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PTC in trouble?

Old 20th Mar 2009, 17:44
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Dublin
Posts: 6
How to exit the industry...

There are a lot of bitter bunnies on this thread. It's hard to generalise, but bitching about your FTO is not something I associate with mature people and successful students. In short, losers are loud.

As for Aero222, if it is true that he used to work for PTC, then I take it that he has had enough of the industry? Have you Aero222? Do you think that any FTO, anywhere will take the risk of hiring you after reading what you have posted here?

And yes, I have connections with PTC. And I happen to know that their standards are very high in every area of their business. And I know that the best students seem to have the best experience there.

Bitter rubbish like what has been posted above by whingeofpilots, a797 and 738bus is usually best ignored. Nobody will take it very seriously. Grow up, guys!

But when the bittterness spills over into dangerous and defamatory rubbish like Aero222's it needs to be rebutted.
DublinDev is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2009, 22:10
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Pearly White Gates
Posts: 100
I've been a lurker on PPRuNe for awhile and have yet to read a positive post about PTC and I would say that there is rairly smoke without fire but to be honest I think that anyone going for flight training is old enough or at least should be mature enough to make their own decisions.

Therefore I would say that you do your homework and visit these schools, talk to the instructors and students and get an idea of the place before handing over your money. There are plenty of them so you can afford to shop around.

Use a little common sense guys.
Yahweh is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2009, 22:36
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: N.Ireland
Age: 37
Posts: 13
i was down for my assessment recently and i can honestly say that i got a good feeling about the place. the staff are very good and the new building is taking shape. i would certainly agree that the course is very expensive, especially as the euro and sterling are so close atm. For that price you would expect to have an mcc included but you dont even get that. Im trying to secure finance for a course but im keeping my options open for now.
bunnyhop is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2009, 23:10
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 23
Thumbs down €€€

Over priced marketing. Their FlyBe scheme is 97000€ type rated included!! How oh how can you price a modular course at that figure?

No smoke without fire. We hear of the high prices of Oxford,CTC and FTE but to be honest there is not much complaining about them FTO's.
daraireland is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2009, 01:00
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Every place but home
Age: 43
Posts: 128
I am currently with PTC in Florida, and can honestly say that the level of training which we are recieving is excellent. Again I am not here to get into a slagging match, as I dont have the time or the energy.
You have to be selected for the FlyBe scheme and pass a FlyBe interview, then if successful you will be accepted on the FlyBe mentored scheme, and you will recieve a combined JOC/MCC and type rating paid for by FlyBe BUT you will be bonded.
The JOC/MCC is done at Simtech which I have been informed is brilliant from people who have done the course there. If anyone has any questions regarding PTC I will try to outline the pro's and con's of the course here from an honest stand point. Cheers all
acepilotmurdock is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2009, 11:43
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: all over the place
Age: 59
Posts: 514
Chock to Chock - Flight Safety did not terminate the contract. The standard of training of PPL was and is very poor, I know because I had have direct contact with it. Allegedly it went wrong when the new centre managers attitude caused experienced instructors to depart leaving the hour builders.....
Issues are; PPL licence holders that can't trim, level off, hold altitude, never done a no-flap landing. No idea how to VFR navigate and speed control non-existent. If that is quality C to C, than your sim check will be fun for someone. The PPL course has to be good because it is leading on to the CPL/IR. You cannot mop up bad techniques later on.
And yes FSI is a big organisation with a lot of planes, most of them on the ground. The ramp at Melbourne is empty most of the day with everything flying. As for your other silly comments
Aero222 - I would be careful with your 'facts'. Someone may just feel it necessary to post the facts about you.
So all you budding accountants (you certainly aren't pilots); where are your budget figures for running an ATPL course?
The association with Florida Institute of Aviation Technology is a good one. FIT are on the whole a very professional organisation with new facilities and aircraft. They do not rely on an out of date reputation as FSI do. The quality control is mostly very good (as in any organisation).
How many times have FSI organised a 17 aircraft student fly out for the weekend to New Orleans? You are lucky to get 30 miles out from Vero Beach. Will be a regular event.
There are rules of behaviour which have to be enforced or not. There is no point in half measures because no-one knows where the line is then. If you bend it for one person then someone else is entitled to the same. If you are not mature enough to see that you need to be at home with mummy.
The last laugh has to be that in these difficult times employers are more choosy and will see through your inadequacies at interview and you won't have a job anyway
pilotbear is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2009, 21:49
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rugby
Age: 52
Posts: 29
guys, these issues are typical for most FTOs these days. I started my training in Cranfield. Tried 2 schools there. Both were horrible. Moved to Bournemouth, it wasn't perfect but school was much better than Cranfield holes. I did it modular route.
john.o.pilot is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2009, 23:47
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 1

I did some of my training in Flight safety and I am now in Florida institue with PTC Florida. Don't know much about why they changed but this place is much better. very good instructors, great airplanes, and there is no messing.
mustanghead is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2009, 17:07
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2
Response from Mike Edgeworth CEO - Pilot Training College.

