Are you sure you want to be a pilot?
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Are you sure you want to be a pilot?
I am a full-time pilot with easyJet, but have become aware of the latest offering from easyJet to the CTC flexicrew pilots. It is truly dire and I have been asked by a number of people to bring attention to the arrangement on offer. There seems widespread agreement that it is in everyone's interests for the details to become known to the wider easyJet pilot community. The key points are:
There will be around 200 contract FOs next summer - quite a large proportion of FOs and the total pilots in the airline. This is a lot to take in 18 months and seems to be the direction the company are taking in order to push down Ts and Cs. Inevitably this will eventually affect Ts and Cs of current easy pilots, and make BALPA completely ineffective.
A three year contract. This is clearly laying down the plan for the future and emulates the Brookfield deal at Ryanair.
Paid around half of Ryanair rate (specifics deliberately not quoted for contractual reasons) for scheduled block hours and set amount for stand bys. No payments for duty hours, positioning, delays or cancelled flights, even if the crew have already turned up.
No guaranteed hours or money, not guaranteed any work at all.
Charged for Uniform.
No staff travel.
No notice of base transfers required.
3 months notice period, even though on random rosters and no work guaranteed.
There are significant concerns of cadets going bankrupt. Some cadets already have court dates. Current payments for most cadets is £1200 a month. Banks are no longer prepared to defer or take reduced payments any longer. With no guaranteed hours cadets cant be sure of making payments each month.
Safety issues. BALPA have raised cadets distracted due outside stresses mainly financial. With no minimum income and transfers likely, guys will be left struggling with accommodation which they can neither commit to or afford. Some of the FOs are already completing long commutes before work and sleeping on the floor of other FOs houses, in their cars, or on the crew room floor already. There are at least 3 cadets that I am aware of on anti-depressants, due to the stress they are experiencing. This is simply unacceptable and absolutely must be brought to an end.
Commercial issues arise of how the image of the airline may be damaged with bankrupt FOs and the lowest terms and conditions in the industry.
EasyJet already seem to be taking advantage of the situation. LGW FOs are reduced down to now averaging between 20-30 hours next month (£1290 best case scenario before tax), which is not even enough to make the loan/bond repayments. Everyone also seems to be doing a lot of positioning.
Cadets are currently attempting to stand together and refuse terms and conditions. They desperately need the support of the greater work force. Through guys challenging managers at SEP, and sharing the information so this becomes an issue that needs tackling this can be successfully fought. We need guys to petition BALPA to become more involved. This is an issue that affects the entire pilot workforce. While Andy Harrison talks of pilot re-engagement substantially more than 10% of our pilots are living on starvation wages and facing financial extinction. This is simply not acceptable and needs to be addressed urgently. This is the number one issue at easyJet and makes rostering issues etc pale into insignificance.
There will be around 200 contract FOs next summer - quite a large proportion of FOs and the total pilots in the airline. This is a lot to take in 18 months and seems to be the direction the company are taking in order to push down Ts and Cs. Inevitably this will eventually affect Ts and Cs of current easy pilots, and make BALPA completely ineffective.
A three year contract. This is clearly laying down the plan for the future and emulates the Brookfield deal at Ryanair.
Paid around half of Ryanair rate (specifics deliberately not quoted for contractual reasons) for scheduled block hours and set amount for stand bys. No payments for duty hours, positioning, delays or cancelled flights, even if the crew have already turned up.
No guaranteed hours or money, not guaranteed any work at all.
Charged for Uniform.
No staff travel.
No notice of base transfers required.
3 months notice period, even though on random rosters and no work guaranteed.
There are significant concerns of cadets going bankrupt. Some cadets already have court dates. Current payments for most cadets is £1200 a month. Banks are no longer prepared to defer or take reduced payments any longer. With no guaranteed hours cadets cant be sure of making payments each month.
