ATPL to dream or not to dream approaching 34?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SW France
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATPL to dream or not to dream approaching 34?
Thought I'd throw my situation into the world of PPrune for a bit of feedback both good or bad.
I am currently 33, but have always loved the world of aviation from the days of getting my Jetset logbook signed as youngster when I travelled long haul between South Africa and the UK. I even lived opposite a BA 737 now 777 Capt for 15 years and would often ask him about his work... The dream of being a pilot has always been there, I just got a bit distracted along the way.
Finished school with GCSEs and ALevels and then went on to University, however during the holidays between my 1st and 2nd year, my dad died and this put me into a tail spin. However, I resolved to carry on studying and completed my degree in Geographical Sciences. After uni, I just wanted to be free for a while. So worked in the US, Australia and New Zealand in the world of skydiving (parachute packer, freefall photographer) - I even amassed 15 hours flying and flew solo a few times.
Back in the UK in 2002, I had a years stint at a regional airport working as an airside staff/ground handeler. For the last 5 years I have worked in Financial markets and have gained UK and International diplomas in financial analysis.
But the aviation dream still lies beneath.. so I have been applying/enquiring to a few training establishments about doing the ATPL intergrted course.
Got this response recently from one of them (although I won't name the establishment)..
However our Training Team found your age could be a limiting factor to start learning a pilot career, as you may have problems to find a job afterwards.
Please be informed that our experience to date has been that students who join the course age 30 and over tend to struggle more than younger students (the average student age on campus currently is 22-23)
When it comes to your job prospects at the end of the course we have to be honest with you and say that is it will be difficult to find employment with a large number of airlines.
You will be competing against guys and girls who will graduate with exactly the same flying qualifications as you, but few years younger.
Most airlines express a preference for taking on low hour pilots before they reach 27 years old. Any older and they are looking for experience commensurate with age, which you would not have. This is not to say that there are no jobs out there with airlines for more mature pilots who cannot afford a continuous flow through of young people.
For you to have any chance of employment even with these smaller airline though, you would need to perform extremely well in training -ie there would need to be some balancing plus to weigh against your age.
SO... any reflection on my age, situation, potential etc. would be most welcome.
All the best to all of you,
JJ
I am currently 33, but have always loved the world of aviation from the days of getting my Jetset logbook signed as youngster when I travelled long haul between South Africa and the UK. I even lived opposite a BA 737 now 777 Capt for 15 years and would often ask him about his work... The dream of being a pilot has always been there, I just got a bit distracted along the way.
Finished school with GCSEs and ALevels and then went on to University, however during the holidays between my 1st and 2nd year, my dad died and this put me into a tail spin. However, I resolved to carry on studying and completed my degree in Geographical Sciences. After uni, I just wanted to be free for a while. So worked in the US, Australia and New Zealand in the world of skydiving (parachute packer, freefall photographer) - I even amassed 15 hours flying and flew solo a few times.
Back in the UK in 2002, I had a years stint at a regional airport working as an airside staff/ground handeler. For the last 5 years I have worked in Financial markets and have gained UK and International diplomas in financial analysis.
But the aviation dream still lies beneath.. so I have been applying/enquiring to a few training establishments about doing the ATPL intergrted course.
Got this response recently from one of them (although I won't name the establishment)..
However our Training Team found your age could be a limiting factor to start learning a pilot career, as you may have problems to find a job afterwards.
Please be informed that our experience to date has been that students who join the course age 30 and over tend to struggle more than younger students (the average student age on campus currently is 22-23)
When it comes to your job prospects at the end of the course we have to be honest with you and say that is it will be difficult to find employment with a large number of airlines.
You will be competing against guys and girls who will graduate with exactly the same flying qualifications as you, but few years younger.
Most airlines express a preference for taking on low hour pilots before they reach 27 years old. Any older and they are looking for experience commensurate with age, which you would not have. This is not to say that there are no jobs out there with airlines for more mature pilots who cannot afford a continuous flow through of young people.
For you to have any chance of employment even with these smaller airline though, you would need to perform extremely well in training -ie there would need to be some balancing plus to weigh against your age.
SO... any reflection on my age, situation, potential etc. would be most welcome.
All the best to all of you,
JJ
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: November18
Age: 48
Posts: 258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good luck mate. I'm pretty certain that you have been informed of a worst case scenario. "Life experience" also counts.
I am not an ATPL holder so not really qualified to say. I base my opinion on what I have read on here the past 10 years.
I am not an ATPL holder so not really qualified to say. I base my opinion on what I have read on here the past 10 years.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly it appears aviation in general is a game for the youngsters...even in my trade ATC the new recruits are just out of shorts!!! that said some of us are still in them at a grand old age!! 
