The safety pilot in our airline won't be logging anything during your initial training. During line training I took the view that I was receiving dual training and logged it as such. Same for base training since I didn't have a type rating issued at that point.
Once I had been line checked then I started logging my time as P2 when I was PM. When flying a sector as PF on the line after my training was complete I would ensure that each skipper was happy for me to log the time as p1/s and had them initial my logbook. This was only for the purposes of getting the required hours for ATPL issue. There are rules about logging P1/s which are in LASORS. If the skipper takes control or overrides your decision making then you are no longer acting under their supervision as P1/s.
In reality should you go for another job then all your multi pilot time is either P2 or dual until you pass your command checks and can log P1. Up until that point your only splitting hairs and in reality keeping a tally for getting your ATPL. After that its plain sailing.
In practical terms I have one of those big black JAR FCL logbooks. I carried forward the totals of all my single and multi engine training into this book. That made it easy for me to distinguish at a later date for ATPL issue all of the various hours by a/c type, VFR/IFR,day/night etc etc. Trust me if you don't sort this out now (get the forms and have a look) you will spends days on excel trying to get it all to work and add up correctly. Its also a good idea to keep track of your airlines records and make sure that your logbook agrees with that. You may be required to provide to the TRE doing your ATPL skilltest a printout of your hours and this should agree to your logbook.
Above the P1 column I annotated in pen P1/s. In the remarks column I note whether I was PF or PM and things like Cat3 NO DH etc. When I am PM all my time goes into the "Co-pilot" column. When I am PF I put it under the "PIC" column which as I said I annotate with P1/s since I am not PIC.
If I was filling out an application form for another airline then all of my multi pilot time would be either P2 or Dual or F/O depending on how they wanted it split. The only real PIC time I have was when I was flying a single engine around hour building.
But anyway I digress....The safety pilot in our airline won't be logging anything during your initial training. During line training I took the view that I was receiving dual training and logged it as such. Same for base training since I didn't have a type rating issued at that point.
Once I had been line checked then I started logging my time as P2 when I was PM. When flying a sector as PF on the line after my training was complete I would ensure that each skipper was happy for me to log the time as p1/s and had them initial my logbook. This was only for the purposes of getting the required hours for ATPL issue. There are rules about logging P1/s which are in LASORS. If the skipper takes control or overrides your decision making then you are no longer acting under their supervision as P1/s.
In reality should you go for another job then all your multi pilot time is either P2 or dual until you pass your command checks and can log P1. Up until that point your only splitting hairs and in reality keeping a tally for getting your ATPL. After that its plain sailing.
In practical terms I have one of those big black JAR FCL logbooks. I carried forward the totals of all my single and multi engine training into this book. That made it easy for me to distinguish at a later date for ATPL issue all of the various hours by a/c type, VFR/IFR,day/night etc etc. Trust me if you don't sort this out now (get the forms and have a look) you will spends days on excel trying to get it all to work and add up correctly. Its also a good idea to keep track of your airlines records and make sure that your logbook agrees with that. You may be required to provide to the TRE doing your ATPL skilltest a printout of your hours and this should agree to your logbook.
Above the P1 column I annotated in pen P1/s. In the remarks column I note whether I was PF or PM and things like Cat3 NO DH etc. When I am PM all my time goes into the "Co-pilot" column. When I am PF I put it under the "PIC" column which as I said I annotate with P1/s since I am not PIC.
If I was filling out an application form for another airline then all of my multi pilot time would be either P2 or Dual or F/O depending on how they wanted it split. The only real PIC time I have was when I was flying a single engine around hour building.
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NOTE. If you're line training then you are a fully qualified, appropriately licenced pilot on that aircraft type. All you're doing is learning that airlines procedures. My comments below assume you're an FO.
DUAL
You only need to use the dual column for your circuits as you're not yet properly qualified and you're receiving instruction.
P2
All flight where you are PM are logged under P2 whether line training with a safety pilot, without a safety pilot or normal line flying
P1/S (or P1 u/s)
Where you are PF you use the P1 column but use either of the above annotations. Once you start command training then ALL your flights go under P1/S until you have passed the final line check, thereafter, obviously, you log it as P1.
As an FO, by using the P2 and P1 columns (assuming you log each flight individually) then you can see at a glance who was PF/PM. As a captain, I note PF/PNF in the remarks column in respect of myself incase a need to refer back.
Instrument time can be logged while you are PF but would only be the flight time not the block time.
Night flying as PM also fully counts towards your total night hours required for the ATPL which I reckon is a marvellous arrangement!
DUAL
You only need to use the dual column for your circuits as you're not yet properly qualified and you're receiving instruction.
P2
All flight where you are PM are logged under P2 whether line training with a safety pilot, without a safety pilot or normal line flying
P1/S (or P1 u/s)
Where you are PF you use the P1 column but use either of the above annotations. Once you start command training then ALL your flights go under P1/S until you have passed the final line check, thereafter, obviously, you log it as P1.
