Thinking of training in Florida?
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: The Burrow, N53:48:02 W1:48:57, The Tin Tent - EGBS, EGBO
I know it is a long time ago but just ask yourself why did the RAF choose Canada and South Africa to train some of their pilots in WW2? The USA shares a border with Canada. Makes me think "why?"
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Joined: Feb 1997
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From: Duit On Mon Dei
More likely because they were in the Commonwealth I'd have thought.
Canada and South Africa declared war at pretty much the same time as did the United Kingdom.
USA didn't enter until a few years later. Therefore there may have been a legal issue about training people for war in an "independent" state. (Maybe)
Canada and South Africa declared war at pretty much the same time as did the United Kingdom.
USA didn't enter until a few years later. Therefore there may have been a legal issue about training people for war in an "independent" state. (Maybe)
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: nl
Rob, whilst you are doubtless correct about the training records and the lack of a visa issue it would be slightly naive to rely on the UK legal system to guarantee protection.
Back in the 90s I and a number of other pilots were ripped off by a classic snakeoil salesman. The incident ended up in the national press, Flight International were slightly embarrassed as they were carrying his adverts, the police were actively involved and pursuing the gentleman in question with a view to a fraud prosecution. All seemed on track for a successful legal conclusion, faith restored in UK law etc. Unfortunately this did not come to pass as the person in question unfortunately (a cynic might say conveniently, I couldn't possibly comment) developed a dread disease which the police were lead to believe was going to be totally debilitating in very short order; unlikely as it may sound, the police showed some compassion and decided that further punishment was unnecessary and dropped the enquiry. Imagine my surprise when I find recently that said gentleman managed to continue his aviation "career" for a further 6 years, it would appear that conmen just keep on conning.
Unless you have the cash to pursue a private prosecution, which is unlikely if you have just paid for an ATPL, you will have to rely on the police and courts and unfortunately they can be conned as effectively as anyone else.
Caveat emptor and protect yourself at all times.
Back in the 90s I and a number of other pilots were ripped off by a classic snakeoil salesman. The incident ended up in the national press, Flight International were slightly embarrassed as they were carrying his adverts, the police were actively involved and pursuing the gentleman in question with a view to a fraud prosecution. All seemed on track for a successful legal conclusion, faith restored in UK law etc. Unfortunately this did not come to pass as the person in question unfortunately (a cynic might say conveniently, I couldn't possibly comment) developed a dread disease which the police were lead to believe was going to be totally debilitating in very short order; unlikely as it may sound, the police showed some compassion and decided that further punishment was unnecessary and dropped the enquiry. Imagine my surprise when I find recently that said gentleman managed to continue his aviation "career" for a further 6 years, it would appear that conmen just keep on conning.
Unless you have the cash to pursue a private prosecution, which is unlikely if you have just paid for an ATPL, you will have to rely on the police and courts and unfortunately they can be conned as effectively as anyone else.
Caveat emptor and protect yourself at all times.
Joined: Jan 1997
Posts: 7,736
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From: UK
Secoat, SFT and very recently again with PFT. Many, many others. The joys of limited company law.
All shut down but always remarkable how the senior figures reappear. The Green's, the Boltons and Fishers.
I really must remember one day to suggest people don't pay up front - I'd never thought of it before
Rob.
All shut down but always remarkable how the senior figures reappear. The Green's, the Boltons and Fishers.
I really must remember one day to suggest people don't pay up front - I'd never thought of it before
Rob.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 468
Likes: 3
From: London
Let's Clear Something Up
Ok - so technically and legally, we can persue a Floridian flight school should we find ourselves in a situation whereby we need to persue the matter in the courts.
The only thing, although there is nothing legally stopping us from doing so, taking a Floridan flight school is complicated and expensive, so much so that I am yet to find a single account of anyone bringing the matter to court, notwithstanding the fact whether they were successful or not?
Or am I over simplifying??
The only thing, although there is nothing legally stopping us from doing so, taking a Floridan flight school is complicated and expensive, so much so that I am yet to find a single account of anyone bringing the matter to court, notwithstanding the fact whether they were successful or not?
Or am I over simplifying??
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 92
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From: Shucky's back yard
Limited company law
Why are these characters allowed to continue peddling grubby mendacity? Most professional bodies have a code of ethics which disowns them even if they legally can continue in practice. Is there not such a body in aviation?
Personally, I would lay this responsibility at the feet of the regulator. Surely the UK CAA has a view on this? It would make their life so much simpler if they knew that all applicants for licensing had been to an approved institution which, to the best of their knowledge has individuals of probity and integrity.
One could argue that the government should have a role in this. On second thoughts, maybe not.
