Do you tell them that they're wasting their time?!
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"I get the impression that if the face doesn't fit with these people, they will **** you around... and ultimately sometimes Instructors have no people skills or are just disinterested. It happens."
This is the most true thing I have read here in year. I have worked in ops and as and instructor. Many flight instructors bitch about students and take the micky, they can be absolute scum and they exist in all flying schools. If a student has a bad flight they'll take the piss at the end of the lesson once the student leaves, sometimes it can be so bad the student can feel there is about to be some sarcasm and they just have to flee out the door.
In serveral years I have seen alot of arrogant 'young' pilots instructors who act this way, who think they're God's gift and f**k around with students confidents
This is the most true thing I have read here in year. I have worked in ops and as and instructor. Many flight instructors bitch about students and take the micky, they can be absolute scum and they exist in all flying schools. If a student has a bad flight they'll take the piss at the end of the lesson once the student leaves, sometimes it can be so bad the student can feel there is about to be some sarcasm and they just have to flee out the door.
In serveral years I have seen alot of arrogant 'young' pilots instructors who act this way, who think they're God's gift and f**k around with students confidents
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Very interesting discussion this.
In my own current field, there's a heavy emphasis on on the job training from senior staff to junior staff. Years ago, it was realised that acquiring the skills necessary to do a given job didn't necessarily equate to having the ability to pass said skills on in any meaningful sense. Added to this was the absolute fact that the working environment was very much a competitive "towel flicking in the changing rooms" type, where questions, and those asking them, while not always discouraged, were often treated with derision.
In the (slightly) more modern setting, those who are expected to teach have now the opportunity to learn how to do so effectively in a formal environment.
At my flying school, most if not all of the regular instructors seem to be able to teach reasonably effectively, and have some of the traits of those "learning to teach" type courses I just mentioned, so I assumed that this was part of the FI rating training.
Is this not the case?
Regards
JR
In my own current field, there's a heavy emphasis on on the job training from senior staff to junior staff. Years ago, it was realised that acquiring the skills necessary to do a given job didn't necessarily equate to having the ability to pass said skills on in any meaningful sense. Added to this was the absolute fact that the working environment was very much a competitive "towel flicking in the changing rooms" type, where questions, and those asking them, while not always discouraged, were often treated with derision.
In the (slightly) more modern setting, those who are expected to teach have now the opportunity to learn how to do so effectively in a formal environment.
At my flying school, most if not all of the regular instructors seem to be able to teach reasonably effectively, and have some of the traits of those "learning to teach" type courses I just mentioned, so I assumed that this was part of the FI rating training.
Is this not the case?
Regards
JR
Last edited by JohnRayner; 11th Jan 2009 at 20:00. Reason: "while not always often"..... what does that even mean!?
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Avoid Wolverhampton, shall we say...
Worth a go nowadays though - a lot has changed over the last few years, various new schools springing up, dieing, rising from the flames, etc. Totally agree though that examiners like that don't do us any favours - flying's supposed to be fun! It's correct that at the initial stage a single technique should be taught to avoid confusion until the student is competent enough with the aircraft and the surroundings to take in alternatives, but ultimately if it works then it works.
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The FI course is in some ways not a very good back ground to start instructing.
It shows you how to break down the lessons into parts and to patter them.
Now after you have your ticket you have 3 years before being checked again unless you are working for a school which needs to standise its instructors. An example of this is the RAF contract schools where CFS comes in and fly's with each instructor. Most instructors move on before the 3 years.
Now after you get let loose on your own there is not alot of input into your methods. Alot of your style comes from past life experence.
Myself I used to go for the creating a safe learning enviroment and let the student cock up and give a few pointers and that seemed to work in the majority of cases.
Now that the boom years of hiring have gone the experence level of instructors is going up. But instructing takes a hell of alot out of you and generally the working conditions are pretty poor and you start getting pissed off at about 600 hours. After 1000 hours you are chapping at the bit to do something else. Add in a few students who have jumped a couple rungs above the instructor on the ladder and are flying things which burn Jet A and you have a very grumpy instructor who should really not be instructing.
It shows you how to break down the lessons into parts and to patter them.