To Whom it May Concern

I feel that I am obliged to respond to a range of points made concerning PTC in this forum because the professional, dedicated and hard working people who make up PTC deserve to be defended.

I don’t despair when I read these comments because I know that they come from a very small minority of people who consist of (a) competitors
(b) a former staff member who has a grievance and a very small minority of former students who have had to have their training terminated due to
disciplinary action. I am convinced that any other professional pilot or student pilot in this industry who has a point to make regarding PTC will be up front about it and either makes it personally to me or to one of our staff. Professional pilots and professional student pilots do not hide behind
unanimous forums.

I am however, interested to hear that PTC is generating such publicity on PPRuNe. One would have to ask the question.. Why does an FTO with consistent above average results that has experienced consistent growth over the past 9 years attract such attention. The results that I refer to are the pass rates. Rather that quote them here why not obtain them from the Regulator. The pass rates of any FTO are the final unambiguous test of the quality of operation of the College. Without professional management, adequate resources, quality instructors and the discipline of a rigorous quality system such results would not be possible. Perhaps PTC attracts all this publicity because through its success it is ruffling some feathers.

Some points need to be clarified:

1. PTC terminated its Contract with Flight Safety Academy on 31st December 2009. The reason for this termination was simply that the Contract was due for renewal by PTC on this date. PTC received a more favorable offer to its tender for renewal from Florida Institute of Technology. Bear in mind that this was the most valuable tender offered to the GA training market in recent years consisting of training requirements for over 200 students per annum. PTC and FSI had a very good and mutually beneficial relationship for two years. When renewing Contracts all tendering organizations will carry out in-depth analyses and adopt measurement criteria that will ensure the best outcome. PTC has succeeded in achieving this objective which is beneficial for all concerned including our students.

2. PTC Entered into a new Contract with Florida Institute of Technology following a 3 month “public” tendering process. A copy of the tender is available if required.

3. PTC Ireland has moved into a brand new very modern building in the Waterford Airpark because we outgrew our facilities in the Waterford terminal building. Our growth resulted in the College operating from four separate locations in the Airpark and the Airport terminal. Operating from 4 locations at the same airport is inefficient and cumbersome so we planned and designed a new facility all under one roof in the Airpark. The new facility is modern, well laid out, bright, air-conditioned and has all facilities
necessary for staff and students.

4. All VFR training, both FAA and JAA, in now done in our brand new 10,000 sq ft purpose built school at Melbourne airport in Florida. Both FIT and PTC Florida operate from this building.

5. Jointly with FIT we train on a fleet of new “glass cockpit” Piper aircraft.

6. PTC Florida now offers a full time ATPL Theory course. The first examinations have just been completed on site in Melbourne Airport and the first time pass result was 94%.

7. I am reluctant to continue further into the claims made on PPRuNe. As you can see from the above, speculation is never based on facts and is therefore inaccurate and misleading.

Pilot Training College Ireland and Pilot Training College Florida are Certified Flight training Schools under JAR-FCL. They both undergo rigorous auditing through internal approved quality systems and through regular external audits carried out by independent auditors and by The Irish Aviation Authority. Should any of the standards required under JAR-FCL be found to be inadequate or less that published requirements the schools would not be permitted to maintain their Certifications.

The Management and staff of both Colleges are experiences professionals with establishes track records in their respective areas of expertise gained not only in aviation but also in many other disciplines. I have total confidence in the Management and Staff of both Colleges and I have no hesitation in stating that they are among the most dedicated and professional in the industry.

The quality systems of the Colleges will from time to time identify areas that may require change and / or improvement. This is one of the purposes of having a Quality system. If standards are not been met in a particular area remedial action is taken to rectify this situation. There are times when remedial action is not effective and on occasions as a result we have found it necessary to replace staff members. While the vast majority of our students are focused and hardworking, occasionally and in the minority of cases we may need to advise students that they are better not to continue their training or indeed we may need to terminate their training. Staff and student replacement or disciplinary measures are necessary on occasions in order to protect our standards and to ensure that we continuously provide the best possible services and facilities for the majority who are deserving of our support.

