What's wrong with being 40 when you start training?
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Training at 40
I was a mid-life career changer - trained aged about 35, first job turboprop FO at 38 and still there aged 40 so it can be done and indeed I know another guy who also went through OATS around the same time as me who got Jet2 at 37 ish. Since joining my outfit I have actually come across a now training Captain who was a TV repairman for 22 years, first commercial job aged 42 and he's now a line training Captain on the Dash 8 so that's probably a salary around £70k ish so you can do quite well even doing this later in life.
On the other hand I do think that it is harder to get a job at 40 than it is at 20 assuming similar grades/ability etc. For that reason unless you have significant private flying experience or are looking to get a job instructing etc I would strongly advocate integrated training if you are older to improve your employment prospects with airlines.
As a lot of people have said on here I really think a lot depends on how much financial pain you can take - I gross about £32-33k a year, in my last year IT contracting I made £119k, even in my permie IT career I wade roughly double what I earn now. It can be very frustrating not having very much money at this age and with no sign of the job market improving for a year or two yet there is simply little chance of advancement - in short I'm stuck on £33k until either people start leaving the company and I get command or until I get a job with a better paid employer.
Despite all that I am much happier overall than I was doing my old job. With two years commercial flying now I still love it much of the time. I'd say I still like it enough that if I won the lottery I'd carry on doing it (albeit on a part time basis) but it's not as great as a day off anymore (which is how I felt initially!)
Not sure if this helps or confuses, but wish you luck anyway and would be interested to know what you decide.
Desk-pilot
On the other hand I do think that it is harder to get a job at 40 than it is at 20 assuming similar grades/ability etc. For that reason unless you have significant private flying experience or are looking to get a job instructing etc I would strongly advocate integrated training if you are older to improve your employment prospects with airlines.
As a lot of people have said on here I really think a lot depends on how much financial pain you can take - I gross about £32-33k a year, in my last year IT contracting I made £119k, even in my permie IT career I wade roughly double what I earn now. It can be very frustrating not having very much money at this age and with no sign of the job market improving for a year or two yet there is simply little chance of advancement - in short I'm stuck on £33k until either people start leaving the company and I get command or until I get a job with a better paid employer.
Despite all that I am much happier overall than I was doing my old job. With two years commercial flying now I still love it much of the time. I'd say I still like it enough that if I won the lottery I'd carry on doing it (albeit on a part time basis) but it's not as great as a day off anymore (which is how I felt initially!)
Not sure if this helps or confuses, but wish you luck anyway and would be interested to know what you decide.
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On the other hand, I know plenty of guys I came through training with who were 19 or 20 and the passengers looked at them with surprise, and hesitation, that they were even old enough to be PIC. Pissed them off royally! Not that I blame them. One may be say 21 but have the face of a 15 year old, not that there's anything wrong with that, but passengers are gonna look twice. Heck, you'll love looking years younger when you get older. LOL!
Not saying this is right either. Just a fact. Your screwed either way. LOL! You either look too young or too old. Maybe its the 30 year olds that find peace and solice. LOL! JK!
Im a 40 year old Corporate FO. I started my career a little later as well. I also instruct. I get more feedback that people feel more comfortable training with me because Im older and therefor probably have more experience. Ive never gotten a look flying Coporate or Charter with my 3 stripes on that suggested no one trusted me because Im 39 or 40 and a health hazard. LOL!
Not saying this is right either. Just a fact. Your screwed either way. LOL! You either look too young or too old. Maybe its the 30 year olds that find peace and solice. LOL! JK!
Im a 40 year old Corporate FO. I started my career a little later as well. I also instruct. I get more feedback that people feel more comfortable training with me because Im older and therefor probably have more experience. Ive never gotten a look flying Coporate or Charter with my 3 stripes on that suggested no one trusted me because Im 39 or 40 and a health hazard. LOL!
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40 you are just a kid!
I learned to fly at 39. Now a training capt with the biggest airline in europe. In the last year I have flown with 3 ex policemen an ex dentist and a bank manager. As for the slow learning BS this is something youngsters wish is true. I will warn you though this may be the best job I have had but it is by far the worst industry I have worked in. Any glitch in the ecconomy and airlines go to the wall faster than any other business and in the current climate its not a good time young or old.
Good luck Rich
Good luck Rich
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We Are In The Same Plane, Flying The Same Way
God bless us all, go, go, go. I heard from my commercial pilot friends that its ok and 40 is still young. Am working, studying, building my house, doing ground school at home and have a wife with 3 kids to love and care for.