Now after you have your ticket you have 3 years before being checked again unless you are working for a school which needs to standise its instructors. An example of this is the RAF contract schools where CFS comes in and fly's with each instructor. Most instructors move on before the 3 years.
Now after you get let loose on your own there is not alot of input into your methods. Alot of your style comes from past life experence.
Myself I used to go for the creating a safe learning enviroment and let the student cock up and give a few pointers and that seemed to work in the majority of cases.
Now that the boom years of hiring have gone the experence level of instructors is going up. But instructing takes a hell of alot out of you and generally the working conditions are pretty poor and you start getting pissed off at about 600 hours. After 1000 hours you are chapping at the bit to do something else. Add in a few students who have jumped a couple rungs above the instructor on the ladder and are flying things which burn Jet A and you have a very grumpy instructor who should really not be instructing.
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some comments not to say he was a good instructor and not to say you did wrong
1. Climb out - I was taught best rate of climb.
This guy made me climb so I could see the horizon, barely a climb at all.
I played his game... three circuits later with the nose sat just on the horizon he wanted to know why I wasn't climbing...
Seems like he was a bad instructor, but:
My opinion: In general he was right about not loosing horizon. If you dont climb seeing the hz you were not sitting correct (eyes too low) or the airplane is a bit special so you should know what angle to fly on instruments and be very aware of spatial disorientation and what course/position. If you sit a little low, normally you can stretch your neck to see the horizon when you have trimmed best rate climb ATTITUDE. (Cessna 172/Piper28 etc.) You should just barely see it to stay positionoriented and of course not overdo the possibly lower nose than normal so you will continue climb after lifting off. Loosing the hz means you need to fly by instruments and in general its a bad idea after just a few hours of training. The main reason I say this is because many fly T/O climb looking on airspeed instead of attitude. Using the (bad) technique at night loosing the horizon is difficult and easily makes you disoriented. (guess you know
2. As you turn crosswind I was taught to have a quick glance over your shoulder at the aerodrome so you can orientate yourself in the circuit for good landmarks etc.
He started yelling at me to know wtf I was doing... Four circuits later he was saying... "Now glance over your shoulder..."
If you did not loose the hz you would better know where you are and the glance would be 1 sec. Before flying (and when flying with little reference)do think what degrees to head on crosswind, downwind, base (incl. predicted wind) And you will save a sec. to finish downwindcheck and communication in good time before keypoint and use extra capacity to get properly positioned on keypoint for a good start to a good landing.
3. I was taught that after turning base leg to throttle back, bring the speed back to 80kts, one stage of flap, then trim for 70kts...
This cheese had me deploying full flap at 1000ft at 90kts straight after turning base leg, above the flap limiting speed!
In general use less flap to make it simple
Flare with less flap will be less abrubt. Abrubtness is not a good thing at night.
Full flap for emergency excersise etc. when you have good visual references ok
4. On one approach I was high, I raised my hand over the throttle to reduce power...
He went irate demanding to know why I was adding power??
Ok, I see myself in this situation, possibly he thought the power was already in idle or he looked at the slightly low speed? and thought you were adding to adjust speed instead of lowering the nose and trade the excess alt. However, maybe you should consider to keep your hand on the throttle all the time on approach just letting it go for retrim. Know proper powersetting to fly the glidepath in different wind and what the proper correction going from three white to two white to stop the correction. About 100rpm more etc. (in general, it makes the flying more precise than flying on your "back" and also you will more easily note if config. is wrong etc.)
5. One another circuit I was getting low, I whacked in some power. 'Never be shy of using power if you need it...' As I was taught by an experienced ex RAF pilot.
Our 'hero' then lost it, "WHY ARE YOU ADDING POWER??" My response, "So I don't get low and slow!" Cue blank expression from him.
Speed is life!
6. On climb out on one circuit he asked: "Engines failed. Whatcha gonna do?" My response, "Glide speed, 70kts and look for the best spot 30 degrees either side of the nose..."
He lost it... AGAIN. "NO, NO, NO... What is the right answer?" I just looked at him. His response: "You push the nose forward!!" He yelled.
I do agree with his procedure: experience shows that many pilots forget to put down the nose even if it should be obvious. Speed is life but fly attitude and power (when you have) to get the speed, check speed all the time but not fly airspeed
Does that not go without saying? Hopefully but imagine the few times you have practised the last month compared to braking by car?
