What's wrong with being 40 when you start training?
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What's wrong with being 40 when you start training?
I've been reading through the PPRuNe threads for some time and have just registered so I can vent my frustration...
I cannot understand why airlines reject oldies with a fresh FATPL? Why does happen? Surely a new pilot at 40 still has 20 years of flying in him/her ...that's a significant number of years.
Why is it that a twenty year old is a more-appealing prospect to an established carrier?
I am just about to begin my PPL and hope to go all the way if things work out. I am trying to ignore all the ageism that is rife in certain training companies otherwise I'll continue to procrastinate in the same way I've been for the last three or four years.
Any guidance as to get through the next couple of years is very welcome - in any form...
I cannot understand why airlines reject oldies with a fresh FATPL? Why does happen? Surely a new pilot at 40 still has 20 years of flying in him/her ...that's a significant number of years.
Why is it that a twenty year old is a more-appealing prospect to an established carrier?
I am just about to begin my PPL and hope to go all the way if things work out. I am trying to ignore all the ageism that is rife in certain training companies otherwise I'll continue to procrastinate in the same way I've been for the last three or four years.
Any guidance as to get through the next couple of years is very welcome - in any form...
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You can't teach an old dog new tricks
Well you can but it takes longer.
As you get older, it takes more mental effort to retain information. I can guarantee that studying for the ATPL exams will take you longer now than if you were 20 especially if you are out of the habit of studying.
Like it or not, the physical skill of flying is harder for older people and again, it'll take you longer to get your PPL than you would have done if you were 20.
Consequently, I suspect that airlines see this as a detrimental aspect when it comes to currency training.
Also, as a forty year old, you will have higher expectations in life and are less likely to put up with crap. Therefore, airlines may see more mature new recruits as potential trouble-makers even tough you may perceive that not to be the case. You'll be starting at the bottom whereas you may well be at the top of your field now.
There is a perception that older people are not prepared to report to someone younger than them.
I'm not saying any of it is right but these are possibly some of the reasons. Of course, some 40 year olds will be better than some 20 year olds. Some more mature newly-qualified commercial pilots have found successful careers in airlines but more priobably prefer working for smaller charter operators where there experience of life in general is preferred.
However, I'd be interested in any ageism within any training companies. Quite frankly, it's none of their business and they should welcome the custom.
Cheers
Whirls
As you get older, it takes more mental effort to retain information. I can guarantee that studying for the ATPL exams will take you longer now than if you were 20 especially if you are out of the habit of studying.
Like it or not, the physical skill of flying is harder for older people and again, it'll take you longer to get your PPL than you would have done if you were 20.
Consequently, I suspect that airlines see this as a detrimental aspect when it comes to currency training.
Also, as a forty year old, you will have higher expectations in life and are less likely to put up with crap. Therefore, airlines may see more mature new recruits as potential trouble-makers even tough you may perceive that not to be the case. You'll be starting at the bottom whereas you may well be at the top of your field now.
There is a perception that older people are not prepared to report to someone younger than them.
I'm not saying any of it is right but these are possibly some of the reasons. Of course, some 40 year olds will be better than some 20 year olds. Some more mature newly-qualified commercial pilots have found successful careers in airlines but more priobably prefer working for smaller charter operators where there experience of life in general is preferred.
However, I'd be interested in any ageism within any training companies. Quite frankly, it's none of their business and they should welcome the custom.
Cheers
Whirls
Last edited by Whirlygig; 2nd Jul 2009 at 19:39.
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Indeed, there's nothing wrong in starting when you're 40. in fact, one south coast school I spoke to a few months ago said they frequently had career-changers in their 40s going through the motions...
...but my confusion is why airlines don't see the benefits in going for an oldie.
As Whirlygig mentioned, there is a concern that an individual's learning skills are shown to be inversely proportional to age - which may be true with certain mature folk. However, as a lecturer with the Open University I tutor a very wide range of students between 20 and 70. Believe me, there are some seriously smart, able people out there across the age range.
At 40 you're no where near past it - well, I'm definately not...
...but my confusion is why airlines don't see the benefits in going for an oldie.
As Whirlygig mentioned, there is a concern that an individual's learning skills are shown to be inversely proportional to age - which may be true with certain mature folk. However, as a lecturer with the Open University I tutor a very wide range of students between 20 and 70. Believe me, there are some seriously smart, able people out there across the age range.
At 40 you're no where near past it - well, I'm definately not...
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I am forty and I am just over half way through my training course with a fairly well known training provider. Having been out of a learning environment for well over 20 years the initial groundschool was tough, but with hard work I came through with mid 90's average marks. Not as good as some but better than others. The flying itself is intensive but enjoyable. I spent a lot of time prior to the course looking at how instruments work etc and this has helped a fair amount. It is too early to make a judgement about my flying ability but my gut feeling is that I will be just above average.