Am 37 and with god's grace will go anywhere next February to get my CPL with whatever rating I can afford on USD20K. The rest is also in god's hands again. When I return from my training, will resume my work while doing the most with whatever I have aquired during my flying voyage. Should I get a flying job, amen
I will not think twice but fly the rest of my life.I always wanted to be a pilot, since age 3. I attended ground school at 14 and did my 1st solo at 17. With no money and no sponsers, I stopped because I had to live and took any job that puts food on the table. For 20 long years I saved and saved and saved and saved, looking up to the sky each time an aircraft passed, till now...
Please keep in touch & god bless each & every one of you out there, amen
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From someone that started out mid 30's here are some things to consider......
You mentioned "airlines" in your opening post. I don't know if your ambition is to join the big boys or be happy at a smaller outfit.
As you are 40 and have roughly 2-3 years of training ahead of you then you will be finished at approximately 43. Assuming you secure a job straight off then you need to carefully consider what options in terms of a career are available for you should your ambition be to sit in the LHS of a commercial aircraft.
The larger airlines would have a time to command in excess of 10 years. Many are running at 15-20 years plus. As I am sure you are aware the likes of BA, Virgin, BMI, Aer Lingus all reportedly have excess pilots. Some will no doubt be let go in the near future. When these companies hire again the furloughed pilots are usually the first recalled. During this time the time to command invariably "maxes" out although its a moot point as they are not hiring in anycase.
So the big boys really aren't that much of an option to you in my opinion unless you wanted to be a career f/o. And to get into the big outfits you need hours on type which can only be gained from getting a start somewhere else unless you were going to go to Oxford on the integrated route and hope to be picked up by someone like BA straight out of school. The chances of this are so remote (for any student) that I wouldn't be putting the house on it.
So that leaves the next tier of operators. The low cost and charters. The largest hirer of low time pilots is a well known low cost carrier that I am guessing RichT is a training captain at. At the moment they are recruiting at a much lower level than they have historically. On top of your initial training costs you will need to write a large cheque for your type rating and be available to work at any of their bases. You will likely be employed on a contract and paid by the block hour. The amount you earn is dependant on the hours you fly and as has been well documented many pilots are seeing a significant drop in annual flying hours and hence income.
As to the charters companies, well most notably CTC has provided a large number of low houred pilots over the years. Their holding pools are full of freshly qualified people that have jumped through numerous hoops to sit waiting for a start. The holding pools are growing by the week as no one is hiring to any significant extent. The "newish" trend to employ pilots on summer only contracts and then release them back to the hold pools is a disturbing trend altogether.
Next on your list are the regional operators including the turbo props eg: Flybe, Southwest, Aer Arran etc. This I think is your best chance. Time to command can be relatively short (say 3-5 years) when the market picks up as "generally" many of the younger pilots will seek a move onto jets creating spaces. Your age can be an advantage with these operators as you may be seen as someone they can rely on to hang around given your maturity and possibly family commitments etc.
Additionally there are the biz jet operators, freight and other niche operators such as air taxi and medivac flights. Many of these jobs go unadvertised and selection is through word of mouth recommendations so networking will be important.
All in all there are so many ifs and buts to consider but at the end of the day the only person holding you back is yourself. If you go into it with eyes wide open and adjust your goals accordingly then you can make a career out of it. But do research in detail the terms and conditions that you are likely to earn as the return on investment can be quite poor.
You mentioned "airlines" in your opening post. I don't know if your ambition is to join the big boys or be happy at a smaller outfit.
As you are 40 and have roughly 2-3 years of training ahead of you then you will be finished at approximately 43. Assuming you secure a job straight off then you need to carefully consider what options in terms of a career are available for you should your ambition be to sit in the LHS of a commercial aircraft.
The larger airlines would have a time to command in excess of 10 years. Many are running at 15-20 years plus. As I am sure you are aware the likes of BA, Virgin, BMI, Aer Lingus all reportedly have excess pilots. Some will no doubt be let go in the near future. When these companies hire again the furloughed pilots are usually the first recalled. During this time the time to command invariably "maxes" out although its a moot point as they are not hiring in anycase.
