Oxford Aviation Academy/ATPL training questions (Oxford Prefered)
Going back to the original post. As a recent (sept 08) OAA integrated graduate my advise on "how to get through it" would be to allow yourself to believe that you will graduate with 95% JAA average, a first time IR and an excellent final report and that based on that you will be interviewed by an Airline a month after graduating and start a TR the following month. ALL COMPLETE FICTION but a great motivational tool to help you do well on the course and if you're prepared to spend that sort of cash getting your ME-CPL-IR & MCC then make sure you work bl**dy hard or you'll be wasting your cash (that's if it is your cash).
Where did my £60K get me?...
...Since graduating I now work 3 days a week teaching PPL earning peanuts, so with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I would have been better off saving thousands and going modular. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging instructing off, it's a great job just not paid very well and it has given me the chance to really learn how to fly (and not just how to pass a ME-IR on minimal hrs) and build up my airmanship, there are just much cheaper ways of become a PPL FI.
Maybe my Oxford training and qualifications will be used if I land some sort of multi crew commercial flying, so I can't yet say it has been a waste of time and money.
In summary, go into it eyes wide open. If you have the cash and 18 months spare time then it's a free world, go for it. At the end of the day these types of schools are large money making machines, trading off the promise of instant results. Right now and maybe for a while yet those "instant results" cost an additional £30K and buy you a TR and a self employed contract!!
For the skint, cautious or over 30's this instant result just isn't an option (NB: I'm all of the above).
p.s. don't stick any of the above in your bank loan application, it might get turned down, tee-hee
Where did my £60K get me?...
...Since graduating I now work 3 days a week teaching PPL earning peanuts, so with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight I would have been better off saving thousands and going modular. Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging instructing off, it's a great job just not paid very well and it has given me the chance to really learn how to fly (and not just how to pass a ME-IR on minimal hrs) and build up my airmanship, there are just much cheaper ways of become a PPL FI.
Maybe my Oxford training and qualifications will be used if I land some sort of multi crew commercial flying, so I can't yet say it has been a waste of time and money.
In summary, go into it eyes wide open. If you have the cash and 18 months spare time then it's a free world, go for it. At the end of the day these types of schools are large money making machines, trading off the promise of instant results. Right now and maybe for a while yet those "instant results" cost an additional £30K and buy you a TR and a self employed contract!!
For the skint, cautious or over 30's this instant result just isn't an option (NB: I'm all of the above).p.s. don't stick any of the above in your bank loan application, it might get turned down, tee-hee
BTW, forgot to mention, we did do a few DME arcs with our instructor in the USA but they are not on the syllabus, he just got bored doing NDB and ILS and there happened to be a few published arcs in the training area. It's just luck of the draw which instructor you get as to whether you do them, I'm sure if you are on top of the NDB and ILS stuff and ask nicely then you'll get the chance to fly a few.
Also did them on the JOT in the 737 sim but we did twiddle the MCP knobs in CMD B to fly the arc so I guess that doesn't count (at least I'm honest!)
Also did them on the JOT in the 737 sim but we did twiddle the MCP knobs in CMD B to fly the arc so I guess that doesn't count
(at least I'm honest!)
Last edited by james1013; 16th Dec 2009 at 16:46.
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I was shown how to fly Arc's but it was over in the states during the single engine phase and only because we had some time spare - I don't recall it being on the syllabus.
Certainly another shortcoming.
I was recently able to manually do a raw data teardrop hold entry at the last minute when ATC changed their minds - the crowd gasps at his masterful control of the aircraft - as the excel FMS is pretty weak if you are too close a fix. 
As for trying to manually do an arc, I think it would be messy at best.
Certainly another shortcoming.
I was recently able to manually do a raw data teardrop hold entry at the last minute when ATC changed their minds -
the crowd gasps at his masterful control of the aircraft - as the excel FMS is pretty weak if you are too close a fix. As for trying to manually do an arc, I think it would be messy at best.
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RE: DME arcs, Not trying to justify it or not, but I was told that it is never, ever examinable for your MEP or IR and therefore does not feature on the syllabus. That said, I learnt arcing both in the US and also in the UK both on the MEP sims and also the MCC. As others have said, it's purely luck of the draw as to whether your instructor teaches you them or not.
