Affording training /lower class.
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Why integrated? It doesn't do anything to help you get there faster.
In fact if money is tight it might shoot your dream down entirely, as you might be broke with no access to credit, so you won't be able to keep flying or do more courses. You will also be unsuited to many areas of aviation, as integrated courses are aimed very much at the right seat of an airliner, the dullest, most frustrating seat in aviation.
If you are that impatient and just want it for the image while you're young, then aviation really isn't the career for you. Yes if you had money to buy your way straight into the airlines you might get away with it, although I wouldn't want to employ you, but without it you will probably end up early on in a place that isn't glamorous and where you are the captain, not the FO, and a responsible attitude is literally all that stands between you and a smoking hole in the ground. In Whyjelly's "sh1tty jobs" he was probably responsible for everything he did much of the time with little supervision. In that he probably learnt a lot that probably makes him a good pilot now. If you don't have the patience to go through all that after working hard for years to train then I doubt you will make it to the shiny image anyway, you will become one of those that fall by the wayside.
I suggest you go back to get some decent A-levels, get a degree and go into the city or become a lawyer.
In fact if money is tight it might shoot your dream down entirely, as you might be broke with no access to credit, so you won't be able to keep flying or do more courses. You will also be unsuited to many areas of aviation, as integrated courses are aimed very much at the right seat of an airliner, the dullest, most frustrating seat in aviation.
If you are that impatient and just want it for the image while you're young, then aviation really isn't the career for you. Yes if you had money to buy your way straight into the airlines you might get away with it, although I wouldn't want to employ you, but without it you will probably end up early on in a place that isn't glamorous and where you are the captain, not the FO, and a responsible attitude is literally all that stands between you and a smoking hole in the ground. In Whyjelly's "sh1tty jobs" he was probably responsible for everything he did much of the time with little supervision. In that he probably learnt a lot that probably makes him a good pilot now. If you don't have the patience to go through all that after working hard for years to train then I doubt you will make it to the shiny image anyway, you will become one of those that fall by the wayside.
I suggest you go back to get some decent A-levels, get a degree and go into the city or become a lawyer.
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you mentioned at the start of this post that it will be virtually impossible to get the money for integrated course?
now you are saying you will try the integrated course?
i think you need to speak to a bank manager! access to those funds is nigh on impossible unless you have a house to secure it against with a parent as guarantors.
You will need a business plan detailing how you are going to pay it back and all of your outgoings etc. trust me, i know. your attitude about the repayments stinks to be frank. you cant expect to get a loan of that size and just not pay it back if you dont succeed. that sort of attitude amongst young people helped to cause the recession and its the reason why banks no longer lend large amounts of money unsecured.
I got accepted onto the CTC wings course but i couldnt afford to get the loan. I would never ask my mum to re mortgage the house as i didnt think it fair. Do you know how frustrating that is? - to know you have the potential to pass training but just cannot get access to the funds?! so, what did i do? i got over the disappointment and got on with life. i saved my money and made sacrifices (with a little help) and got my ppl. 1st hurdle reached. now im looking at saving again and moving on to my cpl WHILST enjoying the flying my new ppl has enabled me to do.
i have wanted to fly since i was 7. im now 25 and have my ppl. 18 years so far and im willing to be patient!
i also suggest you look at the entry requirements to every integrated course and make sure you fulfil them before you even consider applying.
I think you need to be a little more realistic and a little more patient.
now you are saying you will try the integrated course?
i think you need to speak to a bank manager! access to those funds is nigh on impossible unless you have a house to secure it against with a parent as guarantors.
You will need a business plan detailing how you are going to pay it back and all of your outgoings etc. trust me, i know. your attitude about the repayments stinks to be frank. you cant expect to get a loan of that size and just not pay it back if you dont succeed. that sort of attitude amongst young people helped to cause the recession and its the reason why banks no longer lend large amounts of money unsecured.
