MCC at Oxford OR at European Skybus

[Johan_888]

Hi.

I am thinking of doing my MCC course at Oxford or European Skybus Limited in a 737 full motion for around 1995 £ only. I wonder if you have anything to say about these two schools ? Positiv or negativ ? We are now at the moment thinking of European Skybus Limited.

I am greatful for all answer“s about this.

Thank you

Best Regard Johan

[TheBeak]

The cheapest one - European skybus. Why? The MCC is a given, it's something you do, not pass or fail. You pay massively over the odds to go to Oxford and their MCC sim is a pile of despite what the dreamers might say. It's very much a pretend. Plus it would be nice to put money in the direction of a company that probably needs it right now. Finally European have some different simulators whcih will probably be the only time you get to fly something like that - One Eleven, 747 Classic, 727 and 737-200 - Sweet.

[EI-CON]

Can I suggest going a little further west and doing it with Simtech in Dublin. As TheBeak says doing it on something classic is great fun. Simtech have a 737-200 and if you can fly that you can fly and glass cockpit airplane.

Ive heard bad things about the Oxford MCC. I have heard you do a lot of line flying and a lot with the autopilot on. Thats all fine but why pay to watch the autopilot flying the plane? Also in an airline interview sim check they want to see you can fly so its all manuel flying. In Simtech you will be constantly shooting approaches, doing single engine stuff etc all manuel flying in an old classic. A work out but great fun!

[BillieBob]

In Simtech you will be constantly shooting approaches, doing single engine stuff etc all manuel flying in an old classic.

Which proves nothing other than the fact that Simtech have completely misunderstood the point of the MCC course.

[EI-CON]

BillieBob,

Simtech know a lot about MCC! Of course your working as a crew. Doing stuff like engine failures, single engine approaches, single engine go arounds need good crew co-operation.

My point is in Simtech's MCC you manuelly fly the Sim for 28 hours. Why waste your money watching the auto pilot fly it? And of course you operate as a crew and are thought very well. I dont think two guys(or gals) straight out of school who havent flown anything bigger than a Seminole or Seneca would be able to manage a 737-200 if they werent working as a crew.

Simtech's instructors are all current airline pilots flying for Aer Lingus, Ryanair, BA, Virgin Atlantic to name a few. One Aer Lingus guy is ex Emirates(330,340 & 777) so I think they know a bit about MCC.

[EGTCtraining]

MCC

I second the post above.

The MCC course is all about converting your single pilot flying capabilities (heavily practiced and demonstrated during the CPL and IR) into multi pilot capabilities.

By (to use the Americanism) ‘shooting approaches’, you really don’t achieve the point of the MCC course. I work for a company that delivers MCC training and we base our entire course around the multi-crew environment. Working as a team in airline conditions, using SOPs, interacting with all those involved in a flight from ground staff, to cabin crew whilst dealing with real life routes, and situations on route.

During MCC training the auto-pilot is a fantastic tool; it allows time for crew interaction, planning, PF and PNF communications, systems monitoring and makes the whole experience actually ‘more real’. However what we tend to do, during some of the later simulator sessions is include auto-pilot failures and allow the students to fly the occasional precision and non-precision approach. The first simulator session actually includes general handing too, in order to aid familiarization with the aircraft.

The JOC/JOT is really where full jet handling and hand-flying really takes president over multi-crew operations; it’s not really primary during the MCC.

Although I work for an MCC provide in Cranfield and we pride ourselves on a great course. I have experience of Oxford’s simulator training and from my experience, although vastly more expensive than most, the quality of teaching is more than adequate with some fantastic instructors.

As long as the course is accredited, you’re being delivered a great ‘MCC’ course and the reputation is good – right now I’d base my choice on price!!!

[Mr_ATPL]

It all depends.

Hi Johan, I think it all depends on where you want to go after the MCC course. Pending on which airline you will apply for - I would choose the MCC accordingly.

There are so many options out there, all starting from around £1800-2000 and up. These schools are all approved and will all get you the same entry in your license, an MCC "stamp". However some of these schools have good connections with the airlines, which might be something to consider....