Also agree with HollingworthP ... the rule that stops you learning xwind technique is ludicrous! I remember being stopped flying because a 10kt xwind was forecast....no-one could give a reason why when I mentioned that 10kts was about the minimum you'd ever get in the UK
Also agree with HollingworthP ... the rule that stops you learning xwind technique is ludicrous! I remember being stopped flying because a 10kt xwind was forecast....no-one could give a reason why when I mentioned that 10kts was about the minimum you'd ever get in the UK
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Having landed a Seneca in a 30-kt crosswind, gusting 40, that is ludicrous! It is a far better crosswind aircraft than the demonstrated component suggests, although you have to be careful in a two-blader.
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Well it bloody well should be part of the syllabus I have done orders of magnitude more DME arcs than sodding holds. And I have to ask for NDB approach just to keep my hand in a couple of times a month while doing line flights. I think I am the only pilot to ask for one every sim session.
That is actually really shocking that your not taught them as part of the syllabus. They are the main stay of procedural airports for direct arrivals.
I really am shocked that if a OAA cadet knows anything about them it's more out of luck than anything else. So not only do you pay through the nose but you don't even get taught the full toolbox of IR procedures.
I am utterly gob smacked.
That is actually really shocking that your not taught them as part of the syllabus. They are the main stay of procedural airports for direct arrivals.
I really am shocked that if a OAA cadet knows anything about them it's more out of luck than anything else. So not only do you pay through the nose but you don't even get taught the full toolbox of IR procedures.
I am utterly gob smacked.
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I am utterly gob smacked.
PS - I think it is a throwback to the Airline focus that OAA have, assuming all graduates end up in an FMS-enabled aircraft that can handle all the complicated stuff for us.
Not saying that I agree with it. But I can see why you may/have had problems with OAA grads getting down and dirty with a 'proper' aircraft and some real flying.
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I am actually.
A DME arc is a core skill of an IR pilot.
They can be a pig I must admit especially with multiple step downs. And there is plenty of scope for making a complete balls of it and I have done so in the past.
There are plenty of FMC's that can't handle circular nav. I know you can fudge it by creating points every 10deg around the arc. But even so you should at least be able to fly one on automatics in heading mode and not fly everywhere on LNav.
A DME arc is a core skill of an IR pilot.
They can be a pig I must admit especially with multiple step downs. And there is plenty of scope for making a complete balls of it and I have done so in the past.
There are plenty of FMC's that can't handle circular nav. I know you can fudge it by creating points every 10deg around the arc. But even so you should at least be able to fly one on automatics in heading mode and not fly everywhere on LNav.
Doesn't some blame belong to CAA/JAA if arcs not taught and tested? Surely it's the authorities who specify the bare minimum hrs and skills required for licence issue from an integrated course? Without opening JAR-FCL it may of course state that any type of instrument approach could be tested but common practice may make it a rarity, perhaps? i.e. if it's in an AERAD then examiner could pick it. So "not on the syllabus" isn't an absolute statement just a reflection of what goes on.
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I was taught them on my crappy modular course, an hour in the sim and one two engine and one single engine in the aircraft.
And I know they teach them at Exeter because that FO was bloody good at it with 250 hours total and 40 hours on type.
And I know they teach them at Exeter because that FO was bloody good at it with 250 hours total and 40 hours on type.
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To all you Wannabees out there, FlyGlobespan, just went under..... 10 aircraft on the ground, maybe 80 or 100 Pilots out there, so 50 more FO's who have experience on the job market....
Ryanair may at the moment be hovering up Wannabees who can get £20 to £30K together, BUT for how long....
Not that any one will listen to this....
I would really hold off spending Life changing sums of money right now, it is a huge gamble.
Ryanair may at the moment be hovering up Wannabees who can get £20 to £30K together, BUT for how long....
Not that any one will listen to this....
I would really hold off spending Life changing sums of money right now, it is a huge gamble.
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mad_jock, I am really surprised that you've found OAA guys whom doesn't know how to fly a DME arc. I remember doing mine on the BHX ILS15 procedure, not only did I do it but my other 2 flying partners were fortunate enough to get our moneys worth and experience drawing an arc on the screen.
As for the comparison with CTC and OAA cadets. I know you're going off from what you saw but then you also suggested the person who started this thread to go for CTC or modular just from what you saw. A sound advice?
I might be a little biased but I just think OAA grads have a reputation for being "young and think they know it all" pilots and I hope to change that opinion.