I got accepted onto the CTC wings course but i couldnt afford to get the loan. I would never ask my mum to re mortgage the house as i didnt think it fair. Do you know how frustrating that is? - to know you have the potential to pass training but just cannot get access to the funds?! so, what did i do? i got over the disappointment and got on with life. i saved my money and made sacrifices (with a little help) and got my ppl. 1st hurdle reached. now im looking at saving again and moving on to my cpl WHILST enjoying the flying my new ppl has enabled me to do.
i have wanted to fly since i was 7. im now 25 and have my ppl. 18 years so far and im willing to be patient!
i also suggest you look at the entry requirements to every integrated course and make sure you fulfil them before you even consider applying.
I think you need to be a little more realistic and a little more patient.
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The term sh1tty job is probably unfair to use insomuch that guys right now in the current market would probably snap your arm off for a shot at them.......night mail runs, single pilot IFR in a piston twin (real character building stuff in a harsh UK winter) and single pilot IFR on a twin turbo prop in Africa with no support to speak of.
I feel I have a great deal of experience and airmanship savvy to fall back on if needed and wouldn't change the way I came up "through the ranks" so to say.
I do think the original OP has got a slightly rose tinted view of the job i.e. cars, money,girls and dare I say it glamour. There are a lot of guys who see the shiny brochures and get sucked in by the ads the reality is very different, especially at 0330z on a freezing wet winters day with a one hour plus drive into work for a 9,10 or 12 duty day, followed by the drive home and the prospect of 4 or 5 similar days ahead.
In the current market the low houred CPL/fATPL is on to a beating for nothing.
I feel I have a great deal of experience and airmanship savvy to fall back on if needed and wouldn't change the way I came up "through the ranks" so to say.
I do think the original OP has got a slightly rose tinted view of the job i.e. cars, money,girls and dare I say it glamour. There are a lot of guys who see the shiny brochures and get sucked in by the ads the reality is very different, especially at 0330z on a freezing wet winters day with a one hour plus drive into work for a 9,10 or 12 duty day, followed by the drive home and the prospect of 4 or 5 similar days ahead.
In the current market the low houred CPL/fATPL is on to a beating for nothing.
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Quick bit of guidance for you:
Stay at college and get A Levels, unless you want to be on a very low wage in a crap job.
Employers generally require people with A Levels as it shows you have a bit of brain. If you choose to leave early, you could setup a business and be your own boss and save from there.
For an Integrated course you need £££ i.e. £80,000-£100,000
This requires security of generally £50,000 – this could be in the from of the parents paying/a house/savings etc. If you don’t have access to this security, then quite simply you cannot do an Integrated course.
If you work for 10yrs approx. saving about this much you could then do an Integrated course, otherwise your stuck with the Modular route (pay-as-you-go).
I have seen that BMI are getting rid of pilots (not suprised) but from research that I do I’ve also been seeing positive signs/information about expansion of airlines and orders for a/c and when they are due to be delivered. It’s a case of looking in the right place and not always on Pprune.
Pprune is useful but you have to extract “useful” information carefully.
If you make a silly drastic/not thought-out decision during your training, that could potentially bodge
up the rest of your training and ending your dream.
There are risky decisions but there are also calculated decisions.
Start looking into flight colleges for prices and training programmes and also buy yourself a Flyer Mag, to get some insight into flying and also look at the training companies at the back. Another option is to go to a Flyer Exhibition where all the training companies meet up, so you can meet them personally.
The industry is a mess at the moment (just like most other industries), but as with every recession there is one heck amount of a mess to clear up after. The recession storm will clear and you'll start noticing significant changes in around 1-3yrs time (my opinion).
I have a feeling that getting that first job will be a struggle but I’m willing to do another career (of many) until my time comes.
Stay at college and get A Levels, unless you want to be on a very low wage in a crap job.
Employers generally require people with A Levels as it shows you have a bit of brain. If you choose to leave early, you could setup a business and be your own boss and save from there.