All of the above won't make a huge difference with an prospective employer who has 'training risk' issues with older applicants but at least demostrates to other employers that if I am good enough, I am young enough.
All of the above won't make a huge difference with an prospective employer who has 'training risk' issues with older applicants but at least demostrates to other employers that if I am good enough, I am young enough.
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I don't think there is a huge issue with training at 40 years of age, but I certainly wouldn't go into it 'lightly'...
I don't know your personal circumstances, you could be a 'Rothschild or Hilton' family member for all I know but I would have a long hard think about what is a realistic aiming point for your flying career. You're going to invest a huge amount of money/loss of earnings/effort that is without a shadow of a doubt a huge achievement and very satisfying - but in terms of your earning potential for someone who doesn't have a PPL yet?
Yes, you could argue that by the time you're finished, the new 'upwards cycle' will maybe have begun but take some time to study the industry as a whole in the UK...44/45 years of age with a fATPL/<200 hours - the next cycle could be something we've never seen before, economics have changed with airlines prefering 20 something newly trained pilots prepared to work for nothing from 01st May to 31st October, "see you next year then, we'll let you know when we've worked out our estblishment figures"
Airlines are shrinking right now, this next cycle might just be enough to soak up experience/Middle East returnees! Not to mention at the very least, all those very competant guys/gals sat 5+ years in turbo-props wanting to move up the ladder...
Your aiming point could only be as far as a turbo-prop, they'll love your life experience and a command is a possibilty, providing recruitment is good, within a 3 year period and 1500 hours/ATPL issued...but terms and conditions are not as good as the bigger players and salary at FO level is bad £22k ish - you're only ever going to be paid what you're worth...
Now you may say "I just wanna fly..."...maybe not at 40...but i'd becareful, it's just a job when all said and done and the first few years you will live to work, then the shine will eventually come off and you'll join the rest of us in been very very privilaged in loving your job...but you'll work to live eventually...and pushing 50 earning £22k or maybe not making it at all could be harsh...
And on that cheery note...
Goodnight
JB
I don't know your personal circumstances, you could be a 'Rothschild or Hilton' family member for all I know but I would have a long hard think about what is a realistic aiming point for your flying career. You're going to invest a huge amount of money/loss of earnings/effort that is without a shadow of a doubt a huge achievement and very satisfying - but in terms of your earning potential for someone who doesn't have a PPL yet?
Yes, you could argue that by the time you're finished, the new 'upwards cycle' will maybe have begun but take some time to study the industry as a whole in the UK...44/45 years of age with a fATPL/<200 hours - the next cycle could be something we've never seen before, economics have changed with airlines prefering 20 something newly trained pilots prepared to work for nothing from 01st May to 31st October, "see you next year then, we'll let you know when we've worked out our estblishment figures"
Airlines are shrinking right now, this next cycle might just be enough to soak up experience/Middle East returnees! Not to mention at the very least, all those very competant guys/gals sat 5+ years in turbo-props wanting to move up the ladder...
Your aiming point could only be as far as a turbo-prop, they'll love your life experience and a command is a possibilty, providing recruitment is good, within a 3 year period and 1500 hours/ATPL issued...but terms and conditions are not as good as the bigger players and salary at FO level is bad £22k ish - you're only ever going to be paid what you're worth...
Now you may say "I just wanna fly..."...maybe not at 40...but i'd becareful, it's just a job when all said and done and the first few years you will live to work, then the shine will eventually come off and you'll join the rest of us in been very very privilaged in loving your job...but you'll work to live eventually...and pushing 50 earning £22k or maybe not making it at all could be harsh...
And on that cheery note...
Goodnight
JB
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The oldest I've seen is an ATR F/O who started CPL training at 51 and started flying the ATR at 53. All paid for by his employer, btw.
Mind you, he was a PPL with some 20 years of flying experience.
Mind you, he was a PPL with some 20 years of flying experience.
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Go for it Kid...You might not make the Job as soon as you may like due to the economic situation however, its better than blowing Ya Brains out as prescribed by Jesus our Lord WWW!!
PS: Started late myself and in deep reccession, ended up driving the 747 Classic!
Jesus, How long a ban have I qualified for?
PS: Started late myself and in deep reccession, ended up driving the 747 Classic!
Jesus, How long a ban have I qualified for?
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Is Forty To Old....shouldnt Even Be A Question.
Der Abolute Hammer,
Your full of Seirra Hotel India Tango, son shine!
Peoplw like you with that attitude, puts this forrum to shame!!!!
tww1
Your full of Seirra Hotel India Tango, son shine!