"Yeah, I'll make sure that on an Emergency Stop in my car I don't forget to press the footbrake, too..."
By this stage after being yelled at for two hours I was a nervous wreck and questioning whether or not I even knew the basics of flight... He then sent me solo!! Good idea, turn your student into a quivering wreck, then solo him!
Guess he liked to emphazise what he thought was important for you before letting you solo at night and that he saw good improvement on these items. Flying at night is very dangerous compared to dayflying and if the student think its easy (never experienced leans/vertigo/loss of situational awareness) and dont care to keep the hz already on T/O i do understand if he is worried.
He had previously told me to do my four full stops then on the fifth leave the circuit and do a short nav trip, but I didn't have to if I didn't want. Just as long as I left the circuit. I went off, then did the short nav trip... I got back and then told me we had to work on our communication.Navigating at night is difficult for instructors too
Now, if we had been on the ground and he had spoken to like that, where I'm from we have a way of dealing with people like that... But I let it slide, as after shutting down the aircraft he apologised profusely... STRANGE MAN. I class instructors like him as dangerous...good pilotage: fly safe altitudes, procedures, correct errors (at least he tried)
Biff.
This guy made me climb so I could see the horizon, barely a climb at all.
I played his game... three circuits later with the nose sat just on the horizon he wanted to know why I wasn't climbing...
Seems like he was a bad instructor, but:
My opinion: In general he was right about not loosing horizon. If you dont climb seeing the hz you were not sitting correct (eyes too low) or the airplane is a bit special so you should know what angle to fly on instruments and be very aware of spatial disorientation and what course/position. If you sit a little low, normally you can stretch your neck to see the horizon when you have trimmed best rate climb ATTITUDE. (Cessna 172/Piper28 etc.) You should just barely see it to stay positionoriented and of course not overdo the possibly lower nose than normal so you will continue climb after lifting off. Loosing the hz means you need to fly by instruments and in general its a bad idea after just a few hours of training. The main reason I say this is because many fly T/O climb looking on airspeed instead of attitude. Using the (bad) technique at night loosing the horizon is difficult and easily makes you disoriented. (guess you know
2. As you turn crosswind I was taught to have a quick glance over your shoulder at the aerodrome so you can orientate yourself in the circuit for good landmarks etc.
He started yelling at me to know wtf I was doing... Four circuits later he was saying... "Now glance over your shoulder..."
If you did not loose the hz you would better know where you are and the glance would be 1 sec. Before flying (and when flying with little reference)do think what degrees to head on crosswind, downwind, base (incl. predicted wind) And you will save a sec. to finish downwindcheck and communication in good time before keypoint and use extra capacity to get properly positioned on keypoint for a good start to a good landing.
3. I was taught that after turning base leg to throttle back, bring the speed back to 80kts, one stage of flap, then trim for 70kts...
This cheese had me deploying full flap at 1000ft at 90kts straight after turning base leg, above the flap limiting speed!
In general use less flap to make it simple
Flare with less flap will be less abrubt. Abrubtness is not a good thing at night.
Full flap for emergency excersise etc. when you have good visual references ok
4. On one approach I was high, I raised my hand over the throttle to reduce power...
He went irate demanding to know why I was adding power??
Ok, I see myself in this situation, possibly he thought the power was already in idle or he looked at the slightly low speed? and thought you were adding to adjust speed instead of lowering the nose and trade the excess alt. However, maybe you should consider to keep your hand on the throttle all the time on approach just letting it go for retrim. Know proper powersetting to fly the glidepath in different wind and what the proper correction going from three white to two white to stop the correction. About 100rpm more etc. (in general, it makes the flying more precise than flying on your "back" and also you will more easily note if config. is wrong etc.)
5. One another circuit I was getting low, I whacked in some power. 'Never be shy of using power if you need it...' As I was taught by an experienced ex RAF pilot.
Our 'hero' then lost it, "WHY ARE YOU ADDING POWER??" My response, "So I don't get low and slow!" Cue blank expression from him.
Speed is life!