I drive past Prestwick airport every day and see the young Ryanair pilots walking to work and most look like they have just left school!!!
That said good luck as without doubt working in aviation is the best job in the world.....I have spent 37 years doing in the job so far and still enjoy every minute of the job.
I drive past Prestwick airport every day and see the young Ryanair pilots walking to work and most look like they have just left school!!!That said good luck as without doubt working in aviation is the best job in the world.....I have spent 37 years doing in the job so far and still enjoy every minute of the job.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Southampton
Age: 60
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without doubt you know what's going on in the world.
IF you were to try it the you must accept you could be doing the training for nothing. You must be able both financially and psychologically prepared for that to happen. IF you can afford to do it and lose the lot and IF you feel you could cope with the stress of not getting a job and thus falling at the last hurdle and never realising your dream then I say "well why not?"
The timing is the only question. Now is absoloutely bloody horrendous. Maybe next year it will only be bloody horrendous and the year after just horrendous. Or maybe not. Who knows?
If you could start the training whilst keeping your current job then that's great and do it over as long as possible so that you could be ready at the right time. Of course you'll be getting older all the time and the job will most likely be ever harder to get.
If you want to be able to say "well i tried" and you had fun doing it and you don't feel bitter at the end for failing then go for it. The likelyhood has already been spelt out.
I did my commercial training in 1998/9 at 34 and it took 2 years to get a job. I did at that point have 1800hrs having learned to fly in 1984 and been a very part-time instructor for 13yrs.
Before you do spend any money get yourself a class 1 medical. Without which you won't even get to the start line.
Best of luck.
IF you were to try it the you must accept you could be doing the training for nothing. You must be able both financially and psychologically prepared for that to happen. IF you can afford to do it and lose the lot and IF you feel you could cope with the stress of not getting a job and thus falling at the last hurdle and never realising your dream then I say "well why not?"
The timing is the only question. Now is absoloutely bloody horrendous. Maybe next year it will only be bloody horrendous and the year after just horrendous. Or maybe not. Who knows?
If you could start the training whilst keeping your current job then that's great and do it over as long as possible so that you could be ready at the right time. Of course you'll be getting older all the time and the job will most likely be ever harder to get.
If you want to be able to say "well i tried" and you had fun doing it and you don't feel bitter at the end for failing then go for it. The likelyhood has already been spelt out.
I did my commercial training in 1998/9 at 34 and it took 2 years to get a job. I did at that point have 1800hrs having learned to fly in 1984 and been a very part-time instructor for 13yrs.
Before you do spend any money get yourself a class 1 medical. Without which you won't even get to the start line.
Best of luck.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: SW France
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tks for your replies, some good points - especialy from Irishjetdriver. Will defintely ponder on this.
Yeah, agreed it seems a terrible time to be thinking of training. Being a financial analyst and a Macro one at that, I should have a better idea than most when to time it. But you just don't know if the economic recovery will be V shaped, U shaped, double dip or we go into a decade long deflation like Japan experienced from 1990 onwards.
Appreciate the time you spent to reply to my thread.
Sincerely,
JJ
Yeah, agreed it seems a terrible time to be thinking of training. Being a financial analyst and a Macro one at that, I should have a better idea than most when to time it. But you just don't know if the economic recovery will be V shaped, U shaped, double dip or we go into a decade long deflation like Japan experienced from 1990 onwards.
Appreciate the time you spent to reply to my thread.
Sincerely,
JJ
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bournemouth
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
42ir
Hi JJ
So you need to chase that dream I did at 40 plus now sitting on a F-ATPL/IRT /MCC 1350 hours and I am now fixing SLUICE machines
B.A may call me tomorrow, if they do I may consider a position with them!
Would I do it again well all I can say is without a doubt, will you be respected for all that you will go through to get a licence not to mention the money the answer is NO.
If you train as a Doctor or Solicitor etc that would be different matter as they get a good wage to start with and respected from the start, but at the end of the day they cant fly you can
(sorry docs and sols that can)
If you dont follow your dream it will mess up your life and if you do it may well
I wish you all the very best please keep me informed
Regards
Tom
So you need to chase that dream I did at 40 plus now sitting on a F-ATPL/IRT /MCC 1350 hours and I am now fixing SLUICE machines
B.A may call me tomorrow, if they do I may consider a position with them!Would I do it again well all I can say is without a doubt, will you be respected for all that you will go through to get a licence not to mention the money the answer is NO.
If you train as a Doctor or Solicitor etc that would be different matter as they get a good wage to start with and respected from the start, but at the end of the day they cant fly you can
(sorry docs and sols that can)If you dont follow your dream it will mess up your life and if you do it may well
I wish you all the very best please keep me informed
Regards
Tom
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Here, there and everywhere
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JJ,
My advice is go for it.