Safety issues. BALPA have raised cadets distracted due outside stresses mainly financial. With no minimum income and transfers likely, guys will be left struggling with accommodation which they can neither commit to or afford. Some of the FOs are already completing long commutes before work and sleeping on the floor of other FOs houses, in their cars, or on the crew room floor already. There are at least 3 cadets that I am aware of on anti-depressants, due to the stress they are experiencing. This is simply unacceptable and absolutely must be brought to an end.
Commercial issues arise of how the image of the airline may be damaged with bankrupt FOs and the lowest terms and conditions in the industry.
EasyJet already seem to be taking advantage of the situation. LGW FOs are reduced down to now averaging between 20-30 hours next month (£1290 best case scenario before tax), which is not even enough to make the loan/bond repayments. Everyone also seems to be doing a lot of positioning.
Cadets are currently attempting to stand together and refuse terms and conditions. They desperately need the support of the greater work force. Through guys challenging managers at SEP, and sharing the information so this becomes an issue that needs tackling this can be successfully fought. We need guys to petition BALPA to become more involved. This is an issue that affects the entire pilot workforce. While Andy Harrison talks of pilot re-engagement substantially more than 10% of our pilots are living on starvation wages and facing financial extinction. This is simply not acceptable and needs to be addressed urgently. This is the number one issue at easyJet and makes rostering issues etc pale into insignificance.
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I'm a pilot currently qualifying. I'm finding this very hard news to understand and worrying. How can airlines get away with this? I'm a modular student as it is far too expensive to go the intergrated route. I can't even afford a type rating and I know i'm not alone.
I think we need to go back to the way it use to be. Work your way to the top with hours. I know countries that won't allow low time pilots in big jets. For example to fly a Q400 with Porter Airlines you need min 3000hrs and so you need to build hours flying for small companies or instruct. It seems to me that airlines are exploiting low time pilots who dream to fly the airline route only.
Porter Airlines a Canadian run airline requires the following:
Porter Airlines
FIRST OFFICER Duties and Responsibilities:
Does a doctor need to pay to see patients?
I think we need to go back to the way it use to be. Work your way to the top with hours. I know countries that won't allow low time pilots in big jets. For example to fly a Q400 with Porter Airlines you need min 3000hrs and so you need to build hours flying for small companies or instruct. It seems to me that airlines are exploiting low time pilots who dream to fly the airline route only.
Porter Airlines a Canadian run airline requires the following:
Porter Airlines
FIRST OFFICER Duties and Responsibilities:
- Safe operation of the aircraft.
- Airline Transport Pilot Licence (Transport Canada)
- Category I Medical
- Current Instrument Rating
- Min. 3,000 Hours Total Time
- Min. 500 Hours Multi-Engine PIC
- Aviation College or University Degree is an asset;
- Pilots that do not meet the minimum requirements may be considered based on experience and other factors.
Does a doctor need to pay to see patients?
Gender Faculty Specialist
airlines are exploiting low time pilots who dream to fly the airline route only.
You can fly a Q400 in the UK with 200 hours, you don't pay for the type rating, uniform, ID, car parking or indeed anything. Doesn't that seem a lot more attractive than the alternative?
But it's not good enough for some of these precious oafs.
I'm afraid to say that they've brought it upon themselves.
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I don't agree with what airlines globally are doing with Flight Crew Terms and Conditions and I agree that squeezing them is causing financial stresses which will ultimately affect ability to perform and consequently the safety of the flight. We all have a responsibility to identify and mitigate this risk.
If cadets have borrowed heavily to fund training then they must appreciate that the money needs to be paid back - I would hope they knew the risks when they were signing for and drawing the loans down. It is no concern of the airline how they funded their training and if the whole of their wage is blown making loan repayments then that is just tough luck.
Practically these cadets need to seriously weigh up their options, if things are that bad, they have no assets to sell and the borrowings are unsecured then personal bankruptcy should be considered a real option. Like ditching an aircraft it is a very last resort after all others have been exhausted.
Personal Bankruptcy no longer has the stigma it once did but nonetheless it's long term effect can cause you problems obtaining credit in the future but no more I would imagine than a string of credit defaults and continuing repayments.