Changes in personnel can often lead to some form of reprisal and unfortunately PPRuNe is an ideal forum for such reprisal. Because it is an anonymous forum people who feel that they have a grievance will flock to such a forum since it affords them the ability to make false claims that they feel they will not be held accountable for. Thankfully, due to pending legislation in Europe, this practice is being brought under control as unanimous forums like PPRuNe will be required to disclose details of contributors where cases of deformation and slander are been pursued through the courts.

I expect that the vast majority of professionals in the aviation industry will continue to support our Colleges both in Ireland and in the USA. We are proud of what we have achieved and of our association with both Waterford Institute of Technology and Florida Tech. University in offering our Aviation degree programs, our graduates are proud of the qualifications they receive in our Colleges, we are proud of our anagement and Staff. Management and Staff are justifyably proud of the job they do and of the job satisfaction they derive from being part of our success story. Our airline customers continue to support our efforts to be the best at what we do and on April 4
th next we will have the opportunity collectively to celebrate our success at the Irish Annual Aviation Ball which is being held in Faithlegg Country Club, Waterford.

I personally invite anybody who is planning a career in aviation or who wishes to explore in any way our facilities, resources and performance statistics to contact me directly. I will be delighted to make all our resources and experience available so that your experience in aviation will be a valuable and memorable one.

Thank you for reading this and best wishes to all in aviation. I hope it is not to long winded. It is not my intention to participate in any way in the debates on this forum but I do feel strongly that our management and staff, who are the best I have worked with over a 35 year career span, deserve to have their efforts defended and publicly praised. I hope that any genuine person reading this will at least see that we do the very best we can to be the best. We will continue to strive to improve so that all stakeholders in PTC Ireland and PTC Florida will feel that they are getting a fair deal and if our competitors and other minorities don’t like that, well tough!!


Mike Edgeworth

Chief Executive
Pilot Training College.

Last edited by Mike Edgeworth.; 22nd Mar 2009 at 17:25.
Mike Edgeworth. is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2009, 17:28
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,114
Why does an FTO with consistent above average results that has experienced consistent growth over the past 9 years attract such attention.
How come there are a number of FTO's in this part of the world (say PAT, Multiflight, Bristol, Airways to name but a few) that have consistently high pass rates yet everyone raves about them and you hardly hear a bad word spoken. Yet your establishment keeps on hitting the headlines. I don't know call me an old cynic.......

Incidentally Mike can you confirm that you paid all of the creditors in Bournemouth when you closed up shop a few years ago? And any truth to the rumour that you took rental monies from a certain groundschool provider but failed to pass it onto the leaseholder leaving the former high and dry nor paid other FTO's for time clocked up on their aircraft?
potkettleblack is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2009, 17:30
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: all over the place
Age: 59
Posts: 514
Aero22, as you brought the subject up; what about the gear up landing at Oxford recently where the warning horn was cancelled and forgotten?
Every school will have an incident sooner or later, it is the nature of the business.
pilotbear is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 07:41
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: up a gumtree
Age: 49
Posts: 109
well, you can't make wild claims about deals with airlines which draw in students with false hopes and get away with it forever. When you see things like that, you know there will be other issues in a school.
tropicalfridge is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 12:46
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2
PTC - Further Clarification from Mike Edgeworth - CEO

There is no connection at all between PTC Ireland and PTC Bournmouth other that that I did my CRI and IRI training there. I met Tony Kember in PTC Bournmouth at that time some time before PTC Ireland was founded by me. Tony subsequently was appointed by me as Head of Training of PTC Ireland. Your question clearly indicates that you were not aware that there is no connection at all between PTC Ireland or myself and PTC Bournmouth. There never has been any connection between these companies other that a similar name.