For an Integrated course you need £££ i.e. £80,000-£100,000
This requires security of generally £50,000 – this could be in the from of the parents paying/a house/savings etc. If you don’t have access to this security, then quite simply you cannot do an Integrated course.
If you work for 10yrs approx. saving about this much you could then do an Integrated course, otherwise your stuck with the Modular route (pay-as-you-go).
I have seen that BMI are getting rid of pilots (not suprised) but from research that I do I’ve also been seeing positive signs/information about expansion of airlines and orders for a/c and when they are due to be delivered. It’s a case of looking in the right place and not always on Pprune.
Pprune is useful but you have to extract “useful” information carefully.
If you make a silly drastic/not thought-out decision during your training, that could potentially bodge
up the rest of your training and ending your dream.There are risky decisions but there are also calculated decisions.
Start looking into flight colleges for prices and training programmes and also buy yourself a Flyer Mag, to get some insight into flying and also look at the training companies at the back. Another option is to go to a Flyer Exhibition where all the training companies meet up, so you can meet them personally.
The industry is a mess at the moment (just like most other industries), but as with every recession there is one heck amount of a mess to clear up after. The recession storm will clear and you'll start noticing significant changes in around 1-3yrs time (my opinion).
I have a feeling that getting that first job will be a struggle but I’m willing to do another career (of many) until my time comes.
Last edited by Cirrus_Clouds; 26th Nov 2009 at 16:05.
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There are some interesting and varied responses on here and I've enjoyed reading them..
I've got a CPL and am just finishing an IR and then plan on going to Bournemouth in Jan to do my MCC.
I know there is a serious lack of work out there and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK unless I'm at the right place at the right time and get some of that aviation luck that happens from time to time.
I've loved every minute of the flying I've done over the last 10 years. a PPL then an aerobatic rating and then a few years of general experience and hour building before I decided to do my ATPL..
I didn't come from a wealthy background, I just had a passion for flying and after a lot of hard work and money saving am realising my goal..
By the end of Jan I'll have a Frozem ATPL and I'll struggle to get a job but who cares, I'm just loving it.. Ok, I loved everything apart from those horrid exams!
I've got a CPL and am just finishing an IR and then plan on going to Bournemouth in Jan to do my MCC.
I know there is a serious lack of work out there and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK unless I'm at the right place at the right time and get some of that aviation luck that happens from time to time.
I've loved every minute of the flying I've done over the last 10 years. a PPL then an aerobatic rating and then a few years of general experience and hour building before I decided to do my ATPL..
I didn't come from a wealthy background, I just had a passion for flying and after a lot of hard work and money saving am realising my goal..
By the end of Jan I'll have a Frozem ATPL and I'll struggle to get a job but who cares, I'm just loving it.. Ok, I loved everything apart from those horrid exams!
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You don't need to do an integrated course. I did the modular route and 4 months after completing everything I was starting a job on a medium jet in the UK. There was no question of me paying for a type-rating. If you do modular stick with one, maybe two providers.
An integrated course may help you stand out in the present environment, however, an OAT spokesman was recently quoted as saying that, in the last 12 months of 270 odd graduates, only 80 or so have been interviewed/placed with an airline. An integrated course probably won't teach you quite the same skills that might be useful should you end up doing air taxi, parachute dropping or aerial photography - I don't think SPIC ever allows you to foul up your nav and be properly worried!
There is an argument for undertaking your flight training during a downturn, as you could be in a good position when you finish, if that conincides with the upturn. However, we are still waist deep in the doo doo right now and it feels like we're treading water. Globally a lot of major airframe orders seem to be scheduled from 2012 onwards - putting off for another couple of years would do you no harm. Do your A-Levels (maths & physics not my strong point too, but being able to put them on your CV certainly looks better than Art or Media Studies!), get a part-time job, and if you can get a PPL under your belt over the next year or two, you'll be able to present yourself in a very good light to the bank, should you wish to borrow. Your required finance will also be less.