The long term view for most of the cadets is bleak given the high loan repayment - this will not change regardless of how you resolve the issue - it is 'blue sky' attitude that everything will work out that got you all into this situation. What you are able to do by 'going broke' is make your current day to day circumstances more bearable. Yes, for a period of just one year the trustee will make a big deduction from your salary to pay you creditors but he must by law leave you enough to live on. After one year all your debts are gone and your salary is your own.
Look this is not the answer to everyones problem and it does not offer an easy solution to the problems caused by Airlines squeezing T&C's but hopefully it offers practical, albeit drastic advice for some to make their next command decision.
Good Luck to you all.
Biggles
If cadets have borrowed heavily to fund training then they must appreciate that the money needs to be paid back - I would hope they knew the risks when they were signing for and drawing the loans down. It is no concern of the airline how they funded their training and if the whole of their wage is blown making loan repayments then that is just tough luck.
Practically these cadets need to seriously weigh up their options, if things are that bad, they have no assets to sell and the borrowings are unsecured then personal bankruptcy should be considered a real option. Like ditching an aircraft it is a very last resort after all others have been exhausted.
Personal Bankruptcy no longer has the stigma it once did but nonetheless it's long term effect can cause you problems obtaining credit in the future but no more I would imagine than a string of credit defaults and continuing repayments.
The long term view for most of the cadets is bleak given the high loan repayment - this will not change regardless of how you resolve the issue - it is 'blue sky' attitude that everything will work out that got you all into this situation. What you are able to do by 'going broke' is make your current day to day circumstances more bearable. Yes, for a period of just one year the trustee will make a big deduction from your salary to pay you creditors but he must by law leave you enough to live on. After one year all your debts are gone and your salary is your own.
Look this is not the answer to everyones problem and it does not offer an easy solution to the problems caused by Airlines squeezing T&C's but hopefully it offers practical, albeit drastic advice for some to make their next command decision.
Good Luck to you all.
Biggles
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There is one very simple solution to the individual, if you don't like the contact put infront of you, DON'T ACCEPT IT!
Or is paying for a TR/Line Training too precious, ensuring you gain "some sort" of experience flying a jet, but are further in debt, before your kicked out onto the street again?
If I had a bad contract given to me, yes I'd study it, just like your doing now and I would walk away if it's that $hit (this contract seems to be) and go into another job (I previously turned down a low salary in the airline industry and went into a much better paid job in another and now using that to pay for my training - and note I'm not in debt) or even get another job to increase that monthly salary. Yes I would have to work harder (been there, done that already etc) and won't be in the industry I trained for, but at least I wouldn't regret my decision and feel I'm being used!
I totally agree why your all angry, I would be too, but the management know that there are some desperate ones who will accept this contract.
If you were "bonded" to EZY and knew about this contract before you embarked on a CTC/OAA scheme, would have you bothered doing this training? .... most answers would be no. Thankfully people going through CTC/OAA etc are not "bonded" by this company, but you decide whether to work for them or not.
EZY is 1 airline, how many are there out there, 100's? Just because they are recruiting right now to "use" you, does it mean you have to accept it? Be patient and work for another better airline on better T's and C's.
Have any of these EZY pilots on these contracts got other jobs, whilst they don't fly, I sure would!!??
Until pilots stop paying for TR/Line training and stop accepting these T's and C's then things will change.
I know it's easy saying when you aren't lumped with all this debt like these CTC/OAA guys but you lot are being "used" for your ££££££ like you have been before.
What did CTC/OAA say if in the unlikely event of being in a recession/industry low, is there a way and means of minimising the loan payments back or didn't you ask this key question?
If the answer is the risk is on the cadets shoulders as you have to pay back a loan regardless of what the circumstances are, then you've got to be 1000% sure you have thought out the worst case scenario and how you would manage it, before you sign any line agreeing to do a full-time time course.
Only YOU as the individual concerned can take action of some sort whether quitting or getting another job, will help sort this one out.
What's the chance you could get a better job doing something else to pay off those debts?
