Flybe MPL at Oxford (commences 1 September 2009)

[kingofkabul]

This came up on Tuesday:

Oxford Aviation Training

I am considering applying for this course (if I can get the finance!). I was just wondering if anyone knew anything more about this scheme, or could shed some light on whether an MPL after 1500 hours is as valuable as a fully defrosted ATPL at 1500 hours. In other words, are you as likely to get a job with a jet operator later on in your career with an MPL as with an ATPL?

I am not blind to the fact that the airline industry is in a bad way, but considering this is an airline tailored scheme surely this would be considered a "safe" route into the industry - or am I completely missing the point here?

Apologies if this has been asked before, any insight would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[pilotatlast]

Looks like a good opportunity for all wannabees out there. Would imagine a lot of competition for the places as no other sponsorships seem to be in existance anymore.

Good luck everyone.

[EK4457]

Kingofkabul,

Firstly, how can you have zero posts?

On the MPL, there are many threads and posts on the subject. Use the search function. The bottom line is tread carefully, you will be a ginnea pig for the FTOs and airlines to experiment with.

It may work out if the industry picks up and you get 1500 hours. You can then convert it to an ATPL. This is in an ideal world.

If you get made redundant before then, you are screwed. You can't fly for another airline or on your own. This has happened already in europe.

You are taking a risk, maybe more than going down the tradidtional route but that's open to debate. One thing is for certain though - it is NOT a sponsorship. You pay for it yourself.

Get searching.

EK

[clanger32]

There are clearly some caveats around the scheme, as EK points out....however, I think in fairness to Oxford they've done their best to remove those problems - in that they'll convert you to an fATPL course if it does go tits up.

MPL at 1500 hours I think I'm right in saying becomes an ATPL, the same way an fATPL matures, so once you hit that, you're laughing. The danger would be if you got taken on, got to about 7/800 hours and THEN FlyBE went under...doubt OAA would change your qual at that point - so you'd be stuck with some conversion work....SOME financial cost, but mainly the pain in the ass of it.

However, all told, right now if you CAN get on an airline mentored scheme of any sort, then it is by far the safest route. FlyBE seems an excellent company with strong business model....really not a bad bet in my book

[kingofkabul]

Thank you for all your replies,

I posted this a few days ago, it seems it took a while to actually turn up on the boards, and has since been discussed in other posts!

I went to the open day at Oxford the other day when someone asked the Commercial Director whether or not OAA would convert you to a CPL/IR if Flybe were to go tits up pre 1500 hours. There was no reply, simply he did not know the answer. But then I do not think OAA are really prepared for Flybe to not take on cadets/go bust or they would not underwrite the risk of having to re-train people. But even then, unless it is a legally binding agreement I would not feel comfortable taking the risk! But that's just my opinion.

I agree with other posts that mentorship does seem to be the way to go, I find it amazing that people go in to schemes self-sponsored without any visibilty on the jobs market, but hey mentorships are almost non-existent at present.

Out of interest, has anyone heard any rumours about when/if the Netjets scheme will re-open? Seems to be the best deal at the mo!

Thanks again, and happy landings.

[Adios]

KofK,

EK4457 is right on one count and wrong on another. With an MPL, you can't fly single pilot unless you obtain single pilot ratings. MPL's will have a type rating and a multi-pilot IR only. A PPL would be easy to get if you just want to take your mates up for a jolly. If you want an fATPL, you'll need more. A single engine CPL would be easy to get with about 10 hours instruction. An ME course is 6 hours. A single pilot IR would be the costly bit, though I would certainly ask the CAA to authorize a 15 hour IR conversion, but whether they would approve and whether you could pass the test in 15 hours, I can't guess. I doubt that you would be required to take an MCC course.

EK4457 is wrong when he says if you are made redundant before 1500 hours, you can't fly for another airline. Bollocks! Any airline flying under JAR 1 Ops can hire an MPL holder as a First Officer. There will be many that might not be willing to hire MPL holders but I think that is more to do with ignorance than an MPL holder being higher risk.