So the big boys really aren't that much of an option to you in my opinion unless you wanted to be a career f/o. And to get into the big outfits you need hours on type which can only be gained from getting a start somewhere else unless you were going to go to Oxford on the integrated route and hope to be picked up by someone like BA straight out of school. The chances of this are so remote (for any student) that I wouldn't be putting the house on it.
So that leaves the next tier of operators. The low cost and charters. The largest hirer of low time pilots is a well known low cost carrier that I am guessing RichT is a training captain at. At the moment they are recruiting at a much lower level than they have historically. On top of your initial training costs you will need to write a large cheque for your type rating and be available to work at any of their bases. You will likely be employed on a contract and paid by the block hour. The amount you earn is dependant on the hours you fly and as has been well documented many pilots are seeing a significant drop in annual flying hours and hence income.
As to the charters companies, well most notably CTC has provided a large number of low houred pilots over the years. Their holding pools are full of freshly qualified people that have jumped through numerous hoops to sit waiting for a start. The holding pools are growing by the week as no one is hiring to any significant extent. The "newish" trend to employ pilots on summer only contracts and then release them back to the hold pools is a disturbing trend altogether.
Next on your list are the regional operators including the turbo props eg: Flybe, Southwest, Aer Arran etc. This I think is your best chance. Time to command can be relatively short (say 3-5 years) when the market picks up as "generally" many of the younger pilots will seek a move onto jets creating spaces. Your age can be an advantage with these operators as you may be seen as someone they can rely on to hang around given your maturity and possibly family commitments etc.
Additionally there are the biz jet operators, freight and other niche operators such as air taxi and medivac flights. Many of these jobs go unadvertised and selection is through word of mouth recommendations so networking will be important.
All in all there are so many ifs and buts to consider but at the end of the day the only person holding you back is yourself. If you go into it with eyes wide open and adjust your goals accordingly then you can make a career out of it. But do research in detail the terms and conditions that you are likely to earn as the return on investment can be quite poor.
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$$$$ if you have enough then you will be fine no matter what the age. Reality is that at 40 you can kiss a jet job goodby, despite what the newbies that have never made it say. 
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Thank you for all of your replies - and thanks, in advance, for any more discussion yet to come...
I am currently a maths teacher, so salary differences with newly hired low-hours FO's are negligible; i.e. I won’t lose out too much financially. I aim to work on the ‘supply-teacher-circuit’ throughout my flight training to keep a few pennies coming in on non-flying days. Further, even though times in aviation are hard, I decided to get moving a.s.a.p..
Bellyair, you disappoint me with your comments. I am more than capable of making my own decisions and have made a decision without the ‘committee’ you refer to. Look at my initial post.
Did I ask if I should or shouldn’t train? No, I didn’t.
Did I ask for help in deciding? No, I didn’t?
Did I ask for encouragement? No, I didn’t?
I asked why there appears to be an issue in hiring a 40 year-old, and also for guidance on getting through the next few years - not whether I should go through the next few years. I hope you pay more attention to actual matters at hand when you’re flying ...otherwise you could be a danger.
As for everyone else – great discussion; thanks
Oldie
I am currently a maths teacher, so salary differences with newly hired low-hours FO's are negligible; i.e. I won’t lose out too much financially. I aim to work on the ‘supply-teacher-circuit’ throughout my flight training to keep a few pennies coming in on non-flying days. Further, even though times in aviation are hard, I decided to get moving a.s.a.p..
Bellyair, you disappoint me with your comments. I am more than capable of making my own decisions and have made a decision without the ‘committee’ you refer to. Look at my initial post.
Did I ask if I should or shouldn’t train? No, I didn’t.
Did I ask for help in deciding? No, I didn’t?
Did I ask for encouragement? No, I didn’t?
I asked why there appears to be an issue in hiring a 40 year-old, and also for guidance on getting through the next few years - not whether I should go through the next few years. I hope you pay more attention to actual matters at hand when you’re flying ...otherwise you could be a danger.
As for everyone else – great discussion; thanks
Oldie
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I hope you pay more attention to actual matters at hand when you’re flying ...otherwise you could be a danger.
In any event, I think JB007, potkettleblack and Bealzebub have illustrated the point quite well.
Good luck to you though, you're gonna need f
in' bags of it given the state of the industry and future outlook.
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Bit strong there, considering you haven't flown yet...
I guess many PPRuNe-ers are fed up with the ‘age-old debate’ - so the mere mention of 'training as an oldie' probably incites such knee-jerk reactions, even though the actual topic is somewhat different. I guess I can live with that!