Peoplw like you with that attitude, puts this forrum to shame!!!!
tww1
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Absolutely nothing oldie-going-for-it. Wow, Forty is not old, it's the new 20. Don't be afraid of change especially if you don't have to take out a loan, and initial low salary is not a problem. Better do something you like for the next 20 years rather than get stuck at something you are bored of.
AOPA Flight Training - You're Never Too Old To Fly
AOPA Flight Training - You're Never Too Old To Fly
I'm not near my library to look up the exact reference, but Nevil Shute writes in "Slide Rule" about employing a small company Chief Pilot - this was in the 1930s I think.
They got through a small succession of young, bright, capable - but generally unreliable pilots with too much interest in the lifestyle, and too little in the responsibilities of the job.
They eventually employed a chap in his mid 40s, mortgage, children, perhaps less obvious ability than the youngsters - but they never looked back. Utterly reliable, always had an eye on what was good for the company, was with them for many years and never ever let them down.
His moral was to always try and employ somebody with a lot to lose if the job goes wrong.
Personally, whilst not in the airlines, I work and employ a fair number of people in aviation. I'm most conscious of (a) getting the right people regardless of age, and (b) trying to maintain a reasonable age and ability gradient across the organisation so that everybody can see a career progression and learn from the different perspectives of others - that might depending upon circumstance have me most interested in employing youngsters or oldies, but I'd never put a hard and fast rule on it.
G
They got through a small succession of young, bright, capable - but generally unreliable pilots with too much interest in the lifestyle, and too little in the responsibilities of the job.
They eventually employed a chap in his mid 40s, mortgage, children, perhaps less obvious ability than the youngsters - but they never looked back. Utterly reliable, always had an eye on what was good for the company, was with them for many years and never ever let them down.
His moral was to always try and employ somebody with a lot to lose if the job goes wrong.
Personally, whilst not in the airlines, I work and employ a fair number of people in aviation. I'm most conscious of (a) getting the right people regardless of age, and (b) trying to maintain a reasonable age and ability gradient across the organisation so that everybody can see a career progression and learn from the different perspectives of others - that might depending upon circumstance have me most interested in employing youngsters or oldies, but I'd never put a hard and fast rule on it.
G
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You are making the same mistake that the youngsters make. The airlines are not salivating at the prospect of frozen ATPL holders generally. Historically they have sought experience commensurate with the vacancies they are seeking to fulfill. This has been satisfied by career improvers and ex military pilots for the most part, with some (cadet) intake from approved and or affiliated training schools in small measure.
In recent years there has been an expanding industry of airlines and flight training organisations offering a mutually beneficial package of training leading up to a type rating and line training. This has had the effect of providing a stream of new and low cost first officers for some airline companies, and a fairly seamless fast track career progression for some trainees. These trainees would hopefully complete their probationary periods and be offered full time paid employment with either that same or another company. The problem of course was that this distorted the market for pilots. Career advancers and ex-military pilots were now competing for "jobs" that this rapidly flourishing "integrated" industry was turning out. Coupled with the economic turndown, and plentiful supply of applicants, the market has been oversupplied and prices (wages) have been significantly depressed.
The good news is that in fact companies cannot discriminate against you simply on the basis of your age. Of course they can discriminate (lawfully) on the basis of so many other factors, that it is almost irrelevant. Nevertheless age alone cannot be used as a reason for refusal.
With age comes maturity, and for that reason perhaps there it is a less appealing prospect to invest large sums of money into very risky and speculative ventures. Buying "jobs" may seem appealing at 19 or 20 when you may be more blinkered to the reality of what is happening around you and there is still 45 years ahead of you and few immediate commitments other than those you seek to embrace in pursuit of this career. At 40 you are likely to already have many other commitments and a far more cautious approach to risk generally. The airlines that have not embarked on this "pay to fly" concept (and they are becoming fewer,) are still constrained by the wider economy, and would still source their potential candidates from those with experience and at age 40 many similar applicants would have plenty of that experience.
In recent years there has been an expanding industry of airlines and flight training organisations offering a mutually beneficial package of training leading up to a type rating and line training. This has had the effect of providing a stream of new and low cost first officers for some airline companies, and a fairly seamless fast track career progression for some trainees. These trainees would hopefully complete their probationary periods and be offered full time paid employment with either that same or another company. The problem of course was that this distorted the market for pilots. Career advancers and ex-military pilots were now competing for "jobs" that this rapidly flourishing "integrated" industry was turning out. Coupled with the economic turndown, and plentiful supply of applicants, the market has been oversupplied and prices (wages) have been significantly depressed.
The good news is that in fact companies cannot discriminate against you simply on the basis of your age. Of course they can discriminate (lawfully) on the basis of so many other factors, that it is almost irrelevant. Nevertheless age alone cannot be used as a reason for refusal.