I completely empathise with your 'butterfly' feelings - I had those as well. But, you're only 19! Get being 19 out if your system, not so easy to be as wild as I was when 19, and be a responsible pilot. I didn't start until 25, and have no regrets. I'll certainly bring more life experience to a command than if I had seen nothing but aviation.
Good luck.
An integrated course may help you stand out in the present environment, however, an OAT spokesman was recently quoted as saying that, in the last 12 months of 270 odd graduates, only 80 or so have been interviewed/placed with an airline. An integrated course probably won't teach you quite the same skills that might be useful should you end up doing air taxi, parachute dropping or aerial photography - I don't think SPIC ever allows you to foul up your nav and be properly worried!
There is an argument for undertaking your flight training during a downturn, as you could be in a good position when you finish, if that conincides with the upturn. However, we are still waist deep in the doo doo right now and it feels like we're treading water. Globally a lot of major airframe orders seem to be scheduled from 2012 onwards - putting off for another couple of years would do you no harm. Do your A-Levels (maths & physics not my strong point too, but being able to put them on your CV certainly looks better than Art or Media Studies!), get a part-time job, and if you can get a PPL under your belt over the next year or two, you'll be able to present yourself in a very good light to the bank, should you wish to borrow. Your required finance will also be less.
I completely empathise with your 'butterfly' feelings - I had those as well. But, you're only 19! Get being 19 out if your system, not so easy to be as wild as I was when 19, and be a responsible pilot. I didn't start until 25, and have no regrets. I'll certainly bring more life experience to a command than if I had seen nothing but aviation.
Good luck.
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Whyjelly
Yeah, I know. Done the night mail, 'papers, crossed the North Sea night IFR not knowing if I would have to go back due wx, picked up everything from famous people to dead people to the wrong thing entirely (not our fault!). All that great stuff, wouldn't have missed it for the world. Wouldn't have wanted anyone impatient and desirous of the 'glamour' of a pilot's life to be doing it for me!
Yeah, I know. Done the night mail, 'papers, crossed the North Sea night IFR not knowing if I would have to go back due wx, picked up everything from famous people to dead people to the wrong thing entirely (not our fault!). All that great stuff, wouldn't have missed it for the world. Wouldn't have wanted anyone impatient and desirous of the 'glamour' of a pilot's life to be doing it for me!
I'm an oddball, in that I have equal passions for flying and engineering - which come together on my particular passion of test and research flying.
But ultimately, where the hell is the joy of spending your life sat in the left (or right) seat of an electric jet - or being abused by airline management and airport security. It's money and a fancy uniform, with a little bit of flying.
Personally, I would be quite happy to fly night mail, inter-island ferry, offshore fishery patrol (or best of all, prototype test flying - but that takes rather more than a pilots licence or two, and I do a bit of that already). Right hand seat in a 737 or A320? No thanks, and to hell with the extra money.
And if I had my current passion for aviation (which is rather stronger than when I was 19) I might try for the services - who have better aeroplanes, better training, and a natural home for talented but arrogant 19 years olds (which I definitely was - well, arrogant anyhow). I'd not be looking to go massively into debt, with a grossly overpriced training product, to chase a job which is much less interesting than it could be - in the hope that one day I'd get senior enough to be able to pay the debts off.
Sorry, that was a bit of a rant, but I feel better now.
G
But ultimately, where the hell is the joy of spending your life sat in the left (or right) seat of an electric jet - or being abused by airline management and airport security. It's money and a fancy uniform, with a little bit of flying.
Personally, I would be quite happy to fly night mail, inter-island ferry, offshore fishery patrol (or best of all, prototype test flying - but that takes rather more than a pilots licence or two, and I do a bit of that already). Right hand seat in a 737 or A320? No thanks, and to hell with the extra money.