Are any "non fully trained" CTC pilots being taken on by EZY i.e. pilots done their training e.g. modular way and completed JOC/MCC at CTC and being offered different contracts with EZY? .... I know of one, but this was "before" this new contract came about and they aren't affected and note they trained by the "modular" route at a number of FTO's.
Or is paying for a TR/Line Training too precious, ensuring you gain "some sort" of experience flying a jet, but are further in debt, before your kicked out onto the street again?
If I had a bad contract given to me, yes I'd study it, just like your doing now and I would walk away if it's that $hit (this contract seems to be) and go into another job (I previously turned down a low salary in the airline industry and went into a much better paid job in another and now using that to pay for my training - and note I'm not in debt) or even get another job to increase that monthly salary. Yes I would have to work harder (been there, done that already etc) and won't be in the industry I trained for, but at least I wouldn't regret my decision and feel I'm being used!
I totally agree why your all angry, I would be too, but the management know that there are some desperate ones who will accept this contract.
If you were "bonded" to EZY and knew about this contract before you embarked on a CTC/OAA scheme, would have you bothered doing this training? .... most answers would be no. Thankfully people going through CTC/OAA etc are not "bonded" by this company, but you decide whether to work for them or not.
EZY is 1 airline, how many are there out there, 100's? Just because they are recruiting right now to "use" you, does it mean you have to accept it? Be patient and work for another better airline on better T's and C's.
Have any of these EZY pilots on these contracts got other jobs, whilst they don't fly, I sure would!!??
Until pilots stop paying for TR/Line training and stop accepting these T's and C's then things will change.
I know it's easy saying when you aren't lumped with all this debt like these CTC/OAA guys but you lot are being "used" for your ££££££ like you have been before.
What did CTC/OAA say if in the unlikely event of being in a recession/industry low, is there a way and means of minimising the loan payments back or didn't you ask this key question?
If the answer is the risk is on the cadets shoulders as you have to pay back a loan regardless of what the circumstances are, then you've got to be 1000% sure you have thought out the worst case scenario and how you would manage it, before you sign any line agreeing to do a full-time time course.
Only YOU as the individual concerned can take action of some sort whether quitting or getting another job, will help sort this one out.
What's the chance you could get a better job doing something else to pay off those debts?
Are any "non fully trained" CTC pilots being taken on by EZY i.e. pilots done their training e.g. modular way and completed JOC/MCC at CTC and being offered different contracts with EZY? .... I know of one, but this was "before" this new contract came about and they aren't affected and note they trained by the "modular" route at a number of FTO's.
Last edited by Cirrus_Clouds; 28th Jan 2010 at 08:29.
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It drives me potty that these tools are signing up to such schemes, and what really makes me mad is that in doing so they are effecting their own future earnings and as soon as they are an experienced FO kick em out the door and hire another tool to do it for free.
It is effecting their own future careers!! complete
I am currently training now, and reading this makes me think is it worth while?? luckliy I am doing it debt free so wont have the hangovers mentioned above but will i look forward to these terms also...
I am angry with the airlines for treating their staff like this, but I cant blame them, supply and demand and the constant drive to get more profit and sales than the previous years, to get everything cheaper.
The ONLY way it will stop will be if these tools stop signing up to it!! it really is that simple! DONT DO IT!!!
This really does sum up everything that is wrong with society today, people want everything now, brand new cars, big tellys, instant fame from big brother and britains not got talent, rather than ever working for anything. Looking down their noses at instructing/air taxi/TPs etc..all in a mad rush to accept this sh*it.
It is effecting their own future careers!! complete
I am currently training now, and reading this makes me think is it worth while?? luckliy I am doing it debt free so wont have the hangovers mentioned above but will i look forward to these terms also...
I am angry with the airlines for treating their staff like this, but I cant blame them, supply and demand and the constant drive to get more profit and sales than the previous years, to get everything cheaper.
The ONLY way it will stop will be if these tools stop signing up to it!! it really is that simple! DONT DO IT!!!
