FAA training in UK? PPL/CPL/IR/ME

[Skysurfer66]

Hi folks,

For my sins, I have just bought myself an N registered aircraft in the UK. I live in Hampshire, and was wondering if anyone could point me towards any UK establishments that I could convert my (lapsed) licence, to either an FAA commerical, or maybe just an FAA PPL, IR ME?

Any pointers gratefully received. I may look at going Stateside to do everything, but it would be great to be able to get it all done here, and not have issues with getting leave etc.

Thanks in advance,
Matt

[sapperkenno]

Matt, I sent you a PM... but I'd like to add to that here in hopes it might be of some use to others.

You can piggyback an FAA Pilot certificate onto a valid UK JAA license. The process has been discussed on here before, but basically, you get an FAA certificate based on your UK one (very simple process involving only paperwork, no tests etc... but paying the CAA for the privilege of having them release your info to the FAA who don't charge you anything), and as long as you're UK one is valid (with medical, class ratings etc), so is your FAA one.

I don't know what JAA qualifications you have, so if you can enlighten me/us it may help answer your question better. If you were going down the FAA Commercial route, you could get this issued as a standalone certificate and not need to do an FAA private too, and this would negate any reason to get your JAA stuff current again as it would be a pure FAA certificate.

So, either get your JAA stuff in order if it's lapsed, and apply for a "based on" FAA certificate (bearing in mind it's only valid as long as your UK one is), or forget about that nonsense completely and just get an FAA Commercial Multi-Engine with Instrument.

Then, any CFI/II (w/MEI) can instruct you in your N-reg and get you up to speed on the subtle differences involved with the FAA training standards, and ensure you meet the necessary requirements and get the relevant endorsements in order to take a check-ride with a DPE somewhere.

If you've already got the N-reg, forget about the CAA (and associated hassle and costs) completely and go FAA all the way.

[Skysurfer66]

Lewis, many thanks for the taking the time to reply. I have sent you a PM with a whole bunch more in it ;o)

I'll put more on the forum in a bit for the benefit of everyone else.
M.

[moona]

I've been looking into this recently too, here the ones I have found.

UK FAA flight training
Eagle Flight Training - Flight Training at London Luton Airport
FAA Pilot Flight Training in the UK - Retford (Gamston) Airport
FAA Training - Courses Bonus Aviation Limited
FAA - Solo Flying School Humberside Airport JAA FAA
Willow Air Flying Club - Southend Airport, Essex UK

I've decided to go with Eagleflight as the rates are very competitive. The issue with doing the training in the uk seems to be the flight test. There is a uk based examiner but his prices are very steep (same as JAA). Other option is to wait for US examiner to come over which happens from time to time.

I would be very interested to hear if you find any others.

[Skysurfer66]

Hi Moona,

Many thanks for the reply, and for the links, they are very useful. I too have heard differing things about UK based FAA examiners, from:
1 none in the UK, but there is one in Spain
2 none in the UK, you have to go the the States for the flight test
3 there may be an examiner based at Thruxton.

Whilst there are several places who can train you in an FAA aircraft for your FAA licence, (subject to jumping through several hoops where necessary with DFT), can anyone shed any conclusive light on whether there are any UK based examiners?

Cheers,
M.

[122.85]

Hi Mooona

Are you sure Eagleflight is at Luton as when I was looking for PPL training last year and spoke to them they told me they were now in Cambridge and you may want to check prices as the website says it was last updated in 2005. However I did find them helpful when I spoke to them but Cambridge was just to far for me to travel.

Cheers
Matt

[moona]

Hi Matt,

As I understand it they still have have offices at Luton but now fly from Fowlmere, Cambridge or North Weald. The prices were still correct when I spoke to them but this was a few months ago now.

[moona]

Here's the website for the UK/France based examiner: Terms & Conditions doesn't seem to have the prices anymore but I recall them being about £700 (could be wrong)

I'm currently aiming to get my FAA IR completely in the Uk. Seems to be a very rocky path though. All the schools seem to say different things (normally in their favour). Some say all training must be done in N Reg aircraft. Others say all training must be from a CFII, some say only last 15 hours, some say only last 3 hours.

Some say I have to write off my imcr hours, others say they count. Luckily my imcr instructor was a full JAA IR holder so I'm quite sure they count.

Has anyone else out there gone through the IMCR -> FAA IR -> JAA IR conversion route. I know it has traditionally been frowned upon but during the current downturn anything that can potentially save £1000's has got to be worth considering?

[AlphaMale]

Has anyone else out there gone through the IMCR -> FAA IR -> JAA IR conversion route.

Possibly looking to do this myself.

IMC = 15hrs (Same local school as PPL)

FAA IR = 25hrs (According to 14 CFR 61.65(d) )

FAA IR > JAA IR conversion = 15hrs

This should break down the IFR qualifications nicely. Although it's probably more work and might cost the same when you consider these are minimum hours.

[B2N2]

IMC = 15hrs (Same local school as PPL)

FAA IR = 25hrs (According to 14 CFR 61.65(d) )

61.65 states :

(1) At least 50 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command, of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes for an instrument—airplane rating; and

(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time on the areas of operation of this section, to include—

(i) At least 15 hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in the aircraft category for which the instrument rating is sought;

****************deleted*******************************

700 Pounds pays for an airline ticket and a check ride in the US.
Any reason as to why not to do the IR training in the good ol' US of A?

[malc4d]

Oh and dont forget that any training for a FAA ticket pivate, multi, instrument and type ratings need you to jump through the TSA ****,. only thing you save doing it in Europe (or else where ) is that you dont need a visa.....!
But you miss out on some great flying destinations and times.