And if I had my current passion for aviation (which is rather stronger than when I was 19) I might try for the services - who have better aeroplanes, better training, and a natural home for talented but arrogant 19 years olds (which I definitely was - well, arrogant anyhow). I'd not be looking to go massively into debt, with a grossly overpriced training product, to chase a job which is much less interesting than it could be - in the hope that one day I'd get senior enough to be able to pay the debts off.
Sorry, that was a bit of a rant, but I feel better now.
G
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"and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK"
Don't be harsh there is nothing wrong with flying pistons twins around the UK.
Don't be harsh there is nothing wrong with flying pistons twins around the UK.
I've had a lot of fun in the good old Seneca and Aztec and I hope I'll have a lot more but I'd also love a nice Dash 8 under my control one day and then who knows, maybe a 757 or 767..
But, offer me an airbus and I'll have the Seneca back please.. *joke*
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Its true i am apart of the 'me now' generation but that does not say i am not willing to heed advice. And no, a good car is not everything to me. What i was simply saying is that i want to get into aviation as quick as possible, i only have what, probably 70 years on this planet before i succumb to something terrible? I want to make the most of it.
I simply want to know what my options are so i know the best course to take.
I simply want to know what my options are so i know the best course to take.
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Well the quickest way is not an integrated course. If you have that money up-front you can do a modular course just as quickly (actually you technically could do it more quickly if you were good and worked very hard). At the end you will have £20-40k left over (I have heard figures of £80k thrown around for integrated courses, and accommodation at Oxford used to be ridiculously expensive), which will be very helpful for finding a job quickly, for example doing more flying, doing a type rating, an instructor rating etc.
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One of my IR instructors who flies for a major airline was discussing the whole subject with me the other day and unfortunately seems to think a low hours fATPL without a type rating would have to be extremely lucky to get work on a jet..
it's almost accepted that you need a type rating under your belt now.
I just hope I've got enough cash left after my MCC to get myself a type rating, maybe on an ATR or Dash 8..
it's almost accepted that you need a type rating under your belt now.
I just hope I've got enough cash left after my MCC to get myself a type rating, maybe on an ATR or Dash 8..
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I totally understand your post! I'm from a very normal background and my parents can't afford to pay for my flight training either. I'm not going to lie it makes things very difficult when you are actively competing against another social class which you will probably never be part of no matter how hard you try. I would be much happier if first officers were paid around the same as a bus driver and captains paid somewhere in the 35-40k region but in the same way as bus drivers the training was provided free of charge, I mean everything from the first flight onwards. I don't need to be paid 80-100k to maintain my standard of living because I have never had that standard of living in the first case. I would be quite happy to maintain council estate life whilst working as a Pilot its really not that bad. But I'm being screwed in a different way. If the above was true we would not have a bunch of hooray henrys paying 80K to go to Oxford, do you see any posh bus drivers?
I have done whats been suggested by many on here, work whilst training and avoid debt at all costs. Its been extremley hard, doing so has involved shift work including nights in order to release more days to train. I will graduate with little more than 10K of debt, I can probably pay this back quite quickly now since my Enthusiasm for Aviation has resulted in gaining a job in the industry which pays quite well and is relativley secure despite the recession, I have been lucky. I am however faced with a dilemma, when I started my training most of the Airlines were recruiting, there was plenty of instructors jobs and sponsored type ratings around. Now its a different world, after grinding my way to an fATPL what do I do? I probably can't afford a Ryanair or a Wizz Air type rating, once again the hooray henrys of this world win.
So heres my advice:
1.) Train in the best value way possible, modular flight training with 50% of the hour building in the states and a good value CPL/IR course in the uk from stapleford, flying time, bonus etc
2.) AVOID DEBT LIKE THE PLAGUE
3.) Put anyone who you know who is posh off flight training at any possible cost, use phrases like industrial industry, shift work and compare it to coal mining!