If a JAA MPL holder is made redundant, any other JAA airline can hire them. If the new employer operates their type, they only need a conversion course to learn the new SOPs. If they are hired for a different type, they need a new type rating. Please tell me how that is any different than what would be required of an fATPL or even an ATPL holder? It's no different.

The risk for the first MPL cadets then is the ignorance they will encounter from others if they need to seek a second job before they reach 1500 hours.

[EK4457]

Adios,

Thanks for so eloquently pointing out that my post is not JAR-FCL word for word.

In theory, like you say, not a problem. Simple conversion course. Eveyones happy.

In reality, an airline is very unlikely to take on an FO with a few hundred hours on type who was trained by and for a different airline. You will call that ignorence and I'd agree. But, lots of airlines have much stranger training/recruitment requirements, flyBE being one of the worst.

This has happened already in europe. MPL graduates were made redundant and unable to find work because they fall into a training 'no mans land' of low hours, low experience yet trained to very specific SOPs on one type. They can't even become FIs. Of course, their banks still wanted their monthly wedge of cash.

The point of my post was to illustrate how good the MPL works on paper but in the real world it has lots of holes in it. You might be lucky. You might not.

Unfortunately, I got PPRUNE'd by the usual crowd.

EK

[Adios]

EK4457,

I agree they might get lucky and they might not. That's no different than any other low hour wannabe though, so it really comes down to how financially sound Flybe is and if they are likely to remain so. I give them better odds than many others, but each wannabe has to make that call for themselves.

[I like planes & stuf]

Don't hold your breath on NetJets. I understand that some cadets had been offered places on 2 upcoming courses later this year have been deferred indefinitely.

[Xulu]

Be wary of the 'financial assistance' you get on this scheme. Apparently the previous one had you paying back both loans simultaneously.

Total monthly repayments were very large for the first few years making living on a flybe wage almost impossible.

Dont know if its the same deal for this one, just check into it.

[philc1983]

I would be careful about OAA upholding their contractual obligations. When i trained there they were continually changing things to suit their own needs of which we had no say, or if we did bark up with a complaint were told to keep quiet or there'd be no airline recommendation for us.

[flying_maxime]

Does anyone knows anything about the skills assessment. I heard it's gonna be Pilapt or compass test? And what about the math test?

bye

[corsair]

You know people complain about pilots buying ratings, as in Ryanair. But here with the MPL we have people buying the whole thing, including the job.

At least with a normal mentorship, you are in fact getting an fATPL at the end, usuable for any flying job. In an MPL you're getting the promise of job which 'due to market forces' may or may not be available on the day you qualify. Thus you will be left high and dry, no job and no usable qualifications until you spend even more money to upgrade to a 'real' licence. Worse still, if you find yourself out of a job before you get to the magic 1500 hours and an actual ATPL in your hands you end up like the Sterling guinea pigs. Unemployable.

Now this may not apply to FlyBe, they may be around forever. But the Sterling example is more apt. As more and more airlines pick up the idea the bigger the risk. With any downturn airlines dump pilots or go bust. Any MPL pilot will be left high and dry. Incidentally are there any FlyBe mentored fATPL pilots floating about in the pool at the moment? I'll bet there are.

Make no mistake the MPL seems like a good idea. Produce well trained pilots groomed from the start in airline flying. Get them to pay for it. No risk to the airline. It's a brilliant idea for airlines. Lousy idea for potential pilots.

What is actually needed is a generic airline MPL that can be used for all airlines. That won't happen though.

[Adios]

The Sterling MPL pilots have found other jobs, some with Ryanair, some with SAS and another airline I can't remember the name. I assume the ones who went to Ryanair had to pay for the 737 TR. I think SAS grounded their Dash 8s, so the ones who went there probably got a new type. I'm not sure who pays for them at SAS.

The flybe MPL cadets don't pay for the Type Rating, flybe do and bond them for three years, so they don't pay for the whole lot. Flybe has also required both FTE and OAA to guarantee that they will fund retraining to CPL/IR if flybe are unable to take them onto the type rating at the end.

An MPL is useable for any flying job every bit as much as an fATPL is. The only part not transferable to any other airline is the type rating and that happens to be the case with an fATPL holder as well.