6. On climb out on one circuit he asked: "Engines failed. Whatcha gonna do?" My response, "Glide speed, 70kts and look for the best spot 30 degrees either side of the nose..."
He lost it... AGAIN. "NO, NO, NO... What is the right answer?" I just looked at him. His response: "You push the nose forward!!" He yelled.
I do agree with his procedure: experience shows that many pilots forget to put down the nose even if it should be obvious. Speed is life but fly attitude and power (when you have) to get the speed, check speed all the time but not fly airspeed
Does that not go without saying? Hopefully but imagine the few times you have practised the last month compared to braking by car?
"Yeah, I'll make sure that on an Emergency Stop in my car I don't forget to press the footbrake, too..."
By this stage after being yelled at for two hours I was a nervous wreck and questioning whether or not I even knew the basics of flight... He then sent me solo!! Good idea, turn your student into a quivering wreck, then solo him!
Guess he liked to emphazise what he thought was important for you before letting you solo at night and that he saw good improvement on these items. Flying at night is very dangerous compared to dayflying and if the student think its easy (never experienced leans/vertigo/loss of situational awareness) and dont care to keep the hz already on T/O i do understand if he is worried.
He had previously told me to do my four full stops then on the fifth leave the circuit and do a short nav trip, but I didn't have to if I didn't want. Just as long as I left the circuit. I went off, then did the short nav trip... I got back and then told me we had to work on our communication.Navigating at night is difficult for instructors too
Now, if we had been on the ground and he had spoken to like that, where I'm from we have a way of dealing with people like that... But I let it slide, as after shutting down the aircraft he apologised profusely... STRANGE MAN. I class instructors like him as dangerous...good pilotage: fly safe altitudes, procedures, correct errors (at least he tried)
Biff.
Last edited by jager34; 12th Jan 2009 at 07:03.
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Some interesting stuff here...
I have had my share of no-hopers, just wasting everyone's time. I certainly never thought of just flying to no effect for the sake of getting paid to do that, no. That said, your average no-hoper will not listen to good advice about his lack of aptitude. Not least, would you rather be some sort of student and enjoy a subsidised life-style or else have to get out there and work? Or for the older, already licenced, guy, give up aviation to sell garage door openers? Puh-leeze! The same things that make a no-hoper so will keep him plugging away without a prayer of real success.
That last example, of the night circuits, shows some pretty obvious poor technique on the part of the instructor. Not least, you should pick up on what the student is doing right and then try to put any corrections in a positive way.
To just ask a question with no obvious answer, i.e., "That's not right! What should you do differently?" is pretty poor. The student is going to do what he thinks is right so that you need to tell him what you think he should do differently! If he says, "Hold 70 knots," then you can just say, "Yes, that is right but don't forget that with an engine failure you do that is by lowering the nose." That gives him positive reinforcement of what he got right AND leads him to understand what you think is most important.
As to a flat climb to keep the horizon in sight, whatever happened to looking a bit off to the left side to see the horizon rather than expecting to see it straight ahead? I would argue that achieving Vy is much more important than keeping the horizon in sight straight ahead. In many cases you have no visual reference (climb-out over unlit terrain, for instance) so that just trying to keep the horizon in sight straight ahead is a no-hoper. That could easily lead to CFIT.
That last example, of the night circuits, shows some pretty obvious poor technique on the part of the instructor. Not least, you should pick up on what the student is doing right and then try to put any corrections in a positive way.
To just ask a question with no obvious answer, i.e., "That's not right! What should you do differently?" is pretty poor. The student is going to do what he thinks is right so that you need to tell him what you think he should do differently! If he says, "Hold 70 knots," then you can just say, "Yes, that is right but don't forget that with an engine failure you do that is by lowering the nose." That gives him positive reinforcement of what he got right AND leads him to understand what you think is most important.
As to a flat climb to keep the horizon in sight, whatever happened to looking a bit off to the left side to see the horizon rather than expecting to see it straight ahead? I would argue that achieving Vy is much more important than keeping the horizon in sight straight ahead. In many cases you have no visual reference (climb-out over unlit terrain, for instance) so that just trying to keep the horizon in sight straight ahead is a no-hoper. That could easily lead to CFIT.