4.) look after your family and your friends they are more important than your licence.
5.) Be modest about your Aviation achievements around your non-aviation friends, they are unlikely to understand it and will see it as a sign of Vanity which is unwelcome by most.
I have done whats been suggested by many on here, work whilst training and avoid debt at all costs. Its been extremley hard, doing so has involved shift work including nights in order to release more days to train. I will graduate with little more than 10K of debt, I can probably pay this back quite quickly now since my Enthusiasm for Aviation has resulted in gaining a job in the industry which pays quite well and is relativley secure despite the recession, I have been lucky. I am however faced with a dilemma, when I started my training most of the Airlines were recruiting, there was plenty of instructors jobs and sponsored type ratings around. Now its a different world, after grinding my way to an fATPL what do I do? I probably can't afford a Ryanair or a Wizz Air type rating, once again the hooray henrys of this world win.
So heres my advice:
1.) Train in the best value way possible, modular flight training with 50% of the hour building in the states and a good value CPL/IR course in the uk from stapleford, flying time, bonus etc
2.) AVOID DEBT LIKE THE PLAGUE
3.) Put anyone who you know who is posh off flight training at any possible cost, use phrases like industrial industry, shift work and compare it to coal mining!
4.) look after your family and your friends they are more important than your licence.
5.) Be modest about your Aviation achievements around your non-aviation friends, they are unlikely to understand it and will see it as a sign of Vanity which is unwelcome by most.
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Flyboy1818, most of what you've written is valid and true but can you please explain what a so-called "posh" or "Hooray Henry" is? Because at the moment, it reads as though you have chip on your shoulder about people who've worked hard for money and who maybe speak well and I'm sure you don't really have those prejudices, do you?
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Errrrm, hate to say it but many FOs are paid the same as bus drivers, plenty of them less than even the average bus driver.
Last edited by 12Watt Tim; 5th Dec 2009 at 10:32.
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No I have a chip on my shoulder against individuals who have there flight training paid for by there familys and have never had to pay for it in the first place. Thats what I refer to as posh or hooray henry. If you read carefully my post clearly states that I have been in a similar situation to the individual asking the question and have paid for my flight training by working at the same time. I do agree some pilots are paid less than bus drivers, but some are still very well paid at the top end of the profession and thats really what makes the job different, thats what attracts people from well off familys who will pay for the training. Do you really think these peoples parents would pay for the training if they knew that it was 40k tops? Would you be prepared to sign a 80K loan secured on you parents modest 3 bedroom semi if you knew that the chances of making repayments in full were unlikely? What if your parents simply said no, we have worked hard for our modest house etc etc
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How about this flyboy1818 .... you work hard, get a good qualification and a good job, save your money wisely, marry and have children. When that child grows up, you want the best for them; most parents will do what they can to help their children.
You shouldn't prejudge people just because they happen to be born of parents who do have the money any more than you would prejudge someone just because they happen to be born of parents who don't.
My father paid for my CPL training - he came from a working class background but worked hard all his life. When he died, I inherited his house. Oddly, I'd prefer it if he was still alive.
Life's not fair. Don't expect it to be. Chips on shoulders have no place in a cockpit.
Cheers
Whirls
You shouldn't prejudge people just because they happen to be born of parents who do have the money any more than you would prejudge someone just because they happen to be born of parents who don't.
My father paid for my CPL training - he came from a working class background but worked hard all his life. When he died, I inherited his house. Oddly, I'd prefer it if he was still alive.
Life's not fair. Don't expect it to be. Chips on shoulders have no place in a cockpit.
Cheers
Whirls
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I don't take my chips to the cockpit thats why I have put them on prune! I still don't understand how I can complete a CPL/IR course on the same aircraft and at the same test centre as a CTC cadet yet have less options when I leave the course because I'm modular and could not afford the 80K bribe. In a world where as a nation we are meant to embrace equal opportunities it smacks on apartheid.