This really does sum up everything that is wrong with society today, people want everything now, brand new cars, big tellys, instant fame from big brother and britains not got talent, rather than ever working for anything. Looking down their noses at instructing/air taxi/TPs etc..all in a mad rush to accept this sh*it.
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EZY contract
Shocking stuff.
Has anyone got a copy to send to the press with the concerns. BALPA seem to be totally useless at doing anything to highlight the potential risks.
I work for a regional operator and things are not that bad. But reading this stuff is desperately worrying as we all have a few years left in the industry and may, in time, wantto move on.
Has anyone got a copy to send to the press with the concerns. BALPA seem to be totally useless at doing anything to highlight the potential risks.
I work for a regional operator and things are not that bad. But reading this stuff is desperately worrying as we all have a few years left in the industry and may, in time, wantto move on.
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The press will only care if an accident happens.
They have been a couple of articles on it recently on pilots in states, only got middle of paper press, or online links tucked away within the bowels of the website.
Joe public wont care, they just want cheap flights. If a safety incident were to occur then it would be a different matter..
I can already hear the airlines pre-written defence,
"said pilot was fully qualified to fly the type of aircraft and has satisfied all JAA requirements..., the said pilot actually recieves a salary of £50 per hour which is very good compared to the rest of the country in times of recesion"
not mentioning it is only £50 per hour when they are actually flying...which is what the public think happens, walk up, start the jet and off to malaga.
Only way to stop it is to not sign up to it!! walk away from OAA/CTC, never pay to work. Don't be a cock.
They have been a couple of articles on it recently on pilots in states, only got middle of paper press, or online links tucked away within the bowels of the website.
Joe public wont care, they just want cheap flights. If a safety incident were to occur then it would be a different matter..
I can already hear the airlines pre-written defence,
"said pilot was fully qualified to fly the type of aircraft and has satisfied all JAA requirements..., the said pilot actually recieves a salary of £50 per hour which is very good compared to the rest of the country in times of recesion"
not mentioning it is only £50 per hour when they are actually flying...which is what the public think happens, walk up, start the jet and off to malaga.
Only way to stop it is to not sign up to it!! walk away from OAA/CTC, never pay to work. Don't be a cock.
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box: I have about as much sympathy for the bankrupt FO at Sleazyjet as my deceased pet goldfish. Why did they sign if they knew the conditions were pure manure?
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because they are complete ring pieces.
I dont have sympathy for them in the slightest, they paid over the odds at OAA/ctc, they signed the contract with sleazy. it just p*sses me off seeing them degrade the t+c for everyone else.
I know its judgemental, but I bet 90% of the people that signed that had mummy and daddy pay for OAA, and mummy and daddy support them in the salvery contract. No hard working person that has saved up and worked their nuts off would agree to that.
My fear is within 10 years everyone will be on a contract, no one paid full time. Even captains, TRE, etc etc.
Do not sign these contracts or we will put a contract out on you!
I dont have sympathy for them in the slightest, they paid over the odds at OAA/ctc, they signed the contract with sleazy. it just p*sses me off seeing them degrade the t+c for everyone else.
I know its judgemental, but I bet 90% of the people that signed that had mummy and daddy pay for OAA, and mummy and daddy support them in the salvery contract. No hard working person that has saved up and worked their nuts off would agree to that.
My fear is within 10 years everyone will be on a contract, no one paid full time. Even captains, TRE, etc etc.
Do not sign these contracts or we will put a contract out on you!
Last edited by UAV689; 28th Jan 2010 at 15:45.
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I laugh at the bit in the first post that says
'Cadets are currently attempting to stand together and refuse terms and conditions'
They couldn't get signing upto this deal fast enough and now they are in a position to change the t's and c's of the contract. I don't think so!!!!!!
'Cadets are currently attempting to stand together and refuse terms and conditions'
They couldn't get signing upto this deal fast enough and now they are in a position to change the t's and c's of the contract. I don't think so!!!!!!
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Do I get the impression that these guys/families think this job will be a bed of roses? .... Until the *hit hits the fan then a reality check sinks in, pitty they didn't realise much earlier and play safe.