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"Hold 70 knots," then you can just say, "Yes, that is right but don't forget that with an engine failure you do that is by lowering the nose." That gives him positive reinforcement of what he got right AND leads him to understand what you think is most important.
Good point
As to a flat climb to keep the horizon in sight, whatever happened to looking a bit off to the left side to see the horizon rather than expecting to see it straight ahead? I would argue that achieving Vy is much more important than keeping the horizon in sight straight ahead. In many cases you have no visual reference (climb-out over unlit terrain, for instance) so that just trying to keep the horizon in sight straight ahead is a no-hoper. That could easily lead to CFIT. I did not tell him to do a flat climb, I wrote that he should struggle to see hz. If he loose it he should convert to instruments/Hz -not Airspeed as main instrument. (the reasons are less chance of leans, too low speed, situational awareness/the pilot is often inexperienced with instrument flying and should struggle to be visual) You know the alternative i guess, not flying on attitude at night. Speed is low and pilot notice and puts the nose way too far down to correct and opposite. I say again (most people know, but some dont): If you sit correct in a typical plane for schooling the correct attitude (cowling on Hz/stretch to see it if you like to sit low) will let you get correct angle of climb/Climb speed (Vy). Trim the angle and check speed. "Yes correct, its 80kts" or whatever the speed should be for that aircraft. If not ..correct what is wrong doing gentle corrections on attitude and retrim and the speed will be good/about correct. When the speed and attitude is perfect, retrim (you trim the speed not attitude but use attitude correction to get correct speed) And the most important point, if you need to go above hz with the nose, gentle correction, with full attention. (here is where I think the instructor has bad experience/I guess he strongly dislikes overcorrecting high speed with too high attitude especially at night and you will avoid it by flying cowling "on" attitude)
To look at the sides .. yes if you have good references there (but do you normally if there is nothing in front?)..In general I would not suggest it as a main reference at night. Taking off above sea etc./loosing hz because of lack of visual reference demand some instrument skills and artificial hz should be main reference.
For the flight described the student says it gave too low climb rate to see the hz: My comment was that in general it will NOT if you stretch your neck and if it will (strange airplane to take lesson three at night with?), use the artificial as main ref.
Good point
As to a flat climb to keep the horizon in sight, whatever happened to looking a bit off to the left side to see the horizon rather than expecting to see it straight ahead? I would argue that achieving Vy is much more important than keeping the horizon in sight straight ahead. In many cases you have no visual reference (climb-out over unlit terrain, for instance) so that just trying to keep the horizon in sight straight ahead is a no-hoper. That could easily lead to CFIT. I did not tell him to do a flat climb, I wrote that he should struggle to see hz. If he loose it he should convert to instruments/Hz -not Airspeed as main instrument. (the reasons are less chance of leans, too low speed, situational awareness/the pilot is often inexperienced with instrument flying and should struggle to be visual) You know the alternative i guess, not flying on attitude at night. Speed is low and pilot notice and puts the nose way too far down to correct and opposite. I say again (most people know, but some dont): If you sit correct in a typical plane for schooling the correct attitude (cowling on Hz/stretch to see it if you like to sit low) will let you get correct angle of climb/Climb speed (Vy). Trim the angle and check speed. "Yes correct, its 80kts" or whatever the speed should be for that aircraft. If not ..correct what is wrong doing gentle corrections on attitude and retrim and the speed will be good/about correct. When the speed and attitude is perfect, retrim (you trim the speed not attitude but use attitude correction to get correct speed) And the most important point, if you need to go above hz with the nose, gentle correction, with full attention. (here is where I think the instructor has bad experience/I guess he strongly dislikes overcorrecting high speed with too high attitude especially at night and you will avoid it by flying cowling "on" attitude)
To look at the sides .. yes if you have good references there (but do you normally if there is nothing in front?)..In general I would not suggest it as a main reference at night. Taking off above sea etc./loosing hz because of lack of visual reference demand some instrument skills and artificial hz should be main reference.
For the flight described the student says it gave too low climb rate to see the hz: My comment was that in general it will NOT if you stretch your neck and if it will (strange airplane to take lesson three at night with?), use the artificial as main ref.
Last edited by jager34; 12th Jan 2009 at 08:58.
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Well the must see the horizon I think is slightly missleading.
