Hours building - Structured or Non-structured?

[The_green_penguin]

Hello folks,
I have been following these boards for some weeks with interest, however, this is my first posting (so apolgies for any naivety). I would like a little advice regarding the next step in my long quest of commercial pilot training (modular!).

I passed my PPL skills test and RT license shortly before Christmas and have since been doing a lot of research into the company with which to commence studying for the ATPL ground theory. I have decided to go with Bristol. I hope to start out on this (daunting!) task in the next few weeks.

My question is concerned with hours building. I have the typical 50 hours in my log book and have recently completed the conversion on to the Piper Archer. I obviously need to build up another 100 hours (including night rating) before I can commence training for my CPL. [I work full time in a completely non-aviation related field, and plan to fly as and when I can afford to do so – with minimal debt].

The flying school I am interested in going with offers 'structured' and 'non-structred' hours building. By structured, I take it to mean – you have a fair amount of input by the flight instructors with the aim of improving your VFR flying and avoiding getting into bad habits, whereas non-structured is basically self-hiring the aircraft and just flying around as an when the weather permits?? Obviously structured comes at a cost, and as far as I can see wil cost me approx an extra £1,500.

My question is what are peoples' feelings as to whether it is worth the money at this stage of my training? Is it better to have the input of the FI’s (albeit fairly infrequently) right from the outset or is it ok to just fly myself - and occaisionally friends - trying to develop my skills and stay current?

Many thanks in advance for any helpful advice.

PS Apologies for the wordiness of this - I got carried away!

[moona]

Be interested to know exactly what 'structure' gets added to your hours building for £1500. Do they provide recommended routes and the odd check flight?

I would be tempted to save the money (may put to wards an imc) and have a look at the requirements for the CPL xc time etc and structure your own hour building. Maybe do the odd hour with an instructor to make sure no bad habits are creeping in.

p.s enjoy your hour building, its a great opportunity to go and see places. Your not likely to be in a position to have 100 odd hours to burn again. I wish I had made more of mine.

[wheelbrace]

PIC time - some points to note...

PICUS/P1.S can only be credited with you as PIC on a test with a CAA examiner, eg CPL skills test, LPC etc. Do not take the say so of the simian lifting your money that you can credit that flight as PIC time but naming the passenger as captain. You are not PIC and Bubbles will deny having had the conversation with you when the poor saps at the CAA try to unwind the hash at reckoning time.

Only do this 'structured' time if you are guaranteed - and check the instructor's logbook to confirm - that you have been credited as PIC and captain on these flights.

I would recommend you do not fly with your instructor if you want PIC time. Do not take any preflight planning help - PIC does all this; you are not PIC if he/she offers ANY input to the flight. You may think it sensible to extract as much from your 'passenger' but the CAA say nay.

You will have plenty of time to develop dual time on CPL, ME and IR courses later.

In the meantime, enjoy it.

Patrick

[Leezyjet]

Save the cash and use if for something more interesting.

I managed my own hours building, going where I wanted and when. I did try and add some sort of structure to it towards the end by flying a bit more accurately, but for the most I just flew to enjoy the flying. I flew overseas in several countries whilst on holiday, and went all over the UK to various places to try and get as much experience of different things as I could.

You have plenty of time on the CPL course to do what you need to do, so just enjoy your hours building and make the most of being able to pop out for a £100 hamburger !!.

[Parson]

Get a breakdown of exactly what you are getting - an additional £1500 sounds a heck of a lot.

Either way, make sure you spend some time in the area where you will do your CPL training. Get to know the local area, landmarks, local ATC procedures etc. You'll be well ahead off the game when you start your xc. Get up to Brecon, over to Kemble, Newbury and down to Yeovil, Dunkeswell.

[8QQHC]

The_green_penguin,

I'd have to agree with the replies so far.

I know people who fly just for fun. When I start my hour building I intend to do what they do and make the most of it by going to as many places around the UK and abroad as possible. Ill do the structured stuff on the CPL course.

Good luck and enjoy.

[The_green_penguin]

Many thanks for the helfpul responses so far. According to the FTO's website, structured hours building with an instructor includes the following (and, as previosuly stated costs an extra £1500, for the 100 hours that I need): -

- Captaincy
- Accuracy
- Flight by sole reference to instruments
- Time management
- Pre-flight planning
- Navigation
- General handling
- VOR and ADF tracking
- Captain and passenger briefing
- Fuel management
- Standardisation

"We believe that upon completion of the course the candidate will be in a much more advantageous position to be able to complete a Commercial Pilot Licence course in minimum time and achieve a first time pass."