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Interesting thread! By coincidence I was at TAG Farnborough today and got chatting to the first officer on the biz-jet which was reason for my presence there. I said my mad plan was to to do my ME CPL/IR on retirement aged 51 (assuming fit & healthy) with the long shot hope of maybe a RHS on a TP or if not, I'd still be happy as Larry doing some instructing. As a previous poster mentioned, I would be a 25 year PPL holder with probably over 1000 hours.
His view was that it wasn't so mad, he'd known of several do it at that age.
Obviously I'd have a police pension, so I wouldn't really need to earn any money, which the more I read on here will probably be fortunate.
His view was that it wasn't so mad, he'd known of several do it at that age.
Obviously I'd have a police pension, so I wouldn't really need to earn any money, which the more I read on here will probably be fortunate.
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Good luck to you OGFI...just be aware, the stories on this thread of 40+ guys changing career and succeeding, haven't achieved this in the present industry climate...
I don't know where you are with your PPL, but I certainly wouldn't commit to professional training/financial deposit until this winter is behind us!
I don't know where you are with your PPL, but I certainly wouldn't commit to professional training/financial deposit until this winter is behind us!
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Well, it worked for me.....
Hi all,
About 10 years ago I was in the same position - 39 years old, looking for a career change to fly, etc, etc. and was the ripe ole age of 41 by the time I had my Froz ATPL...... and was there a queue of airlines at my door?? No way !!!
But I stuck with it, did the FI thing for a while and eventually got a part time job on a Cheiftain....
Now I have the best job on the world - LHS in a nice shiny biz-jet.
Did my age make any difference?
In training - definately not & in many ways it was an advantage as I had considerably more 'worldy knowledge' than the very young guys
In interviews - Airlines just wern't intereted as my 'experience was not appropreate for my age' (yep - good old illegal agism !) - They wanted the early 20's guys...
In part time taxi work (in a cheiftain) and as an FI my age was seen as an advantage - Customers assume (often wrongly !) that a 40's pilot has more skill and experience than a 20's pilot
In my present job, the same applies - the customers like to see the grey hairs of experience sat up front - it makes then feel more secure....
Overall, the only disadvantage I found is that most major airlines want young guys - perhaps because they are more easily manipulated by the management?
Advantages ? Many - you have a better idea of what the world is about and the customers / passengers believe you have more experience (and therefore abillity) and feel safer with a mature pilot.
Having said all that, the way things are right now, nobody is getting work regardless of age...... but who knows - in a year or two we could all be fighting potential employers off with sticks....
About 10 years ago I was in the same position - 39 years old, looking for a career change to fly, etc, etc. and was the ripe ole age of 41 by the time I had my Froz ATPL...... and was there a queue of airlines at my door?? No
way !!!But I stuck with it, did the FI thing for a while and eventually got a part time job on a Cheiftain....
Now I have the best job on the world - LHS in a nice shiny biz-jet.
Did my age make any difference?
In training - definately not & in many ways it was an advantage as I had considerably more 'worldy knowledge' than the very young guys
In interviews - Airlines just wern't intereted as my 'experience was not appropreate for my age' (yep - good old illegal agism !) - They wanted the early 20's guys...
In part time taxi work (in a cheiftain) and as an FI my age was seen as an advantage - Customers assume (often wrongly !) that a 40's pilot has more skill and experience than a 20's pilot
In my present job, the same applies - the customers like to see the grey hairs of experience sat up front - it makes then feel more secure....
Overall, the only disadvantage I found is that most major airlines want young guys - perhaps because they are more easily manipulated by the management?
Advantages ? Many - you have a better idea of what the world is about and the customers / passengers believe you have more experience (and therefore abillity) and feel safer with a mature pilot.
Having said all that, the way things are right now, nobody is getting work regardless of age...... but who knows - in a year or two we could all be fighting potential employers off with sticks....
Last edited by Ian the Aviator; 16th Jul 2009 at 12:05. Reason: add detail
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Another mid life career changer. Started training aged 35, finished aged 39, first job flying a medium jet for a low cost airline aged 40. It is possible, but if my experience is anything to go by you have to be supremely flexible. I sensed that ageism seems to be more of a problem on the continent than in the UK or outside of Europe.
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It's not just me then ! I'm starting at 36 from a "career" in IT (although not quite with Desk-pilot's salary) which holds no interest for me any more. I'd be quite happy at the pointy end of a twin prop taxi even if it was low-paid, etc. It's taken a while to find out what I want to do with life but sitting in an office all day is certainly not it.
