Is the ATPL really easier in the UK
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: South Africa
Is the ATPL really easier in the UK
Hi there,
I live in South Africa and have heard that the ATPL theory (Exams) are easier in the UK and USA, as opposed to SA. I am aware that there are more exams in the UK, but I have heard they are easier.
Is this really so, or is it just a romour?
Cheers
I live in South Africa and have heard that the ATPL theory (Exams) are easier in the UK and USA, as opposed to SA. I am aware that there are more exams in the UK, but I have heard they are easier.
Is this really so, or is it just a romour?
Cheers
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Between 2 melons
I think it is safe to say that this question will get the most replies EVER!
Because I am sure that there are thousands of UK cadets who passed their ATPLs then decided for fun to do ATPLs all over again in South Africa.
Just for the sake of comparison.
Because I am sure that there are thousands of UK cadets who passed their ATPLs then decided for fun to do ATPLs all over again in South Africa.
Just for the sake of comparison.
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Eire/HK
BetpumpS,
Nice answer, just goes to show that some people type faster than their brain operates. Lots of students have actually written in South Africa first, whilst doing their flight training there, and then returned to the UK and written here.
The question is therefore plain, simple and valid.
Nice answer, just goes to show that some people type faster than their brain operates. Lots of students have actually written in South Africa first, whilst doing their flight training there, and then returned to the UK and written here.
The question is therefore plain, simple and valid.
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: South Wales
But after studying to a level of equal knowledge surly it's a bit unfair to say the ATPL GS in the UK is easy? Same could be said for the UK students having spent 12 months of hard slog getting all 14 exams part time while holding down a full time job. Then studying FAA CPL and IR in 2 weeks and passing without breaking a sweat.
Joined: Dec 1998
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
Without having done SA exams it's not possible to make a comparison. However comparing the US ATP theory exam (all one of it) with the UK ATPL exams (14 of 'em) then I can say from experience that the US exam is simple, quick to study for and quick to complete.
The flight test in the US, however, is more difficult than the UK one. There's an oral section before you get to the flying bit with the questions at application level of knowledge. You can be given scenarios with circumstances that require you to apply the rules and regs to the situation as if you held an ATP already. Flight tolerances are a little more difficult in some areas eg 1/4 scale deflection for the ILS, and a little bit easier for others (established - not formally defined but often taken to mean needles off the stops - instead of half scale for commencing descent)
By the way, the Australian ATPL is somewhere between the two. Theory leans more towards the UK depth (although I think a bit more practical - at least when I did them nearly 20 years ago) while the flight test is more like the USA for the ground portion, and more like the UK for the inflight bit.
The flight test in the US, however, is more difficult than the UK one. There's an oral section before you get to the flying bit with the questions at application level of knowledge. You can be given scenarios with circumstances that require you to apply the rules and regs to the situation as if you held an ATP already. Flight tolerances are a little more difficult in some areas eg 1/4 scale deflection for the ILS, and a little bit easier for others (established - not formally defined but often taken to mean needles off the stops - instead of half scale for commencing descent)
By the way, the Australian ATPL is somewhere between the two. Theory leans more towards the UK depth (although I think a bit more practical - at least when I did them nearly 20 years ago) while the flight test is more like the USA for the ground portion, and more like the UK for the inflight bit.
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: UK
Alphamale... So you've done both JAA and FAA then? Granted the FAA written tests are shorter (ie. less bull!!!!!) but I'm sure you'll find the items being tested are similar to JAA, albeit minus the mindless crap which is of no use to man nor beast (other than making money for the CAA and the FTOs, slowing down the high number of pilots wizzing through the ATPL sausage factories, and weeding some people out).
One example would be the FAA Commercial written test (100 questions), it may contain 2 or 3 weight (yes weight, not mass) and balance questions to test your knowledge, as opposed to a whole paper on it. Same goes for flight planning etc, a couple of questions - NOT a whole paper (and more money to the CAA). Flight planning isn't tested fully in an exam (as I believe it is for the ATPLs), but will usually be given as an assignment for the practical test, with an FAA Pilot Examiner checking your work over and springing up various scenarios on you. It's all there, and certainly isn't watered down, or any easier.