Personally, I would lay this responsibility at the feet of the regulator. Surely the UK CAA has a view on this? It would make their life so much simpler if they knew that all applicants for licensing had been to an approved institution which, to the best of their knowledge has individuals of probity and integrity.
One could argue that the government should have a role in this. On second thoughts, maybe not.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 92
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From: Shucky's back yard
Stephen Fisher
Anyone had dealings with this character? Is his track record indicative of standards in Florida?
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...approvals.html
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...approvals.html
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4
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From: Portugal
JAA CFI Training in Florida
Hi all! I'm from Portugal almost completing my ATPL (A) Frozen, and I'd like to get an Instructor's Rating soon after I'm licensed. Because of high prices and qualitatively speaking, CFI courses here are of a lesser kind, I've opted to try and join a CFI course in the States; preferably in Florida.
With my limited resources on the internet, I'd like your opinions on what a best option of a school would be. Basically what I'd need is a school that approves JAA CFI (A) training and of course accommodation nearby the targeted airfield
So far I've found an attractive looking Flight School named EASA (Euro American School of Aviation). Hopefully their A/C are in tip top shape!
Thanks in advance,
Miguel
With my limited resources on the internet, I'd like your opinions on what a best option of a school would be. Basically what I'd need is a school that approves JAA CFI (A) training and of course accommodation nearby the targeted airfield
So far I've found an attractive looking Flight School named EASA (Euro American School of Aviation). Hopefully their A/C are in tip top shape!
Thanks in advance,
Miguel
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: On the moon
Don't go to EASA wich is the old school named Ormond Beach Aviation in the past! The owner is Mr. Fisher, he is just a shark, he wants just your money, nobody finished the training on-time! tens of hours more to fly (and pay), I had as instructor the HOT of the school (the name is Bill) every day he said that I was not prepared to pass the test, I was scared about that also because during the extra training he said to me nothing, just "turn right hdg 230, turn left, make turns". The morning before the exam, he said that was impossible for me to pass it, I was tired about that school, did the test and passed with an examiner from arizona!
I was happy to get out from that hell!
Keep your eyes opened!
I was happy to get out from that hell!
Keep your eyes opened!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12
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From: Florida
Ok - so technically and legally, we can persue a Floridian flight school should we find ourselves in a situation whereby we need to persue the matter in the courts.
The only thing, although there is nothing legally stopping us from doing so, taking a Floridan flight school is complicated and expensive, so much so that I am yet to find a single account of anyone bringing the matter to court, notwithstanding the fact whether they were successful or not?
Or am I over simplifying??
The only thing, although there is nothing legally stopping us from doing so, taking a Floridan flight school is complicated and expensive, so much so that I am yet to find a single account of anyone bringing the matter to court, notwithstanding the fact whether they were successful or not?
Or am I over simplifying??
Foreign plaintiffs have the same rights but are at great disadvantage in suing domestic defendants. For lawsuit were the amount to be recovered is over $5.000, beside the cost of representation these suits can last years. A US defendant may purposely delay and slow down the legal process so to cause extra expenses on the foreign plaintiff.
On the other hand in Florida if the claim is for less than $5.000, a plaintiff can use the “Small Claim Court” system. It is much faster, simpler and no attorney are allowed. This system is rarely used by foreigner simply because when they feel wronged the first thing they do is contact an attorney. Attorneys are unlikely to recommend small claim since there is no money in it for them.
On the other hand in Florida if the claim is for less than $5.000, a plaintiff can use the “Small Claim Court” system. It is much faster, simpler and no attorney are allowed. This system is rarely used by foreigner simply because when they feel wronged the first thing they do is contact an attorney. Attorneys are unlikely to recommend small claim since there is no money in it for them.
Any courthouse will have the forms needed to file your small claim. I think the fee is $175.00
Here are the rules of procedure for Small Claim Court
http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBRes...df?openelement
Here are good information on the Small Claim process (info provided by the 8th Judicial Circuit Court)
Pro Se Small Claims Court
Here are the rules of procedure for Small Claim Court
http://www.floridabar.org/TFB/TFBRes...df?openelement
Here are good information on the Small Claim process (info provided by the 8th Judicial Circuit Court)
Pro Se Small Claims Court
The better business bureau should be a good start!
United States and Canada BBB Consumer and Business Reviews, Reports, Ratings, Complaints and Accredited Business Listings
Search the online archives of the local paper Florida Newspapers - Florida Newspaper List
Search the county clerk of court website (lawsuits, liens etc.) Clerks of Court
Search the Florida Division of Corporation website (find out who the officers / directors / agents of the schools are). www.sunbiz.org - Document Searches
Before filling a lawsuit, I would contact the Florida General Attorney's Office (Consumer Protection) Florida Attorney General - Consumer Protection and the local media (some have investigative reporters).