As for the comparison with CTC and OAA cadets. I know you're going off from what you saw but then you also suggested the person who started this thread to go for CTC or modular just from what you saw. A sound advice?
I might be a little biased but I just think OAA grads have a reputation for being "young and think they know it all" pilots and I hope to change that opinion.
Doesn't some blame belong to CAA/JAA if arcs not taught and tested?
It is a pretty damning indictment of any professional flight training organisation that it should teach not those skills needed to be a commercial pilot but only the bare minimum required to pass the test. Back in my IR instructional days, we used to teach arcing on both the single and the twin - it was done manually and it certainly was in no way 'messy'!
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pilotho good for you you don't come across as your typical cadet.
And I really do mean enjoy yourself on your type rating. The first is always a bit of a ball ache because you never know what's expected and the procedures are all new.
Try and get your hands on the memory items before you get there and get them sunk in a wee bit.
And just remember as you walk out of the sim after your LST, the clock starts ticking down from 6 months when you have to do the whole thing again
. You get used to it but the first OPC is always a bit nerve wracking.
you don't come across as your typical cadet.And I really do mean enjoy yourself on your type rating. The first is always a bit of a ball ache because you never know what's expected and the procedures are all new.
Try and get your hands on the memory items before you get there and get them sunk in a wee bit.
And just remember as you walk out of the sim after your LST, the clock starts ticking down from 6 months when you have to do the whole thing again
. You get used to it but the first OPC is always a bit nerve wracking.
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As for the comparison with CTC and OAA cadets. I know you're going off from what you saw but then you also suggested the person who started this thread to go for CTC or modular just from what you saw. A sound advice?
CABUS
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Very valid points made and I hope the thread author is able to take some advice and opinions from this thread to help him with his decision.
mad_jock, thanks for the advice, the close it gets, the more nervous I become because like you said, I am not sure what to expect. Like everything though, I make a big deal about something beforehand and then it doesn't turn out to be that bad. Big jump from Seneca to 737 though. Learning the memory items should definetly be my priority for the first couple of weeks.
One last thing, what does LST stand for?
mad_jock, thanks for the advice, the close it gets, the more nervous I become because like you said, I am not sure what to expect. Like everything though, I make a big deal about something beforehand and then it doesn't turn out to be that bad. Big jump from Seneca to 737 though. Learning the memory items should definetly be my priority for the first couple of weeks.
One last thing, what does LST stand for?
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License Skills Test - its the one that the TRE signs to pass the sim part of the type rating. It also covers you for your first LPC and OPC.
Its slightly different from a LPC I think because you have to do a raw data ILS. In a normal LPC I think you can do it with the flight director in. I don't know the 737 at all so there might be other differences as well.
Main thing is don't worry about it by the time you get through all the sim training the LST is a walk in the park compared to all the other sessions, there will be nothing new. The first OPC is a bit strange because hopefully you haven't done any single engine work for the last six months. I have to keep repeating to myself "flap 9 gear up" for the go around where as for the twin engine go around its "flap 9" "positive climb" then call "gear up"
edited to add another top tip. Get yourself some ginger tablets and take a couple before your sim sessions. Most TRI/TRE's are pretty good about warning you before slewing the sim. Any hint that they are going to slew the sim eg "I will just position you back to a 8 mile final". Get your head down and your eyes shut. I have never felt air sick yet in an aircraft. But after one tosser driving the sim who kept on slewing it with no warning and a knackard aircon unit I barfed for Scotland.
Its slightly different from a LPC I think because you have to do a raw data ILS. In a normal LPC I think you can do it with the flight director in. I don't know the 737 at all so there might be other differences as well.
Main thing is don't worry about it by the time you get through all the sim training the LST is a walk in the park compared to all the other sessions, there will be nothing new. The first OPC is a bit strange because hopefully you haven't done any single engine work for the last six months. I have to keep repeating to myself "flap 9 gear up" for the go around where as for the twin engine go around its "flap 9" "positive climb" then call "gear up"
edited to add another top tip. Get yourself some ginger tablets and take a couple before your sim sessions. Most TRI/TRE's are pretty good about warning you before slewing the sim. Any hint that they are going to slew the sim eg "I will just position you back to a 8 mile final". Get your head down and your eyes shut. I have never felt air sick yet in an aircraft. But after one tosser driving the sim who kept on slewing it with no warning and a knackard aircon unit I barfed for Scotland.
Last edited by mad_jock; 17th Dec 2009 at 22:29.