I first started the path towards the CPL/IR back in the early nineties but due some financial problems, the plans stalled and I went over to work with flight operations (flight dispatching).
More recently (mid-2007) a short flight on a C182 with a mate of mine re-ignited the old passion and since then I not only got my PPL ticket but I'm also on the verge of taking my check ride for the CPL/IR.
Our industry is very broad and with the added age (I'm 35 now) we start to see thinks a bit differently than a 20ish year old. Airlines still attract me a lot, but bizjets, and even GA and flight instructions are also viable options.
On the other hand, I already prepared myself for not getting a job, but, the way I see it, I must at least take all possible steps to make me eligible for a flying job.
Good luck and enjoy every minute of it.
My advice is go for it.
I first started the path towards the CPL/IR back in the early nineties but due some financial problems, the plans stalled and I went over to work with flight operations (flight dispatching).
More recently (mid-2007) a short flight on a C182 with a mate of mine re-ignited the old passion and since then I not only got my PPL ticket but I'm also on the verge of taking my check ride for the CPL/IR.
Our industry is very broad and with the added age (I'm 35 now) we start to see thinks a bit differently than a 20ish year old. Airlines still attract me a lot, but bizjets, and even GA and flight instructions are also viable options.
On the other hand, I already prepared myself for not getting a job, but, the way I see it, I must at least take all possible steps to make me eligible for a flying job.
Good luck and enjoy every minute of it.
Supercharged PPRuNer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Posts: 1,183
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trial lesson aged 29, 7 years to qualify, CPL/IR aged 36 and an airline job within a few months. And that was via modular training and without having to pay for a type rating.
I’m nothing special, and I know quite a few others with similar stories. Turboprop operators in particular are often happy with older candidates, as they are more likely to stick around and not leave to fly an Airbus at the first opportunity. For what it’s worth, I think timing (as in timing the job market) and determination are much more important factors than age in securing your first job.
I’m nothing special, and I know quite a few others with similar stories. Turboprop operators in particular are often happy with older candidates, as they are more likely to stick around and not leave to fly an Airbus at the first opportunity. For what it’s worth, I think timing (as in timing the job market) and determination are much more important factors than age in securing your first job.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: In the SIM
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G SXTY,
And what is wrong with flying the Airbus!!?
Some good points here. If you have the right plan of action there is no reason why you cannot make your dreams a reality. It is a hard road but most certainly worth it. On the last intake with the company I work, they took a large range of ages, from 19 to 38.
All the best.
And what is wrong with flying the Airbus!!?
Some good points here. If you have the right plan of action there is no reason why you cannot make your dreams a reality. It is a hard road but most certainly worth it. On the last intake with the company I work, they took a large range of ages, from 19 to 38.
All the best.
Supercharged PPRuNer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Posts: 1,183
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airbus? Autothrottles and 3 axis autopilots? Pull out tray tables and hot food? You call that flying?
Pah! Give me the life of a one armed paper hangar and a TP salary any day of the week.
Pah! Give me the life of a one armed paper hangar and a TP salary any day of the week.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: In the SIM
Posts: 976
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hahahahahahahaha.
Autothrottles? Autothrust sir. Traytables? Well I had a surprise the other day. Myself and the Captain were standing there in amazment to see that one tray table was missing, no where to put your grub!? I even looked it up in the MEL to make sure we could still go .
Autothrottles? Autothrust sir
. Traytables? Well I had a surprise the other day. Myself and the Captain were standing there in amazment to see that one tray table was missing, no where to put your grub!? I even looked it up in the MEL to make sure we could still go .
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind You.....
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just ask yourself this question... Do you have a reason not to?
If you're really in it for the flying, would it really matter if you're flying on regionals, corporate, freight dog or a flight instructor. It's all up to you.
If you're really in it for the flying, would it really matter if you're flying on regionals, corporate, freight dog or a flight instructor. It's all up to you.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JJ,
I am towards my late 20s now and currently doing my atpl. Me too, thinking whether I be able to compete with the guys much younger than me and we will end up the same licence(s) (fatpl). In my opinion, u have to think what i got that these guy havent got i.e. higher education, experiences etc. You have to believe yourself that you can do it. There is a probability that i may end up with a job or no job, but at least i know the outcome.
no risk no dream
hope it helps
n.dave
I am towards my late 20s now and currently doing my atpl. Me too, thinking whether I be able to compete with the guys much younger than me and we will end up the same licence(s) (fatpl). In my opinion, u have to think what i got that these guy havent got i.e. higher education, experiences etc. You have to believe yourself that you can do it. There is a probability that i may end up with a job or no job, but at least i know the outcome.