I would not file suit before having exausted all means to resolve the problem out of court.
Remember information is power!
Last edited by Florida Pilot; 12th March 2010 at 16:30.
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 468
Likes: 3
From: London
The police case against Fisher never materialised as he cancelled all visa's of the complainants (read ripped off students) and got them sent home before they could appear against him. The police never continued as they had no real witnesses.......a shame!! (taken from another PPruNe post).
Looks like it's not that easy afterall to take legal actions. These guys (apparent victims of a certain Florida based ex flight school owner) seemed to want to take action - but were sent home - most likely due to cancelled/expired visas. Yet I have seen no evidence of them persuing the individual from the UK.
Again - can anyone please give me examples of when you have brought action against a Florida based FTO - and what was the outcome?
Looks like it's not that easy afterall to take legal actions. These guys (apparent victims of a certain Florida based ex flight school owner) seemed to want to take action - but were sent home - most likely due to cancelled/expired visas. Yet I have seen no evidence of them persuing the individual from the UK.
Again - can anyone please give me examples of when you have brought action against a Florida based FTO - and what was the outcome?
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 64
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From: Exeter
Florida CPL Training
I am a UK PPL holder and have been re located to Miami Florida, whilst I am here doing my day job I want to build my hours and flying experience and go on to get my CPL and FI rating as upon my return to europe in a couple of years I want to go into teaching.
I have been here for 6 months, I signed up to one local school here and went for my first flight with them, only to find the aircraft was in an awful state and the throttle came off in my hand whilst climbing after take off. (This being only one of the problems)
After having paid the fees for the TSA finger printing etc and with the knowledge that I will have to pay the fees over again when I find a new school I am wanting any recommendations for schools in the south Florida area to do my CPL and eventually my FI.
Also I am trying to work out if it would actually be best to continue along the JAA route or go down the FAA route and convert at a later date.
Any advice gladly received.
I have been here for 6 months, I signed up to one local school here and went for my first flight with them, only to find the aircraft was in an awful state and the throttle came off in my hand whilst climbing after take off. (This being only one of the problems)
After having paid the fees for the TSA finger printing etc and with the knowledge that I will have to pay the fees over again when I find a new school I am wanting any recommendations for schools in the south Florida area to do my CPL and eventually my FI.
Also I am trying to work out if it would actually be best to continue along the JAA route or go down the FAA route and convert at a later date.
Any advice gladly received.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 340
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From: Saaaaaaffffhampton
Florida flight schools
I have experience of both UK and US.
I can say without any doubt that there is good and bad on both sides of the atlantic, I have had very poor cases of customer service in both.
The above mentioned SF was one of them and should he appear at any school in any form I would not hesitate to recommend students stay away.
I have had a poor experience in the UK also not to the same extent, however, I would say that most of my flying has been conducted very well and to a high standard here and in the US.
Having flown at 4 different schools their (US) the only one that was of the poor standard was run by SF (UK)
The dis-service is like most things to label everyone the same is as poor as the training that's being suggested, the valid points have all been stated, just keep them in mind.
In fact if anybody knows where Dan Collins is now from Huffman in Venice can they pass me the details, excellent pilot instructor!!
I can say without any doubt that there is good and bad on both sides of the atlantic, I have had very poor cases of customer service in both.
The above mentioned SF was one of them and should he appear at any school in any form I would not hesitate to recommend students stay away.
I have had a poor experience in the UK also not to the same extent, however, I would say that most of my flying has been conducted very well and to a high standard here and in the US.
Having flown at 4 different schools their (US) the only one that was of the poor standard was run by SF (UK)
The dis-service is like most things to label everyone the same is as poor as the training that's being suggested, the valid points have all been stated, just keep them in mind.
In fact if anybody knows where Dan Collins is now from Huffman in Venice can they pass me the details, excellent pilot instructor!!
Last edited by carbonfibre; 20th April 2010 at 18:00.
Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Above & Beyond
If its a JAA CPL you want then you will have to go to either Naples, Orlando flight training or Vero Beach.
As far as I know you cant do an FI rating out in the states but I may be wrong. I personally would go down the FAA route as its quicker and more realistic than what the JAA lot put you through. I converted my JAA ME CPL to an FAA stand alone CPL in 10 days. The IR can be done in 14 days and you can fly the same day you pass.
As far as I know you cant do an FI rating out in the states but I may be wrong. I personally would go down the FAA route as its quicker and more realistic than what the JAA lot put you through. I converted my JAA ME CPL to an FAA stand alone CPL in 10 days. The IR can be done in 14 days and you can fly the same day you pass.