[shaun ryder]

Yeah right..

Aren't they meant to teach you those things during your PPL course?

I was an instructor once upon a time and you didn't pass your skill test until you could demonstrate proficiency in all of those areas.

Get out there on your own and go and expand on what you have already learnt. Do not follow a line on the GPS, dead reckon. Read up on the methods of radio navigation, buy a book called VOR/ADF & RMI by Martin Cass. Buy a VORTRAC stick it on your chart and practice position fixing etc. This will help build up your spare capacity. Forget the Archer, fly something cheap, they are all the same at the end of the day, you have 50hrs remember, dont be a hero.

Get used to doing the performance calculations for every flight, this will make you familiar with the techniques you need to use during your CPL training. Get familiar with planning and and providing accurate ETA's. This list goes on, unless you are under confident forget this structured rip off. Thats all it is.

[Sciolistes]

PICUS/P1.S can only be credited with you as PIC on a test with a CAA examiner, eg CPL skills test, LPC etc.

Sorry, a touch OT: I'm always been slightly curious over this one. The guideline is that when flying with an examiner for the purpose of license reval/renew/issue then you should log the flight as PICUS. This is according to the UK CAA (ref LASORS).

I have been unable to find anything written elsewhere that forbids the use of PICUS under other single pilot circumstances. I've certainly used it for checkouts for which there is no UK CAA recognition and therefore no recognised instruction. Although there is a vague requirement in the ANO for an instructor to log their time as PIC when they act as instructor. The PICUS thing fits these circumstances quite nicely.

[wheelbrace]

PICUS

Sciolistes - I urge you to speak with the FCL division at the CAA - believe me, I went through this mill. They do not accept hours recorded as PICUS to be PIC unless with a CAA examiner doing a LPC, Skills test or rating renewal - and you PASS in full, not partial.

A school rep. doing a local (ie for their purposes) checkflight is to be logged as P/UT.

PICUS/P1.S conditions are listed in the table in LASORS (2008), section A, Appendix B, cases B and J; J is the one that applies to single pilot operation. Do NOT listen to the school - they are unwittingly (?) wrong and it will ultimately come and bite YOUR wallet when the final reckoning happens. I had to recover 15 hours. (c. £3000)

As an aside, 'safety pilots' are viewed with great suspicion by the UK CAA. The chances are that, despite your taking what you might think is the prudent approach to initial exposure to foreign airspace, they will assume your safety pilot to be PIC. I fell foul of local regulations not allowing foreign language speakers and solo flight in US airspace before the issue of a temporary airman's certificate.

Patrick.

[redsnail]

The Green Penguin,

Personally, that sounds like "padding" to me to get extra money out of you.

Captaincy? WTF, airmanship more like.
Can you make a decision based on the wx, notams and destination?
Taxi with care to your own aircraft and other people/buildings/aircraft around you. (eg, not blowing dust, or snow into the hangar etc)
Have you allowed enough time for the flight to be completed before darkness &/or bad wx sets in?
Do you need prior permission to fly to your destination etc.
Insurance, maintenance release, multiple MEL items (maybe the Cherokee won't have that issue). If the transponder is U/S can I go? etc.


Accuracy. Err. Draw a line. Measure it. Fly it. Avoid Danger/Restricted areas and controlled airspace. Use appropriate visual and nav aids to avoid the above. Is just brushing past the London control area by a whisker smart versus picking a slightly different track and passing it with ease.

Flight by sole reference to instruments? Are you instrument rated or not? If not, you should not do that. If it is instruction for an IMC rating, do you need it if you are intending to fly commercially. Now, use of navaids as an aid to SA whilst operating in VMC is fine. (see above)

General handling. Yup, that'll be that straight and level thing won't it? Read your aircraft POM so you are using the right power settings and think about engine handling.
Note, if you're a bit nervy about xw landings, pick a day with some real fun xw and grab an instructor and circuit bash. Well worth it and great for your confidence.