no risk no dream
hope it helps
n.dave
Age 34! Finished IR/MCC at age 37. First TP job a few months later. One year on the Dash 8 then Airbus with a Big Airline. Five years on and looking forward to 777 course in the hopefully not too distant future or perhaps hanging on for a 380 course. All depends on your attitude to risk, critical assessment of your own potential and ability, commitment, cash and support from your nearest and dearest.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: earth
Age: 46
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If its always been a dream to do it why wait till your 34 before you want to realise that dream??.......seems to me you may have missed the boat but as they say nothing ventured nothing gained!!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everywhere
Posts: 620
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The truest thing that has been said is that it all comes down to your timing. Anyone can get an fATPL and a job whether they are 18 or 40, whether they achieve first time passes in everything or fail a few things, whether they trained modularly or integrated, whether they are a stable extrovert or an unstable introvert etc.
Get the timing wrong, regardless of your aptitude and personality, and you'll never make it without a great deal of further expense.
Get the timing right, with third time passes in your IR and low ATPL passes as I know a chap did from an integrated FTO and you'll get a job flying 737s (though it was with that bloody Irish airline).
It's also about how you approach your goal of becoming a paid pilot. To quote General George Patton:
“Good tactics can save even the worst strategy. Bad tactics will destroy even the best strategy.”
Get the timing wrong, regardless of your aptitude and personality, and you'll never make it without a great deal of further expense.
Get the timing right, with third time passes in your IR and low ATPL passes as I know a chap did from an integrated FTO and you'll get a job flying 737s (though it was with that bloody Irish airline).
It's also about how you approach your goal of becoming a paid pilot. To quote General George Patton:
“Good tactics can save even the worst strategy. Bad tactics will destroy even the best strategy.”
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Totally agree with you there Beak.
I started my PPL about a week before my 30th b/day and finished my MCC the day before my 34th b/day. Sadly that was this year so I am in complete agreement that timing is everything. I've not had a sniff of anything since I qualified, and the only operator to even reply to an application was Jet Republic !!!.
I stalled my training along the way too, partly due to a fear of the Atpl ground school, thinking I was too thick to do it, then struggling to do self study for 18 months before biting the bullet, taking 8 months off work and doing the ground school full time (which in my heart of hearts I knew I should have done all along as I am not disciplined enough to sit and teach myself but learn well with someone instructing me). I actually found it much easier than I ever could have imagined and was kicking myself that I didn't go residential from the beginning. The only other park of my training I did full time was the PPL which I did in just under 3 weeks. The rest, I managed to do around work just taking the odd day off here and there.
Had I have managed my training a little better and had more confidence in myself a bit sooner then I would have finished in the middle of the upturn and may have walked straight into a job, but we live and learn.
If you are starting flying later in life, you just have to be more realistic in your expectations. You are probably not going to make Capt at BA for example, but no reason why you shouldn't at a smaller charter/lo-co/regional/cargo/ airline.
I would think that now might be a good time to start training if you are going to carry on working and go modular and spread the training out over a couple of years to give the market chance to pick up whilst still progressing and having less to do when it does. Giving up work and going integrated is probably not a good idea at the moment though at least until the market shows some signs of recovery.
I started my PPL about a week before my 30th b/day and finished my MCC the day before my 34th b/day. Sadly that was this year so I am in complete agreement that timing is everything. I've not had a sniff of anything since I qualified, and the only operator to even reply to an application was Jet Republic !!!.
I stalled my training along the way too, partly due to a fear of the Atpl ground school, thinking I was too thick to do it, then struggling to do self study for 18 months before biting the bullet, taking 8 months off work and doing the ground school full time (which in my heart of hearts I knew I should have done all along as I am not disciplined enough to sit and teach myself but learn well with someone instructing me). I actually found it much easier than I ever could have imagined and was kicking myself that I didn't go residential from the beginning. The only other park of my training I did full time was the PPL which I did in just under 3 weeks. The rest, I managed to do around work just taking the odd day off here and there.
Had I have managed my training a little better and had more confidence in myself a bit sooner then I would have finished in the middle of the upturn and may have walked straight into a job, but we live and learn.
If you are starting flying later in life, you just have to be more realistic in your expectations. You are probably not going to make Capt at BA for example, but no reason why you shouldn't at a smaller charter/lo-co/regional/cargo/ airline.
I would think that now might be a good time to start training if you are going to carry on working and go modular and spread the training out over a couple of years to give the market chance to pick up whilst still progressing and having less to do when it does. Giving up work and going integrated is probably not a good idea at the moment though at least until the market shows some signs of recovery.