Petition for Student status for british trainee professional pilots.
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Petition for Student status for british trainee professional pilots.
Petition here...
Hey chaps,
Found this petition and thought it would be good to get as many names as possible onto the list. It would provide a solid base for us wannabes if it was approved, so the more names the better.
Obviously this is for British nationals wanting this to be approved.
If this is in the wrong forum section please feel free to move it.
Thanks, and spread the word!
1mag
Hey chaps,
Found this petition and thought it would be good to get as many names as possible onto the list. It would provide a solid base for us wannabes if it was approved, so the more names the better.
Obviously this is for British nationals wanting this to be approved.
If this is in the wrong forum section please feel free to move it.
Thanks, and spread the word!
1mag
Join Date: Jan 2008
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It's been described as a lost cause especially considering the most popular petition is entitled rather simply "resign"! Nonetheless I have signed up in the hope that other's will follow suit. I've also sent the link to everyone on my Facebook and everyone in my e-mail address list, begging all of my friends to sign it!
Hovering AND talking
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Oh dear - where shall I start? This has been so badly thought out and argued, I can guarantee it won't get a look-in with Number 10.
If the demand for professional pilots is that high, then why does the creator state that there is no guarantee of a job? If the demand is increasing exponentially (does the creator even know what that means?), then why wouldn't the airlines be funding training. If the individuals have that amount for talent, why don't they join the Government-funded flying scheme called the Armed Forces?
Many professions such as accountancy and law train their own students, not have the state do it unless, of course, it's a state funded profession such as medicine.
How would this student status work with those doing modular training and working at the same time?
The only points that I can see that are valid on the petition are the inequalities in tax relief on training and VAT charged.
So, if anyone else plans to start another petition (and I'm sure this subject has been done a few times), please think it through and make it sound as those the voters would agree with you?
Cheers
Whirls
Air travel is becoming ever more important and the demand for professional pilots is increasing exponentially yet training costs are massive (£35,000 - £100,000), finance is of personal responsibility and qualification offers no guarantee of employment. Therefore many ambitious and talented individuals are hindered or even prohibited from flying careers.
Many professions such as accountancy and law train their own students, not have the state do it unless, of course, it's a state funded profession such as medicine.
How would this student status work with those doing modular training and working at the same time?
The only points that I can see that are valid on the petition are the inequalities in tax relief on training and VAT charged.
So, if anyone else plans to start another petition (and I'm sure this subject has been done a few times), please think it through and make it sound as those the voters would agree with you?
Cheers
Whirls
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Not exactly on topic, but back in the late 20th/early 21st century I managed to convince the local council to discount my council tax because of my student status. I got a letter from the FTO and sent it in, job done. Mightn't work any more but try anyway, only costs a stamp.
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http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ee-pilots.html
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/3641...nt-pilots.html
And even back in 2007:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ee-pilots.html
I couldnt even get a 25% student discount on my council tax even after an appeal, although others have managed with different councils.
http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/3641...nt-pilots.html
And even back in 2007:
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...ee-pilots.html
I couldnt even get a 25% student discount on my council tax even after an appeal, although others have managed with different councils.
Hovering AND talking
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My accountancy training was fully funded by my company and that company and the rest of the Big Four still do the same. Mind you, if you fail an exam, you're sacked.
I do know of what I speak.
Cheers
Whirls
I do know of what I speak.
Cheers
Whirls
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There is a difference between becoming an accountant and lawyer and a commercial pilot.
Entry requirements into the former are somewhat stricter (good graduate) than those for becoming a pilot. All you need to become a pilot is money.
Entry requirements into the former are somewhat stricter (good graduate) than those for becoming a pilot. All you need to become a pilot is money.
Hovering AND talking
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But if the airline business were to adopt the same philosophy of training its own replacement staff, then I'm sure their entry requirements would be similarly stringent.
However, supply and demand means that airlines don't have to as there are enough people who can afford to train as a pilot (by whatever method or financial means) and will pay for their own training. Governments are unlikely to change the rules unless they think it's a vote winner. It's probably not a popular one with the "Man on the Clapham Omnibus" as any trainee pilot is seen as over-privileged anyway.
Cheers
Whirls
However, supply and demand means that airlines don't have to as there are enough people who can afford to train as a pilot (by whatever method or financial means) and will pay for their own training. Governments are unlikely to change the rules unless they think it's a vote winner. It's probably not a popular one with the "Man on the Clapham Omnibus" as any trainee pilot is seen as over-privileged anyway.
Cheers
Whirls
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Well good luck, but has the author actually seen what is happening?
There are many hundreds of wannabes falling over themselves to pay tens of thousands of pounds for the aerial equivalent of vanity publishing. There is no shortage, in fact quite the reverse. There is a large surplus of experienced pilots. This surplus is borne out of three major factors: The first is the weakness in the overall global economic cycle; The second is the fact that legislation has now extended the working life of a professional pilot by up to 10 years; The third is that the job that used to exist in the right hand seat is being suppressed by a growing demand from people who are willing to pay to sit there.
Given that there is no shortage whatsover, and an abundant supply of applicants, where is the imperative for the tax payer to provide concessions to these petionists?
There are many hundreds of wannabes falling over themselves to pay tens of thousands of pounds for the aerial equivalent of vanity publishing. There is no shortage, in fact quite the reverse. There is a large surplus of experienced pilots. This surplus is borne out of three major factors: The first is the weakness in the overall global economic cycle; The second is the fact that legislation has now extended the working life of a professional pilot by up to 10 years; The third is that the job that used to exist in the right hand seat is being suppressed by a growing demand from people who are willing to pay to sit there.
Given that there is no shortage whatsover, and an abundant supply of applicants, where is the imperative for the tax payer to provide concessions to these petionists?