I suppose it's nice to convince oneself that more exams means better qualified, once you've slogged the studying, put the time in, and paid the money... but at the end of the day, FAA or JAA achieve the same things and are both to ICAO standards.
I can say from experience, and I'm sure many will agree, that an FAA practical test (including the oral exam) more than make up for "easier" written tests. You can't really hit up a question bank in preparation for an oral test, and it's a good way of seeing if you really do know what you should.
Then comes the actual flying and piloting, the thing we all pride ourselves on as aviators, and surely the real test... The FAA flight tests definitely require more skill at Private and Commercial level. The Instrument Rating doesn't necessarily cover NDBs in any detail, but makes up for that with GPS approaches (which is the way things are going anyway) which have their own little intricacies. The FAA way is more practical, as people actually use their instrument ratings in small GA airplanes, and readily fly single crew in bad weather. Safety is important to the FAA, and the tests made to ensure that the skills taught can be used in anger, It's NOT a case of paying lip-service to a load of un-necessary crap, then forgetting it all and buying your way onto the right-seat of a big shiny jet!
Can't comment for the ATP (as I haven't done that here), but again it's ONE paper and a practical (oral and flight) test.
Oh, and you actually need 1500 hours (including minimum time(s) for cross-country, solo etc) before you can do the test! Non of that "frozen" mumbo-jumbo.
One example would be the FAA Commercial written test (100 questions), it may contain 2 or 3 weight (yes weight, not mass) and balance questions to test your knowledge, as opposed to a whole paper on it. Same goes for flight planning etc, a couple of questions - NOT a whole paper (and more money to the CAA). Flight planning isn't tested fully in an exam (as I believe it is for the ATPLs), but will usually be given as an assignment for the practical test, with an FAA Pilot Examiner checking your work over and springing up various scenarios on you. It's all there, and certainly isn't watered down, or any easier.
I suppose it's nice to convince oneself that more exams means better qualified, once you've slogged the studying, put the time in, and paid the money... but at the end of the day, FAA or JAA achieve the same things and are both to ICAO standards.
I can say from experience, and I'm sure many will agree, that an FAA practical test (including the oral exam) more than make up for "easier" written tests. You can't really hit up a question bank in preparation for an oral test, and it's a good way of seeing if you really do know what you should.
Then comes the actual flying and piloting, the thing we all pride ourselves on as aviators, and surely the real test... The FAA flight tests definitely require more skill at Private and Commercial level. The Instrument Rating doesn't necessarily cover NDBs in any detail, but makes up for that with GPS approaches (which is the way things are going anyway) which have their own little intricacies. The FAA way is more practical, as people actually use their instrument ratings in small GA airplanes, and readily fly single crew in bad weather. Safety is important to the FAA, and the tests made to ensure that the skills taught can be used in anger, It's NOT a case of paying lip-service to a load of un-necessary crap, then forgetting it all and buying your way onto the right-seat of a big shiny jet!
Can't comment for the ATP (as I haven't done that here), but again it's ONE paper and a practical (oral and flight) test.
Oh, and you actually need 1500 hours (including minimum time(s) for cross-country, solo etc) before you can do the test! Non of that "frozen" mumbo-jumbo.
Hovering AND talking
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Sapperkenno, no need to be quite so touchy ... I think Alpha Male's point is quite valid. He is not actually saying that FAA is easy-peasy BUT, that if you have already studied for one authority's exams, studying for another auhtority's exams will be easier because you've already learned half the stuff. Air Law and Ops may change but PoF will be the same whereever.
By anecdote, I believe the SA exams are more akin to JAA rather than FAA.
Cheers
Whirls
By anecdote, I believe the SA exams are more akin to JAA rather than FAA.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Not sure anymore….
Is the ATPL really easier in the UK
Why so many South Africans thinks that the ATPL's are more easier in the UK than SA is because there are a lot more resources availible in the UK compaired to the black and white photocopy notes in SA. But there is nothing that stops a SA student to sign up to an online question bank in the UK or even to buy a set a ATPL notes.