As an FO, by using the P2 and P1 columns (assuming you log each flight individually) then you can see at a glance who was PF/PM. As a captain, I note PF/PNF in the remarks column in respect of myself incase a need to refer back.
Instrument time can be logged while you are PF but would only be the flight time not the block time.
Night flying as PM also fully counts towards your total night hours required for the ATPL which I reckon is a marvellous arrangement!
Thread Starter
Golly. I better sort out my logbook now rather than leave it a few months and find myself spending my precious weekends squinting over rows of numbers.
Thanks for the helpful advice. I will take heed.
Thanks for the helpful advice. I will take heed.
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MH, as you are type rated all your hours are P2.
Potkettle and Irish Jet Drivers statements about logging P1u/s when handling pilot is totally incorrect in UK/EU. There are very specific requirements for logging that category, see many previous threads on the subject, but P1u/s has NOTHING whatsoever to do with who is PF.
Under no circumstances whatsoever could you log P1u/s while under initial FO line training. That would be a contradiction in terms.
If in doubt, ask your Training Captain to clarify this really very simple subject which for some reason is widely misunderstood.
P1 = Captain of the aircraft, no matter who is flying it. (Obvious, isn't it?)
P2 = Co-pilot, no matter who is flying it. (Equally obvious)
P1 under supervision = an experienced FO who, under the pre- arranged supervision of the Capt has carried out all the actions of a commander from beginning to end of a flight or series of flights- ie from crewroom pre-flight duties, weather, fuel, notams, crew brief, dealt with all ground staff matters, made all decisions relating to the flight/s until their completion without being significantly overridden. Again, it is clear that it has nothing to do with who flew the aeroplane - what is being signed for is "acting as Commander". P1u/s would usually cover all the sectors flown on a particular day. Though as you can see it is often not done correctly!
It will come in time, but is widely seen as irrelevant nowadays as the CAA seems to accept a statement from the airline that this requirement has been "satisfied".
Potkettle and Irish Jet Drivers statements about logging P1u/s when handling pilot is totally incorrect in UK/EU. There are very specific requirements for logging that category, see many previous threads on the subject, but P1u/s has NOTHING whatsoever to do with who is PF.
Under no circumstances whatsoever could you log P1u/s while under initial FO line training. That would be a contradiction in terms.
If in doubt, ask your Training Captain to clarify this really very simple subject which for some reason is widely misunderstood.
P1 = Captain of the aircraft, no matter who is flying it. (Obvious, isn't it?)
P2 = Co-pilot, no matter who is flying it. (Equally obvious)
P1 under supervision = an experienced FO who, under the pre- arranged supervision of the Capt has carried out all the actions of a commander from beginning to end of a flight or series of flights- ie from crewroom pre-flight duties, weather, fuel, notams, crew brief, dealt with all ground staff matters, made all decisions relating to the flight/s until their completion without being significantly overridden. Again, it is clear that it has nothing to do with who flew the aeroplane - what is being signed for is "acting as Commander". P1u/s would usually cover all the sectors flown on a particular day. Though as you can see it is often not done correctly!
It will come in time, but is widely seen as irrelevant nowadays as the CAA seems to accept a statement from the airline that this requirement has been "satisfied".
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 5th Mar 2010 at 22:18.
Thread Starter
Thanks for that Agaricus bisporus.
Yeah, aside from having 500 hours on a Multi-pilot aeroplane and 250 hours as PIC on any aeroplane, the rest of the requirements involving PIC/US can be satisfied by a letter from the Operator.
Cheers.
the CAA seems to accept a statement from the airline that this requirement has been "satisfied"
Cheers.
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As you can see there is a range of theory's on the subject.
Agaricus bisporus is correct in what the spirit behind the regulations was meant to be.
In practise most pilots do it like the others have said.
To be honest if you already have the required PIC time for ATPL issue it makes not a jot of difference what you log as nobody cares about PICUS.
Once you make LHS people are only interested in PIC time so PICUS becomes a PITA when you are pulling numbers out of your log book.
Personally I got all my PIC time through instructing (all VFR with very little command descisions relating to operating a multi crew aircraft) and only logged copilot when in the RHS.
Speak to your line trainer about the way your company does it. You get Captains that really do hit the roof if they think you are logging it and others that really don't care one little bit. Most folk don't get thier log books signed every trip they log it and most companys just give you a letter saying your hours are correct which the CAA accept with no issues.
Agaricus bisporus is correct in what the spirit behind the regulations was meant to be.
In practise most pilots do it like the others have said.
To be honest if you already have the required PIC time for ATPL issue it makes not a jot of difference what you log as nobody cares about PICUS.
Once you make LHS people are only interested in PIC time so PICUS becomes a PITA when you are pulling numbers out of your log book.
Personally I got all my PIC time through instructing (all VFR with very little command descisions relating to operating a multi crew aircraft) and only logged copilot when in the RHS.
Speak to your line trainer about the way your company does it. You get Captains that really do hit the roof if they think you are logging it and others that really don't care one little bit. Most folk don't get thier log books signed every trip they log it and most companys just give you a letter saying your hours are correct which the CAA accept with no issues.