In the PA28,38 And most of the larger cessna's I have never been visual with the horizon over the nose and that by a 6' bloke with his head rubbing on the ceiling I have always been either down the side to get it or the instructor thing of looking out the side window.
I think the whole problem though was not what the instructor wanted (although he would have been giving me the same words of advise) It was the way he was running the lesson.
He obviously was making it up as he went along. Personally I would have taken it off you on the downwind debrief then given it back.
On a note though for an instructor the work load and stress is about 5 times as much as teaching during the day. And to be honest flying at night is sometimes the blind leading the blind I had 6 hours total night when I started doing qualifications.
And looking back I would have never have got that restriction removed its just not worth the money for all the work and the stress involved.
In the PA28,38 And most of the larger cessna's I have never been visual with the horizon over the nose and that by a 6' bloke with his head rubbing on the ceiling I have always been either down the side to get it or the instructor thing of looking out the side window.
I think the whole problem though was not what the instructor wanted (although he would have been giving me the same words of advise) It was the way he was running the lesson.
He obviously was making it up as he went along. Personally I would have taken it off you on the downwind debrief then given it back.
On a note though for an instructor the work load and stress is about 5 times as much as teaching during the day. And to be honest flying at night is sometimes the blind leading the blind I had 6 hours total night when I started doing qualifications.
And looking back I would have never have got that restriction removed its just not worth the money for all the work and the stress involved.
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I've done it once as an instructor, to a woman who was hell bent on becoming a commercial pilot ... 30 + hours to first solo and she then proceeded to get lost on the downwind, had to put out a pan call and get vectored to the runway ... a few other interesting episodes followed ... basically she was untrainable, just didnt have the mental capacity for basic situational awareness and multi tasking, once she set foot in the aircraft chaos just inevitably followed her. There was no way on god's green earth I was going to risk my career by signing this girl out on a PPL solo X/C, so when I heard she'd applied for a huge great loan to go and do a full time FATPL course I called her into the office and gave her a serious talking to. It was SO hard to do but honestly this woman had a good job and two kids to support, and she was going to jeopardize the lot, plus take on a dirty great bank loan to pursue a dream that in my professional opinion she didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding at.
But that was ONE person in the quite-a-few-hundred that I taught during my years of full time instructing, I would say it's a very small percentage of people who simply don't have the basic spatial and situational awareness capability to succeed.
I have, however, taught a few people who were basically ****holes and / or spoiled brats, who I have considered that while they may be intellectually capable, they will never ever get themselves a job due to their attitude problem. THOSE guys, hell yes, I just shut up and keep on taking their money
But that was ONE person in the quite-a-few-hundred that I taught during my years of full time instructing, I would say it's a very small percentage of people who simply don't have the basic spatial and situational awareness capability to succeed.
I have, however, taught a few people who were basically ****holes and / or spoiled brats, who I have considered that while they may be intellectually capable, they will never ever get themselves a job due to their attitude problem. THOSE guys, hell yes, I just shut up and keep on taking their money
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In the PA28,38 And most of the larger cessna's I have never been visual with the horizon over the nose and that by a 6' bloke with his head rubbing on the ceiling I have always been either down the side to get it or the instructor thing of looking out the side window.
Yes slightly misleading I agree. Important to fly correct attitude and important to fly correct IAS and important to be situational aware though. Can you combine those? Flying basic/simple airplanes you normally can.
If you do proper correction one finger/degree up or down when your speed is slightly deviating nobody should blame you.
Most of my hours I have in high performance jets, and I flew the old Saab Safir single piston and did I ever fly with those or planes demanding more nose high, for Vy, nose below the hz intentionally on t/o? No.
However, I am instructing the same as the instructor said about attitude schooling on a typical plane for schooling, this kind of flight. However, if i presume right, this instructor should have been aware of overcorrection down and possibly also briefed about it. Maybe he was even mixing with other airplane if the performance was too good on this airplane to get Vy keeping the Hz. Many PPL pilots do fly on speed during T/O as main ref. (paying too little attention to attitude) is my experience and its a bad habit. If you ask student how many degrees or cm hz change he suggest needed to correct different situations and you will find out.
If you know it, it will help/provide more precise pilotage.