Flybe has 4 cadets at OAA from last year who are getting an MPL. They will have MPL cadets there soon. Let's compare them. The 2008 batch will get fATPL. The 2009 batch will get MPL. Both will get a Q400 type rating paid for by flybe.

If flybe go to the wall before either batch finishes their type rating, the 2008 batch will be able to apply to other airlines right away, but will not have to pay back the £20K sponsored costs to flybe. The 2009 batch will be retrained at FTE and OAA expense to an fATPL and not have to repay flybe for the sponsored costs.

If flybe go to the wall after they are on the line, they will be made redundant. It is not clear if FTE and OAA will retrain the 2009 batch to fATPL if this happens, but I suspect not since there is no regulation preventing other JAR 1 Ops operators from hiring them. Both the 2008 and 2009 batches will have recognized licenses and Q400 type ratings. The 2008 batch can apply for a broader range of jobs since they are qualified for both single pilot and multi pilot operations.

Both the 2008 and 2009 batches of flybe cadets could fly for another airline that operates the Q400 and all they would need to do is a conversion course where they would learn their new company's SOPs. Both batches would need a new type rating if they get a job with an airline that assigns them to something other than the Q400. The only question is who will pay for the new type rating and guess what, there is no difference in the odds for the MPL and fATPl holder as far as who will have to pay except for one very overlooked fact.

The fATPL holder before the flybe type rating will have less than 40 hours multi crew training and the MPL holders will have over 100 hours of it. Both will need to undergo a simulator assessment to get a job with a new airline. My money is on the MPL holders to be more likely to get the job.

Here's the bottom line, very few airliners have crashed because the pilots didn't get enough training in puddle jumpers. Most crashes occur when either a human error occurs or an equipment malfunction occurs and is then compounded by human errors. This is what MPL aspires to redress and you can't train for CRM, TEM, etc. without a two person flight deck crew.

[EK4457]

Adios,

The Sterling guys had to fork out an extra £30,000 to get an FR 'pay to fly' job off their own backs. They will have spent well over £100,000 to fly for an airline with non existent employee rights. Just goes to show what a mess you can get yourself into when you are a lab rat.

Nobody is suggesting that flyBE are going to go bust. However, a real issue is this;

1) They have a recruitment freeze.

2) They have a holding pool. Incidently it costs around £5,000 per year to be in the holding pool to remain current.

3) They will only start emptying the hold pool when the economy dictates.

4) The new MPL cadets will have to wait their turn in the hold pool.

So, for MPL cadets to go into a job, the economy has to pick up, flyBE start recruiting and the hold pool has to empty. All within the next 18 months.

Possible? Yes.

Would I put £71,000 on it? Not a chance.

IMHO it is very likely you will go into the dreaded hold pool and tread water indefinately. Just like people are now.

As a side issue, OAA can be summed up with this quote from their web site:

OAA and Flybe will offer equal partial sponsorship funding to a maximum of 12 successful candidates. These will be offered up to £19,800, in the form of interest-free loans

Since when was a sponsorship a loan? Surely it's one or the other? It's a loan. It is not in any way, shape or form a sponsorship.

If it all works out, fine. But there are enough question marks to take a second look even if flyBE stay in business for the next century.

EK

[Adios]

EK,

I don't care what they call it. They state very clearly that it is a loan. The name has nothing to do with whether or not any individual might wish to apply for it.

The main thing though is that my posts are rebutting the ignorance about MPL, not saying whether the market conditions are ideal for doing it right now.

All wannabes who fund their own training are taking a risk that they will end up at Ryanair or the likes forking out for a TR. Having seen a contract for a flybe cadet a few years ago, I can say that if flybe doesn't take these guys, they don't have to repay, which takes a bit if the sting out of having to fork over for Ryanair.

[5 RINGS]

EK,

you must have a bl**dy good pair of spectacles to have such a precise view of what's going on within Flybe from your sand pit in DXB...

[EK4457]

5 Rings;

Why is that then?

No genius myself, but I'm sure DXB is closer than the moon. Particularly the dark side.

EK

[Lew747]

Well i've just sent off my application. Let's see what reply i'll get, will keep you posted!

[EK4457]

Good luck Lew!

I'd be intersted to see how it all pans out.

EK