[421C]

So unless you do the IMC rating with a dual rated Instructor (FAA & JAA)
it's 40 hrs and not 25.

No it's not. The 40hrs are any instrument time with any kind of instructor, or solo, or simulated-instrument time logged with a non-instructor safety-pilot.

So the "conceivable minimum" is 15hrs IMC training, 22hrs instrument time post-IMC (actual solo or simulated, wearing foggles with a safety pilot) and 3hrs with an FAA IR instructor. The IMC training counts towards the 15hrs as long as the instructor was an IR instructor (although sometimes interpretations differ). It's not even clear that the 3hrs has to be with an FAA CFII, olny sufficient time for you to be signed-off for a checkride, although it's difficult to imagine anyone signing a pilot off with less than 3hrs.

[AlphaMale]

This is where I get confused, some people telling me the IMC will entitle me to a shorter FAA IR course and then others like B2N2 (FAA FI) telling me it counts for nothing.

If the IMC won't make the FAA IR cheaper/shorter then I might not bother with it and do the FAA IR sooner than I thought (If I'm lucky enough to get that much time off work).

Maybe I'll start phoning a few schools closer to the date.

[B2N2]

Alpha, I wasn't clear enough.
421C is right, for the majority at least.
The 15 hrs IMC count regardless.
The FAA recognizes training given by an Instructor from an ICAO memberstate.
So that leaves 25 hrs.
Out of these 25hrs at least 15 need to be done by an FAA certificated instructor or dual rated instructor.

[421C]

B2N2

Alpha, I wasn't clear enough.
421C is right, for the majority at least.
The 15 hrs IMC count regardless.
The FAA recognizes training given by an Instructor from an ICAO memberstate.
So that leaves 25 hrs.
Out of these 25hrs at least 15 need to be done by an FAA certificated instructor or dual rated instructor.

Sorry but this is still either not clear or wrong.

The FAA IR requires
- 40hrs instrument time simulated or actual.
Anything can count towards this as long as it is legal instrument flight (eg. solo in actual IMC if rated, or with foggles and a safety pilot)
- of those 40, 15hrs have to be with an authorised instructor

As you said, "the FAA recognizes training given by an Instructor from an ICAO memberstate" but this recogntion applies to the 15hrs required with an instructor - not the 25hrs that can be non-instructional

The only debate is whether IMCr instruction counts towards the 15hrs. Of course it counts towards the total 40hrs - flying solo with an IMC rating in instrument conditions counts towards that! The most convincing answer I have seen on that is that IMCr training counts if conducted by an IR holding instructor (and I mean counts towards the 15hrs).

brgds,
421C

[Shunter]

It all counts. I had an IMC rating and 50+ hours by sole ref to instruments. All of it was valid towards the FAA IR. I had this confirmed in writing by the FAA in advance in order to prevent any "hiccups".

If getting the FAA IR, make sure you read up on the prerequisites. They are different to those in JAA-land and if you show up for the test without your logbook in order it's a no-go. Also, unlike JAA-land where 95% of the exam content can be core-dumped as soon as you leave the exam room, the FAA test has a very taxing oral exam to complete before you even get in the aircraft so you need to be sharp on the relevant theory stuff on test day.

If you're seriously current on instruments in the UK environment and plan it with sufficient precision it can save you a decent chunk of money to use the FAA IR as a stepping stone. If you're not, it can quite easily cost you far more than just biting the bullet and doing the JAA IR in the first place.

[Skysurfer66]

Hi folks,

Paid for my aircraft yesterday! Am an aircraft owner at last... WOOHOO!!! Now I just need to get the props rebuilt (timex'd), get an annual and I can get the aircraft airworthy. Awesome,... now just need to get myself airworthy!

As mentioned earlier, I am probably going to need to do the FAA training here in the UK, I am self employed, so any time I take off is hitting me in the pocket (although I would dearly love to travel to the States and see a bit of the world!)

Therefore, I am going to look at doing it all, or as much as possible in the UK. I believe that there are books with loads of FAA CPL questions and answers in them which are the way to study for the FAA CPL (I believe!). If so, is this book/question bank available for sale in the UK, or how can I go about ordering it from the States? I am more than happy to order the relevant study files, but I already have the JAA ATPL and the SA commercial files for each subject. Do you folk think it necessary to order the study notes, or just get the past questions, study those and use the JAA ATPL/SA CPL notes for reference where necessary?

Any advice on how to proceed with getting the ground school sorted from here in the UK would be gratefully received!

Thanks for all your help and support so far!
Matt

[Shunter]

Yes, the various books and websites have all the questions and their respective answers. This will get you through the exam, but it won't get you through the oral test where the examiner will explore your knowledge for an hour or so before the checkride even begins.

JAA-land think they've got it nailed by requiring scores of exams, but the truth is somewhat different. Most forgot everything they learnt very quickly as most of it is bollocks that's never subsequently required. The FAA system might only have a single exam per license/rating, but the majority of it is far more relevant and if you're not up to speed for the oral it's a fail. Having done a bit of both I'm of the opinion that the FAA way of doing things makes for better long-term retention of the required knowledge.

[AlphaMale]

2BN2, 421C & Shunter ... Thanks for clearing that up.

Plan is to possibly fly 20hrs or so after gaining the PPL by the end of the summer (Say 70hr TT) Then do a Night Rating shortly followed by an IMC (Anther 20+ hrs added to the log book) I'll then fly as many IFR fights as possible on some long X/C flights while doing the ATPL GS.

I guess I just need to make sure that I fly the FAA-IR pre-requisites before booking my ticket to the states.

I'm just hoping I'll find the JAA CPL and MEIR a little easier (and cheaper) after the FAA IR.

Skysurfer66 - Congratulations on the purchase of your new toy