Saying that CTC/OAA have other airline links that will no doubt at some point become useful.
If people start signing up to EZY on this contract, then quit moaning, you had a choice to do it or not.
I don't know why we're bothering to talk about this any longer, simple answer is walk away and go for a company that appreciates your effort/hard work and has good T's and C's, even in another industry for a short period.
Simples!
Saying that CTC/OAA have other airline links that will no doubt at some point become useful.
If people start signing up to EZY on this contract, then quit moaning, you had a choice to do it or not.
I don't know why we're bothering to talk about this any longer, simple answer is walk away and go for a company that appreciates your effort/hard work and has good T's and C's, even in another industry for a short period.
Simples!
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Just out of interest, who do these knobheads work for? It is CTC or EasyJet or is another party? The reason I ask is that they could get together en-mass get BALPA recognition in their own right and then start insisting on things like a permanent contract, being paid for standbys, payment for base changes etc. If not, they'll be the airline equivalent of girly-boys in prisons for the rest of their very short careers. The more there are of them, the more the system needs them and a swift nudge in Easy's nuts won't do them any harm but might actually do them some good.
PM
And I presume that Easy's OPs Manual says how trainees not employed by Easy are to be trained on line and that their Airside passes have the names of their employer on them? Because they are employed, aren't they? It would be a shame if administrative errors were made.
PM
And I presume that Easy's OPs Manual says how trainees not employed by Easy are to be trained on line and that their Airside passes have the names of their employer on them? Because they are employed, aren't they? It would be a shame if administrative errors were made.
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So the CTC guys have been labelled 'tools', 'cocks', 'ringpieces' and 'knobheads' by their colleagues on this website, amongst others. I wonder - what motivation does anybody have to please or help another person when that person thinks they're scum?
On a more logical note - most pilots don't read PPRuNe, that's a fact. I'd say 80% don't, based on the old 'do you read proon much'? Incidentally most think it's a load of ****e, but that's a different matter completely.
My point is - how do these guys know they are degrading the T + Cs of the industry if nobody's told them what they're doing isn't normal? So they don't read any online professional flying websites. No info there then. Will the FTO tell them? Fat chance. The airline? Nope. In fact, the first time they're likely to understand what they're doing is now. Right now. Now the ****'s hit the fan. As far as they're concerned, until they start working for the airline, this might be the way it's been done since the beginning...
On a more logical note - most pilots don't read PPRuNe, that's a fact. I'd say 80% don't, based on the old 'do you read proon much'? Incidentally most think it's a load of ****e, but that's a different matter completely.
My point is - how do these guys know they are degrading the T + Cs of the industry if nobody's told them what they're doing isn't normal? So they don't read any online professional flying websites. No info there then. Will the FTO tell them? Fat chance. The airline? Nope. In fact, the first time they're likely to understand what they're doing is now. Right now. Now the ****'s hit the fan. As far as they're concerned, until they start working for the airline, this might be the way it's been done since the beginning...
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My point is - how do these guys know they are degrading the T + Cs of the industry if nobody's told them what they're doing isn't normal? So they don't read any online professional flying websites. No info there then. Will the FTO tell them? Fat chance. The airline? Nope. In fact, the first time they're likely to understand what they're doing is now. Right now. Now the ****'s hit the fan. As far as they're concerned, until they start working for the airline, this might be the way it's been done since the beginning...
Typical Generation Y, the quickest way to the controls of a jet - regardless of costs and who they step on, on the way!!
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Hi everybody,
I just passed the selection for ctc wings and i was planning to start my course in august...
From what I'm reading here today,it doesn't seem to be a good idea...
But,I would like to know a thing:
In the end of the course i'm not forced to sign this contract with ezy...
So...what other options do I have?Can someone give me some advices?
Regards
lele
I just passed the selection for ctc wings and i was planning to start my course in august...
From what I'm reading here today,it doesn't seem to be a good idea...
But,I would like to know a thing:
In the end of the course i'm not forced to sign this contract with ezy...
So...what other options do I have?Can someone give me some advices?
Regards
lele