Take care,

[aslan1982]

i did my mcc recently at oxford.

the instrucors are really top class. best kind of instructors I have come across yet.

Also at the moment its alot cheaper but just to let you know, one of their sim's fell of its legs and now is non motion.

they try to put you on as much motion as possible.

but that might help you make your mind up. but they are extremely professional.

As for the hand flying part. Two sims are fully hand flown. the other three are meant to be like a real flight where you put to autopilot on after flaps up and trust me you will be glad its on cuz alot of stuff happens and you will forget to do alot like talk to the passengers on route.

one failure is a hydraulic system failure which knocks out the autopilot anyway.

If i were to do a mcc course again I would go for Oxford

hope that helps

[wangus]

My MCC at European was a waste of time. Partner spoke virtually no english. He didn't learn any of the call out / checks. It was single pilot IFR when I was blasting through 800' in the 737-200. No DME calls, no approaching waypoint reminders. 80 knots? What's that??? Positive rate???? Who is he???YES, I got loads of hands-on time, single engine ILS, etc. which was fabulous, but as far as the actual "MCC" aspect, utter waste of time. Just ticking another both for the "Camapign Against Aviation."

[EI-CON]

aslan1982,

I dont really see how talking to passengers has anything to do with an MCC. This shows my point about the Oxford MCC sure it might be cool to do all that stuff but you wont be doing that in an airline sim check and you learn all that stuff during your type rating.

Im Simtech we done one line flight Dublin to Manchester, failed ILS with a go around, back around for a VOR with another go around, then divert to Liverpool and smoke in the cockpit on the way(simulated). We hand flew all this and let me tell you this is very busy and if your not working as a crew this flight in particular will go pear shaped!

Im not trying to push Simtech but I think you should look at the content of the course. In my opinion hand flying is what I would choose after all your paying for it so you might aswell fly it instead of talking into a microphone pretenting to talk to passengers

[aslan1982]

its multicrew and they(pax) are part of it. So when u have an emergency you need to speak to them to let them know whats going on and whats the plan. we had a explosion in the toilet with a few people getting injured. we had to reassure the passengers that everything was been looked after ie emergency services on the ground etc..
I think multicrew is more than just the two in the front.

Also the one non flying does all the radio calls and talks to cabin crew etc...

[EI-CON]

yes I agree and we also talked to the cabin crew etc during an emergency but your post suggests you did it the whole time and also they do the normal pax brief in the Oxford MCC video on youtube too. And why do you need the autopilot on to talk to the pax? Isnt that what the PNF is for?

Anyways talking to the pax or not isnt why I wouldnt choose Oxford its the use of the autopilot. Its just I know from experience you dont use the autopilot in a sim check they assess you on how you fly the plane which you get good at by flying it hands on.

[aslan1982]

i agree with you on the point that hand flying gets your prepared for the sim check but what I think the MCC is about is getting you out of the single pilot flying state of mind into the multi crew environment with the guy beside you, the crew and pax rather than preparing you for a sim check. The JOC more or less does that for you

Oxford is the the only experience I can talk about but we did plenty of hand flying. Two of the five days are handflying. The other three we used the LNAV and Level change modes of the autopilot but we still flew part of the sid's and stars.

In our course the pilot flying did the pax announcements. I found getting to use the fmc and the autopilot one of the more interesting aspects of the course. Buts that my opinion.

Just to let you know im booking some sim time with simtech as week speak.

[EI-CON]

Aslan1982 I understand what your saying there is pros and cons too both. Lots of guys from Oxford pass simchecks too.

As you said, I can only speak about where I went and I really enjoyed the way Simtech do things and would rcommend them. But again just my two cents

[ford cortina]

Having no knowledge of either training establishment, therefore I can offer a unbiased view.
I am a line pilot, flying 737 NG and Classics. We have a large mix of pilots from several different countries and continents. We have to work together as a team and that means CRM is the most important part of my job. I can hand fly a 737 with or without flight directors on, because I have experience of the aircraft.