Same for keypoint or when you start descent. How much should you put nose down? GP is 3 degrees. Student says artificial hz 3 degrees down? well what about the less power making you mush through?
Getting lost in pattern; who has not? Correct it fast though.
30 hours before solo; there could be hope. Some students just did not learn the importance of preparation. If you learn this student the procedures, possibly by more organized training than his instructor thought him: 3 steps before entering rwy, 3 steps on rwy before t/o. Two steps on base etc. He will then get the extra capacity that nobody knew he had. Quite a few "hopeless" PPLers are today good CPL pilots.
Did anyone say anything about confidence in this thread?
Yes slightly misleading I agree. Important to fly correct attitude and important to fly correct IAS and important to be situational aware though. Can you combine those? Flying basic/simple airplanes you normally can.
If you do proper correction one finger/degree up or down when your speed is slightly deviating nobody should blame you.
Most of my hours I have in high performance jets, and I flew the old Saab Safir single piston and did I ever fly with those or planes demanding more nose high, for Vy, nose below the hz intentionally on t/o? No.
However, I am instructing the same as the instructor said about attitude schooling on a typical plane for schooling, this kind of flight. However, if i presume right, this instructor should have been aware of overcorrection down and possibly also briefed about it. Maybe he was even mixing with other airplane if the performance was too good on this airplane to get Vy keeping the Hz. Many PPL pilots do fly on speed during T/O as main ref. (paying too little attention to attitude) is my experience and its a bad habit. If you ask student how many degrees or cm hz change he suggest needed to correct different situations and you will find out.
If you know it, it will help/provide more precise pilotage.
Same for keypoint or when you start descent. How much should you put nose down? GP is 3 degrees. Student says artificial hz 3 degrees down? well what about the less power making you mush through?
Getting lost in pattern; who has not? Correct it fast though.
30 hours before solo; there could be hope. Some students just did not learn the importance of preparation. If you learn this student the procedures, possibly by more organized training than his instructor thought him: 3 steps before entering rwy, 3 steps on rwy before t/o. Two steps on base etc. He will then get the extra capacity that nobody knew he had. Quite a few "hopeless" PPLers are today good CPL pilots.
Did anyone say anything about confidence in this thread?
Last edited by jager34; 12th Jan 2009 at 10:50.
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The point being made isn't I think what he was telling the student. More about how they were instructing the student.
Fannying about in the circuit is not the place to be teaching attitude flying.
The whole story makes me cringe that the instructor is getting the whole proccess of learning wrong. The differences of method of flying can be discussed until the cows come home.
Luke didn't you marry her and have your children? and she has turned out pretty good I think
Fannying about in the circuit is not the place to be teaching attitude flying.
The whole story makes me cringe that the instructor is getting the whole proccess of learning wrong. The differences of method of flying can be discussed until the cows come home.
Luke didn't you marry her and have your children? and she has turned out pretty good I think
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The point being made isn't I think what he was telling the student. More about how they were instructing the student.
His point yes. My point is that I support his technique about keeping Hz in sight and set proper attitude before chasing speed with no references. (very common mistake first flights in dark)
If I did not think students often do this poorly, and could learn from it, I would not have made a point out of it. And as I say, I belive neither him or myself intentionally would instruct; dont loose Hz, if the airplane demanded other attitude to reach and keep Vy smoothly
Fannying about in the circuit is not the place to be teaching attitude flying. No? In my opinion, T/O is perfect for instructing this to a rusty PPL pilot. Same with approach.
The whole story makes me cringe that the instructor is getting the whole proccess of learning wrong. The differences of method of flying can be discussed until the cows come home.In general, I do agree
His point yes. My point is that I support his technique about keeping Hz in sight and set proper attitude before chasing speed with no references. (very common mistake first flights in dark)
If I did not think students often do this poorly, and could learn from it, I would not have made a point out of it. And as I say, I belive neither him or myself intentionally would instruct; dont loose Hz, if the airplane demanded other attitude to reach and keep Vy smoothly
Fannying about in the circuit is not the place to be teaching attitude flying. No? In my opinion, T/O is perfect for instructing this to a rusty PPL pilot. Same with approach.