With age comes maturity, and for that reason perhaps there it is a less appealing prospect to invest large sums of money into very risky and speculative ventures. Buying "jobs" may seem appealing at 19 or 20 when you may be more blinkered to the reality of what is happening around you and there is still 45 years ahead of you and few immediate commitments other than those you seek to embrace in pursuit of this career. At 40 you are likely to already have many other commitments and a far more cautious approach to risk generally. The airlines that have not embarked on this "pay to fly" concept (and they are becoming fewer,) are still constrained by the wider economy, and would still source their potential candidates from those with experience and at age 40 many similar applicants would have plenty of that experience.
I can only concur with JB007 I'm afraid.
The novelty will wear off. As someone once warned me (which obviously I ignored) becoming a professional pilot ruins a good hobby. It does.
WWW
The novelty will wear off. As someone once warned me (which obviously I ignored) becoming a professional pilot ruins a good hobby. It does.
WWW
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Whirlygig - what a rediculous thing to say and how condescending.
Maybe you're speaking for yourself, but don't tie everyone else into it.
As for 'oldie going for it' - you should ask yourself why you would value the opinion of faceless strangers.
Pilots have got to where they are in a myriad of different ways with different challenges on the way.
One thing that's not up for debate is the state of the job market in the aviation industry.
Don't be a fool. Do some work. At least it will prove to Whirlygig that some 40 year olds are capable of conscious thought and, when pushed, can make a decision without commitee.
Maybe you're speaking for yourself, but don't tie everyone else into it.
As for 'oldie going for it' - you should ask yourself why you would value the opinion of faceless strangers.
Pilots have got to where they are in a myriad of different ways with different challenges on the way.
One thing that's not up for debate is the state of the job market in the aviation industry.
Don't be a fool. Do some work. At least it will prove to Whirlygig that some 40 year olds are capable of conscious thought and, when pushed, can make a decision without commitee.
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Read again the comments from JB007.
If you want the FATPL you will get it. I started the process around at 37 and have enjoyed reasonable employment fortune. (turbo props + jets for the last 5 yrs) However many of my peers were not quite so lucky and one or two never flew beyond their IR, due mainly financial reasons, not aptitude. There are a lot worse jobs out there (but none that you have to shell out so much money for), but a job it is and probably like your present occupation, it will often be routine. Be very sure and of course factor in the family/financial implications.
Having said that, I wish you the best of luck if you do go for it.
If you want the FATPL you will get it. I started the process around at 37 and have enjoyed reasonable employment fortune. (turbo props + jets for the last 5 yrs) However many of my peers were not quite so lucky and one or two never flew beyond their IR, due mainly financial reasons, not aptitude. There are a lot worse jobs out there (but none that you have to shell out so much money for), but a job it is and probably like your present occupation, it will often be routine. Be very sure and of course factor in the family/financial implications.
Having said that, I wish you the best of luck if you do go for it.
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I know people at 40 buying sports car for more than the amount it takes to get a cpl for whatever reasons love, passion for fast cars. Sports cars depreciates. You can atleast get a cfi and continue flying and see where it gets you if your are financially ok. This is just my take.
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Airlines don't have a policy about not hiring 40+. It is the market that stipulates this.
If there is a shortage of pilots then a 40+ is an option. If there is a surplus of pilots why should an airline hire a 40+ and get 20 some years of service, when a 20 something will give then 40 years of service. It's all about supply and demand.
Airlines do try to spread the age when it comes to hiring, since a few airlines have been punished when a large portion of the workforce retire at once. Happened, and is happening, at the moment. Currently, it is a blessing with the downturn but during an upturn then it is noticeable.
When I started training at my airline we had guys around 40 who were civilian (military is another story), so it's possible.
If there is a shortage of pilots then a 40+ is an option. If there is a surplus of pilots why should an airline hire a 40+ and get 20 some years of service, when a 20 something will give then 40 years of service. It's all about supply and demand.
Airlines do try to spread the age when it comes to hiring, since a few airlines have been punished when a large portion of the workforce retire at once. Happened, and is happening, at the moment. Currently, it is a blessing with the downturn but during an upturn then it is noticeable.
When I started training at my airline we had guys around 40 who were civilian (military is another story), so it's possible.
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jetzup - as you rightly point out, if your financial situation is very sound then by all means go for it.
I'm not sure of the price of a full time integrated FATPL course in the UK now (or are we talking modular); but I don't think you'd get much change out of 60,000GBP after fees and accommodation are paid for. Then (if integrated) being unwaged for 12 - ???.months after leaving a well paid job. Well that's a real nice car. Its big money to most people.
I'm not sure of the price of a full time integrated FATPL course in the UK now (or are we talking modular); but I don't think you'd get much change out of 60,000GBP after fees and accommodation are paid for. Then (if integrated) being unwaged for 12 - ???.months after leaving a well paid job. Well that's a real nice car. Its big money to most people.