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From: EGYD
As someone who has both JAA and FAA licences,
I am more than happy to say that JAA is of a higher standard of flying, although the FAA is a higher standard of knowledge. (For USA schools unless you trained at Oxford where the CPL standard is dubious)
The JAA IR is the equivalent to the FAA ATP - regardless of approaches. The local DPEs where I trained were both JAA and FAA qualified and whole heartedly agreed with this consensus.
I am more than happy to say that JAA is of a higher standard of flying, although the FAA is a higher standard of knowledge. (For USA schools unless you trained at Oxford where the CPL standard is dubious)
The JAA IR is the equivalent to the FAA ATP - regardless of approaches. The local DPEs where I trained were both JAA and FAA qualified and whole heartedly agreed with this consensus.
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Between 2 melons
BetpumpS,
Nice answer, just goes to show that some people type faster than their brain operates. Lots of students have actually written in South Africa first, whilst doing their flight training there, and then returned to the UK and written here.
The question is therefore plain, simple and valid.
Right. Firstly I have no idea what that paragraph means.
'have actually written in South Africa first, whilst doing their flight training there, and then returned to the UK and written here'.
It doesn't make sense. Are you saying they do a few ATPLs in SA then do a few in UK?
Explain yourself B200Drvr
Nice answer, just goes to show that some people type faster than their brain operates. Lots of students have actually written in South Africa first, whilst doing their flight training there, and then returned to the UK and written here.
The question is therefore plain, simple and valid.
Right. Firstly I have no idea what that paragraph means.
'have actually written in South Africa first, whilst doing their flight training there, and then returned to the UK and written here'.
It doesn't make sense. Are you saying they do a few ATPLs in SA then do a few in UK?
Explain yourself B200Drvr
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Seems quite clear to me; students take/write/sit the SA ATPL exams, get an SA CPL then come to the UK and convert to JAA meaning they have to take/write/sit the JAA ATPL exams.
Therefore, these students will have some comparable knowledge although it's unlike that many people will have experience of all three!
Cheers
Whirls
Therefore, these students will have some comparable knowledge although it's unlike that many people will have experience of all three!
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Dagobah
BigGrecian - have you got that the wrong way around? I would have said that the FAA was of a higher standard for flying and lesser for knowledge.
This eternal FAA vs JAA argument will go on here forever more!
This eternal FAA vs JAA argument will go on here forever more!
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Between 2 melons
Ok. Fair enough. Shows how long I've been out of 'the game'
I can't be bothered to look it up on the net but are you saying they need to re-do ALL 14 JAA exams?
Why would you ever plan your training for that eventuality? I still think I am missing something here.
I can't be bothered to look it up on the net but are you saying they need to re-do ALL 14 JAA exams?
Why would you ever plan your training for that eventuality? I still think I am missing something here.
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Betpump, try thinking outside the box??? 
Firstly, someone could have dual nationality or dual visas and require both licences. Secondly, someone could train in SA (it's a heck of a lot cheaper) then convert to JAA. Yes, they would have to do all 14 exams but, if it's all fresh in the mind having studied the subjects in another country, it's not too big a problem to write a few quizzes is it?
Might not be everyon'e course of action but hey, pros and cons ... it's not that daft.
Cheers
Whirls
Firstly, someone could have dual nationality or dual visas and require both licences. Secondly, someone could train in SA (it's a heck of a lot cheaper) then convert to JAA. Yes, they would have to do all 14 exams but, if it's all fresh in the mind having studied the subjects in another country, it's not too big a problem to write a few quizzes is it?
Might not be everyon'e course of action but hey, pros and cons ... it's not that daft.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Between 2 melons
Ok guys.
Believe it or not, I do think outside the box providing it doesn't go against common sense.
I'm just surprised that the difference in price of training is so different that it actually makes sense to redo 14 exams!!
I almost never took the -400 job when I realised I'd have to read the Ops manual all over again!!!
I guess some people are cut out for studying. For me its a constant struggle.
Believe it or not, I do think outside the box providing it doesn't go against common sense.
I'm just surprised that the difference in price of training is so different that it actually makes sense to redo 14 exams!!
I almost never took the -400 job when I realised I'd have to read the Ops manual all over again!!!
I guess some people are cut out for studying. For me its a constant struggle.