Good luck to everyone else and thanks for starting this thread
Good luck to everyone else and thanks for starting this thread
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What's wrong with being 40 when you start training?
Good luck!
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I'd be quite happy at the pointy end of a twin prop taxi even if it was low-paid, etc.
I'd question your decision making...I say again, you WILL want to work to live, not the other way round...anyone above 40 years of age starting out now is taking a huge risk...
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Ex-frontline military pilot, 4-figure number of hours, first attempt good passes at all ground and flying tests for fATPL, 30ish, applied to virtually every aircraft operator on Earth including 'twin prop taxi' since qualifying about a year ago.
Number of interviews in that time? Go on guess. Let's just say it's less than 2.
Those that say they'd be happy to settle for air taxi work / instructing / ferrying etc etc, don't seem to realise that the jobs market is totally f**ked (sorry, I mean flooded) all the way from Senior Captains on heavies all the way down to glider tug pilots who work for nothing. Hell, I've had to spend the last few months working in a coffee shop to scrape by and even there we've been getting about 100 applications for each position that comes up (and I'm only there because the temping agencies have more regulars already on their books than vacancies).
Good time to embark on a career change? Errr, no.
Number of interviews in that time? Go on guess. Let's just say it's less than 2.
Those that say they'd be happy to settle for air taxi work / instructing / ferrying etc etc, don't seem to realise that the jobs market is totally f**ked (sorry, I mean flooded) all the way from Senior Captains on heavies all the way down to glider tug pilots who work for nothing. Hell, I've had to spend the last few months working in a coffee shop to scrape by and even there we've been getting about 100 applications for each position that comes up (and I'm only there because the temping agencies have more regulars already on their books than vacancies).
Good time to embark on a career change? Errr, no.
Last edited by Torque Tonight; 16th Jul 2009 at 17:53.
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Got to agree with JB007. Was offered an interview last year for one of the so called 'twin prop air taxi/medical type.....jobs that some refer to. Guess what....12k(GBP) annual salary!!! Anyone who says they'll be happy to do that kind of work after leaving a decent career needs a serious wake up call. They pay more flipping burgers in Macdonalds!
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Hi all,
New hear myself and it seems I am in a similar boat so rather than repeat things in a new post...
I am 36 now but unfortunately due to personal financial reasons, I haven't the funds to even start my PPL(A) until I am 40!
When I do start though there is no limit on how fast I can get through ALL my courses other than I have chosen to go down the modular route to obtaining everything course wise leading to an ATPL(F).
I am currently a serving officer of the police (8 yrs). I will not give up my current job until I have secured a position as a flying career.
I am however willing to start off in either private jets or turboprops etc and if I was later able to get into the bigger airliners then that would be a bonus. As already mentioned by a few of you, it is an expensive investment but if I saw EVERYONE on every forum saying NO...IT'S 100% IMPOSSIBLE TO BE TAKEN ON BY ANYONE BETWEEN MID 40's & 50 then I wouldn't even be on here but I am finding glimmers of hope so continual comments and thoughts please .........
by the way... I never got any C or above passes when I was in school in my GCSE's so I am currently doing maths & english GCSE home study... is this ok or do you think I should look at adding any other subjects ?
Many Thanks in advance
New hear myself and it seems I am in a similar boat so rather than repeat things in a new post...
I am 36 now but unfortunately due to personal financial reasons, I haven't the funds to even start my PPL(A) until I am 40!
When I do start though there is no limit on how fast I can get through ALL my courses other than I have chosen to go down the modular route to obtaining everything course wise leading to an ATPL(F).
I am currently a serving officer of the police (8 yrs). I will not give up my current job until I have secured a position as a flying career.
I am however willing to start off in either private jets or turboprops etc and if I was later able to get into the bigger airliners then that would be a bonus. As already mentioned by a few of you, it is an expensive investment but if I saw EVERYONE on every forum saying NO...IT'S 100% IMPOSSIBLE TO BE TAKEN ON BY ANYONE BETWEEN MID 40's & 50 then I wouldn't even be on here but I am finding glimmers of hope so continual comments and thoughts please .........
by the way... I never got any C or above passes when I was in school in my GCSE's so I am currently doing maths & english GCSE home study... is this ok or do you think I should look at adding any other subjects ?
Many Thanks in advance