Captain and pax briefing. If you're single pilot, who are you going to talk to? Ok, being facetious there. Have a plan. Think it through about the take off (if I don't make power/speed by X I will abort, if I have an engine failure at X I will do Y). Look for landing areas in flight, (if engine quits here, I will do X) Pax briefing, don't use scary words like turbulence or engine failure. Pax freak out. Revise what needs to be said. Seat belts, doors, mobile phones etc. If a problem arises, what will you say to them. (We use NITS as a mnemonic)
Many people think that a long winded "brief" (clue's in the name) is what the "big boys do". We don't. We mention the bits that are relevant. Long winded stuff (kind of like this post... sorry) is boring and you forget it.

Fuel management. That should have been taught to you. It's easy on big(ger) aircraft, fuel totalisers, FMSs... Ahhh nice. Keep a plot going, or a "howgozit". The aircraft burns X per hour. If you've been flying for 30 min, what's left? If below what you expect, why? What's changed? Wind? G/S or power setting? If all ok, is there a leak? What will you do to trouble shoot it? (or find a suitable place to land)
Believe me, it ain't rocket science.

Standardisation. Are they offering you a job? Is this a line check? No, you don't need it.
Just continue to build on your PPL stuff. You've got 30 years of standardisations to go through (and each aeroplane and company is different. Heck, we get new SOPs every 6 months.. Standardisation? No, rip off in this case)

There you go, just saved you £1500.

Ok, it's a bit tongue in cheek but you can do this yourself.
Be disciplined. Attempt "harder" flights. That is, set yourself goals WRT navigation and terrain etc. Build your experience up so you become more confident. Accept that some days you'll have to turn back. That is the most valuable lesson of them all. Some days you'll just have to say no.

The idea of building hours is to gain experience. Learn about this flying game, build confidence. Being "monitored" whilst doing this defeats the purpose. You'll get the edges polished during the IR and CPL.

Have fun.

[DarkSoldier]

Wouldn't bother with this structured thing. As others have said you should know most of these 'extras' from your PPL. I'd recommend doing it the un-structured way and then once or twice a year have a flight with an instructor to iron out any bad habits you may have picked up...

[B2N2]

Agree with most of the above.
Save the 1500 to do some timebuilding overseas if you have the chance.
South Africa or the USA.
The cost of the ticket will be more then made up by the reduction in aircraft rental cost.

[Parson]

Most people at Bristol go thru the CPL at or close to, min hours particularly those who have done the IR first. £1500 is a bit too steep (that's about half the course cost if you've got an IR).

[easydebt]

Structured hours building?

For what it's worth and based on my own experience, self-improver unstructured hours builder and ME/IR instructor 3000 hours:

IF you know yourself to be abnormally disciplined in your approach to training and you feel you have all the insight needed in to what the CPL requires (not just familiar with Standards Document 3, although it's a good start), then yes you could be one of the few ones I see that will sail through the CPL in minimum hours and first time pass.

But it is more likely - and I don't know the variables such as your age, currently employed? free time? etc - that someone who has done unstructured hours building will have allowed their core skills to at best stagnate, in some cases we find they have fallen to below those that they evidently must have displayed for their PPL test. It's human nature as much as anything! Ask yourself why it is that many employers prefer the Integrated route in any event and then ask yourself if you should allow a possibly negative issue to come up in your job interview i.e. doing your own thing, esp if allied to less than first-time passes. Now if you're up for one of those jobs where the boss is one of those very individual characters who likes similarly-minded employees, then fine.

We run a Structured Hours Building Programme in our Modular training, which includes 19 hours of DUAL flight logged as P/uT. The view is that the student cannot be expected to practise solo to a standard, especially towards the end of this phase, that's pretty close to CPL standard, if he/she is not monitored for maintaining and then improving standards. Remember the CPL course is really quite a tightly-packed one, especially when, as is now the norm, it includes the MEP training and test on the twin. In reality in the 28 hour course, the student has only 20 hours to reach a test standard, with the 8 (and often more) needed to convert on to a new type and class and not lose the test skill standard just reached.

So like others I don't know what this £1500 includes exactly but put it in to the perspective above and I can tell you that unstructured hours builders, especially the more 'mature' ones, generally take 5-10 hours more on their CPL. How much will that cost? NB generally not always.

PS/ As our SHB programme is recognised by the CAA, then the progress checks flown dual ARE counted as P1/S towards the solo total, providing the instructor grades the flight satisfactory and countersigns the log book. This P1/S time usually 8 hours can be counted along with the successful passing of the PPL, CPL and IR tests. Is this the case where you are looking?

Just some thoughts, no doubt they will get rubbished.