Mike Edgeworth
Pilot Training College Ireland
Mike Edgeworth. is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 13:14
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: all over the place
Age: 59
Posts: 514
tropical fridge
which wild claims are those then? If someone doesn't get a job it is down to them! not the school, you can only do so much baby minding and hand holding. Where on earth do you people get this stuff?
Astonishing... keep it up. It is almost as funny a Fox News

Something that needs to be borne in mind here is when an airline or employer asks for a reference or report on a student the behaviour , dedication, interaction with authority and other student colleages during the whole course is taken into account. Not just whether they have passed the ME/IR test which, lets face it is not rocket science if you have used your hours building wisely and studied your aircraft
pilotbear is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 20:13
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: rugby
Age: 52
Posts: 29
ok, so I pay £50000 of my hardly earned cash to school. they set me up with an hour builder and it is my responsibility to learn everything on my own.
You only get things like this in aviation schools these days. I tried 2 schools in cranfield, my first instructor used to be a postman, changed the school and my instructor there used to work as a security in tesco shops. no surprise they lacked knowledge and didn't have a clue about teaching.

went to bournemouth, instructor was an ex-airline crew and a proper pilot. Learned more in four flights with him than in 30 hours i spent with the losers above.
john.o.pilot is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2009, 21:54
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: all over the place
Age: 59
Posts: 514
what you are saying is exactly the problem with FSI at Vero beach.
However, it is still your responsibility to study, learn drills, checklists and emergencies. You have to perform! no-one else. My point, from a great deal of experience is that students generally do not realise the importance of learning the above before getting in the aircraft, it then costs them more money. All the advice and guidance is provided, but not taken up until well into the course when it results in repeated lessons. Crazy behaviour
pilotbear is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 12:31
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: U.K.
Posts: 5
Thumbs up

I have sat in the sidelines for a while now reading some of the stuff that people post up here and to be honest most of it actually makes me laugh. If i can i would like to give my two pence worth and share my opinion. As i am still a student with ptc I feel it is only right to set some of you guys straight
Yes i understand some people have grievances and thats only natural but to post it on here says alot about the type of people they are. I was in fsi towards the end of the ptc contract so i know what it was like, since the new manager took over there the place went to pot young instructors who just wanted to build their hours and not really concerned with actual good training the fact there were near more planes grounded everyday than in the air, the fact they had to sell four / five planes to try and pay for maintainence so you can see how the move fit had to be a possitive one.
I also feel it my duty to defend the staff and instructors with ptc, yes there are some weak links but doesn't every company. The instructors there are good people and try and help you out in everyway in and out of the classroom. They push you and try and get you to a standard and it shows my the success rate of the cpl/meir exams and the rest behind the scenes try and keep it going as best they can. As i said before this is only my oppinion and yes i have had issues with them as well but you know they are trying and changing everyday and thats why you have to say fair enough you screwed some things up but you also done alot of things right, they have a good thing going and it shows by the ammount of new people coming in every week for assesment and the new building they have moved into is top. So thats it i have said my piece i'm glad i chose ptc because training aside i have met some great people students and staff and i look forward to working with them in the future.
flyguy80 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 19:50
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ireland
Age: 33
Posts: 7
Thank You!

Thanks flyguy80!
I have decided to go to PTC in Florida at the end of the year and I am delighted to hear such a good review of them. I'm under no illusions that anywhere is completely perfect but the place sounds like they are doing lots for students and that the training is second to none. Also, some sun and a nearby beach adds to the attraction!! Can't wait!!
mspilot2B is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2009, 22:53
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Pearly White Gates
Posts: 100
Whilst I truely believe that Waterford PTC are doing their best to iron out any problems that students may have and that is something I applaud them for, there is one thing I think we can all agree on and that's the price of their course is daylight robbery.

At the end of the day no matter what way you wan't to sugar coat it, they offer a modular course not an intergrated one. And it costs the guts of 100,000 to do it when you can get a fully integrated option with two long established and highly reputable companies for the same price and in one case actually cheaper with current exchange rates.

So before I were to ever consider PTC and I'm not saying that I am, they would have to bring their prices done by a hell of a lot. In the current market conditions the prices you guys are charging for what is essentially a modular course are outrageous.

Anyone consider it without looking at the intergrated option available for the same price is nuts.
Yahweh is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2009, 00:18
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ireland
Posts: 22
just a little to add

I did full time ATPL training at Oxford for their 7 month course.
The course was genuinely good, and I recently passed my 14 th exam

While I was there, I met three Irish students who were clients of PTC.
These people had paid up the ridiculous sum this company charges for their training, then, due to the complete lack of quality groundschool they ended up forking out £5k to Oxford to get some decent groundschool.

I would run a mile!! I visited the school appox 2 years ago, and it was this visit that made me go the modular route!!
Great marketing spiel tho!
skylarker1983 is offline  

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