Hovering AND talking
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I was, CharlieG, but my funding was cut by the Government of the time so I sold out to the red braces and shoulder pads brigade
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Whirlygig
I agree the petition is not well argued - whoever drafted it clearly isn't adept at such things and would have benefited from specialist help.
I've signed it because I support the objective.
I doubt if it will be successful, but don't regard that as a reason for not showing support.
What percentage of trainee accountants have their training financed by accountancy firms?
Do the firms which offer sponsorship finance all stages of training?
Lawyers?
Some solicitors firms sponsor part of the training costs. I'm not certain, but I don't think many (if any?) sponsorships include the three years at university before professional training begins.
The Bar gives financial help in the final (5th) year but not, as far as I'm aware, before that.
Apart from a few scholarships, there was no financial help available 'in my day' but thinking has changed since then (early 70s). It is no longer regarded as acceptable that someone should be prevented from becoming a barrister because their family can't afford to finance them, or because they would find it impossible to raise the necessary funds, so the Bar does as much as it reasonably can to help.
I agree the petition is not well argued - whoever drafted it clearly isn't adept at such things and would have benefited from specialist help.
I've signed it because I support the objective.
I doubt if it will be successful, but don't regard that as a reason for not showing support.
Many professions such as accountancy and law train their own students
What percentage of trainee accountants have their training financed by accountancy firms?
Do the firms which offer sponsorship finance all stages of training?
Lawyers?
Some solicitors firms sponsor part of the training costs. I'm not certain, but I don't think many (if any?) sponsorships include the three years at university before professional training begins.
The Bar gives financial help in the final (5th) year but not, as far as I'm aware, before that.
Apart from a few scholarships, there was no financial help available 'in my day' but thinking has changed since then (early 70s). It is no longer regarded as acceptable that someone should be prevented from becoming a barrister because their family can't afford to finance them, or because they would find it impossible to raise the necessary funds, so the Bar does as much as it reasonably can to help.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 12th Jun 2009 at 19:57.
Hovering AND talking
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FL, I've been out of the profession for a few years but, certainly up to the year 2000 and I guess the system hasn't changed, ALL firms of Chartered Accountants who were authorised for student training paid for all the training.
The deal is usually a low salary, all study time as paid leave, exams, books, membership subs and courses paid for. However, if you failed any exams and you were lucky enough to keep your job, you would mostly likely have to pay for the resit yourself. It is impossible to qualify without the support of a training firm as they have to sign off your experience requirements.
The three/four years entails a full-time job with block release courses of a few weeks several times a year plus progress tests. And, up until a few years ago, you had to pass all exams in one go; fail one and resit them all. Them's were tough times.
We did not have student status so no cut-price gig tickets or bank charges. If you failed exams ( as I did one year but was not sacked) and paid for the resit yourself, the cost of these was NOT available for income tax relief and VAT was also charged.
However, the nature of the training is quite different to that of a pilot. In most cases, a degree is required. The subject of that degree doesn't really matter although preference is given for maths and sciences; not, you might think, accountancy and business finance subjects. How that degree was funded has varied over the years.
We have no requirement for equipment other than a calculator.
If the tax and VAT on aviation training were exempted, there would be no need for "student status" and modular students could benefit in the same way as integrated.
Cheers
Whirls
The deal is usually a low salary, all study time as paid leave, exams, books, membership subs and courses paid for. However, if you failed any exams and you were lucky enough to keep your job, you would mostly likely have to pay for the resit yourself. It is impossible to qualify without the support of a training firm as they have to sign off your experience requirements.
The three/four years entails a full-time job with block release courses of a few weeks several times a year plus progress tests. And, up until a few years ago, you had to pass all exams in one go; fail one and resit them all. Them's were tough times.
We did not have student status so no cut-price gig tickets or bank charges. If you failed exams ( as I did one year but was not sacked) and paid for the resit yourself, the cost of these was NOT available for income tax relief and VAT was also charged.
However, the nature of the training is quite different to that of a pilot. In most cases, a degree is required. The subject of that degree doesn't really matter although preference is given for maths and sciences; not, you might think, accountancy and business finance subjects. How that degree was funded has varied over the years.
We have no requirement for equipment other than a calculator.
If the tax and VAT on aviation training were exempted, there would be no need for "student status" and modular students could benefit in the same way as integrated.
Cheers
Whirls
Hovering AND talking
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Touche Ross as it was called then; now Deloitte Touche. Qualified with them and then moved to a small firm in rural Berkshire in order to get my practising certificate. Why?
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
When I trained back in late 90's, early 00's, we had the benefit of the Career Development Loans and also the reduction of VAT. 17.5% off all training costs I think. (Can't remember what it was called now. ) More if you were a higher rate tax payer. I was hour building in an R22 for £104/hr. Now why can't the government just allow this sort of thing again.
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Whirlygig has hit the nail on the head - the focus should really be on getting the VAT back, as per Helimutt's day (especially if the rate increases beyond17.5% when it changes from the current 15%).
PS - all reputable accountancy firms still pay all training costs (and it's just Deloitte now!), but as has already been pointed out, that only reflects the different industry demand/supply dynamics...
PS - all reputable accountancy firms still pay all training costs (and it's just Deloitte now!), but as has already been pointed out, that only reflects the different industry demand/supply dynamics...
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Accountancy
Going slightly off topic, but
For what its worth - its not just "accountancy" firms that pay for Accountancy training costs either...
...most "commercial" companies will sponsor their employees through the accountancy exams if that is the route they are following - usually with a bond of some sort!
For what its worth - its not just "accountancy" firms that pay for Accountancy training costs either...
...most "commercial" companies will sponsor their employees through the accountancy exams if that is the route they are following - usually with a bond of some sort!