A Multi Crew Cooperation course is just that, it is about working as a team, there is absolutely no bearing on flying a aircraft. It is very nice to play with a sim, I know, it also helps with getting to grips with jet aircraft. But you are not there to learn how to fly a jet aircraft you are there to work together and gain some understanding of the term Multi Pilot Crew.

If you want to pass a sim check, go and spend some money a few days before on a sim, not weeks and months, again I have been there.
When you have a holiday, it can take you a short while to get back into the swing of things and we are line pilots. When you go for your first sim, you will no be expected to know how to fly a jet aircraft. you will however be expected to improve your performance as the sim goes on. If you want to learn how to fly a jet, albeit one type, then do a JOC. You will need to do it very close to your sim check for it to be any use though.

In practice you will find that the Pilot Flying will make PA's. Unless there is a problem, then the Captain does.
Learning LNAV/ VNAV and FMC's are all well, but again you don't need to know it at this stage, you will learn how to use it later. BTW it's easy.

I feel that the industry has decided to make more money than then to teach people how to deal with situations.

But no one will listen, because they know better and I am just blah blah blah blah

[moggiee]

Originally Posted by ford cortina

A Multi Crew Cooperation course is just that, it is about working as a team, there is absolutely no bearing on flying a aircraft. It is very nice to play with a sim, I know, it also helps with getting to grips with jet aircraft. But you are not there to learn how to fly a jet aircraft you are there to work together and gain some understanding of the term Multi Pilot Crew.

Indeed - it's not about the sim or hand flying, it's all about those non-technical skills. Doing a good course matters a lot more than doing one on an expensive sim.

There are plenty of us offering MCC courses at much cheaper prices than the jet sim based providers mentioned previously. By spending less (we charge £1500) you will have some money left over to buy an hour or two of hands on training in a 737 sim before that all important job selection sim check.

[Leezyjet]

I did my MCC at European and to be honest, I didn't know what to expect as unlike the rest of the training, there is no real set syllabus of what is mandatory to be taught on an MCC course, so each supplier is basically able to teach what they like.

European had recently re-written the 2 days of ground school prior to the sim, and I personally found this part very disappointing as there was very little theory, just some team exercises and a couple of videos along with a lot of chit chat and flying the "cardboard bomber". As I said though, I didn't know what to expect, and maybe I expected too much from this part.

The sim sessions however were excellent. We were started off with very basic things, like just going through the check-lists, who did what etc, and each session we added more things until in the final session, we flew a whole route with emergencies and diversions - the whole lot. Each session is split, so you get 2 hours as PF and 2 hours as PNF doing the same exercise in both roles. I swear that sim is also a time machine !!. 4 hours has never gone so fast before or since !!.

The 737-200 that they use is basic by modern standards, and it has a very basic autopilot. There is no complicated FMC to get used to, or Lnav or Vnav either so it is a good introduction to a jet, without being too much of a jump from a light twin on the systems side that can end up bogging you down and distract from the purpose of the course.

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed the course and would recommend it.

[BillieBob]

there is no real set syllabus of what is mandatory to be taught on an MCC course, so each supplier is basically able to teach what they like.

Not true. The minimum requirements for both theoretical knowledge and flight exercises are laid out in AMC FCL 1.261(d) and the content of each course is approved by the CAA.

European had recently re-written the 2 days of ground school prior to the sim

Must have been interesting doing 25 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction in 2 days!

[Leezyjet]

The minimum requirements for both theoretical knowledge and flight exercises are laid out in AMC FCL 1.261(d) and the content of each course is approved by the CAA.

Cheers for that, couldn't find anything before I went on the course. However reading through that list, we hardly covered any of it, although I have just dug out the books we were given, and most of the stuff is actually in there but we never actually covered it in the course which is why I said I was disappointed with that part.

Must have been interesting doing 25 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction in 2 days!

Must have been 3 then - it was a while ago, but what we actually did that wasn't listening to the instructors "war stories" could have probably been done in 1.

[moo747]

Surely that is not the fault of European, you were just unlucky with the pilot paired with you. The thing you must remember is that whatever airline you get to work with the person sat next to you may not speak "perfect" english!