The whole story makes me cringe that the instructor is getting the whole proccess of learning wrong. The differences of method of flying can be discussed until the cows come home.In general, I do agree
Last edited by jager34; 12th Jan 2009 at 12:29.
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well we will agree to differ If there was any issues with the basics I used to leave for the training area which was to be honest 1 min to the north of the circuit. 10mins flying attitudes at night maybe an few pointers about what to do in case of an engine failure. Student is not stressed, I am not stressed The tower gets to watch Eastenders in peace. Back to the circuit sort the flare out. 3 goodun's taxi back in doing the lighting. Send them up solo for 30mins.
Next night do the nav and pfl's and some more solo.
Next night solo and thats the job done.
Just to add I am not a current Instructor of ppl's but the night intructing of FO's to land is a yearly event most of which have the sum total of there night qual under there belt and zero in the aircraft we fly. I am sure you have been there.
Next night do the nav and pfl's and some more solo.
Next night solo and thats the job done.
Just to add I am not a current Instructor of ppl's but the night intructing of FO's to land is a yearly event most of which have the sum total of there night qual under there belt and zero in the aircraft we fly. I am sure you have been there.
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There is more than one way to skin a cat. You might need to emphasise one thing with one student and something different with another so that I try to put as much in front of him (here "he" and "him" includes "she" and "her") in the pre-flight briefing as I think he can assimilate and then watch to see what bits he likes to use.
As you probably know, since about 40 years now the FAA has had us teaching the integrated use of the attitude instruments and visual references, beginning with the very first lessons.
There are plenty of places where a night flight means having to use the instruments to keep the airplane upright; all you need is some place with not enough lighting to define the horizon. A few points of light here and there on the surface and a cloudy sky means you cannot get the job done with basic VFR skills alone; that high-profile accident to John F. Kennedy Jnr was a sad reminder of how you can end up legally dead. It was VMC that night but he didn't have enough visual references to sort himself out over open water with his basic level of ability to fly on instruments.
I once had a young fellow who was supposedly teaching me to fly gliders. His bored, snobby tones (I think he was a lawyer in real life) coming from the back seat were just pointing out my all mistakes, even the little, bitty ones, rather than balancing that by complimenting me on, oh, I don't know, not actually putting the Schweizer 2-32 into a graveyard spiral and killing us both. That is to say, there is always something positive to say!
(Even when you are giving some no-hoper the kiss of death there is no need to be negative about it. "You know, someone of your ability would probably go much, much further in some other line of work than aviation." He can take that one away and think it over a bit before he reads between the lines, or not, usually but then you DID tell him.)
Back on the ground the CFI from Hell gave me a limp handshake and the usual "It was a pleasure to fly with you," when I told him that, no, it sounded to me as though he had not been enjoying flying with me at all, so that I had to ask what, exactly, he was getting out of that! (It sure wasn't the $5/hour glider instruction paid so that I had to guess he really got a kick out of putting people down.)
I ended up with a crusty, old ex-Navy carrier pilot who really loved flying. A few trips with him and I had learned exactly what I needed for my test, where I think I could have flown with that snotty lawyer for a year and just got worse and worse.
As you probably know, since about 40 years now the FAA has had us teaching the integrated use of the attitude instruments and visual references, beginning with the very first lessons.
There are plenty of places where a night flight means having to use the instruments to keep the airplane upright; all you need is some place with not enough lighting to define the horizon. A few points of light here and there on the surface and a cloudy sky means you cannot get the job done with basic VFR skills alone; that high-profile accident to John F. Kennedy Jnr was a sad reminder of how you can end up legally dead. It was VMC that night but he didn't have enough visual references to sort himself out over open water with his basic level of ability to fly on instruments.
I once had a young fellow who was supposedly teaching me to fly gliders. His bored, snobby tones (I think he was a lawyer in real life) coming from the back seat were just pointing out my all mistakes, even the little, bitty ones, rather than balancing that by complimenting me on, oh, I don't know, not actually putting the Schweizer 2-32 into a graveyard spiral and killing us both. That is to say, there is always something positive to say!
(Even when you are giving some no-hoper the kiss of death there is no need to be negative about it. "You know, someone of your ability would probably go much, much further in some other line of work than aviation." He can take that one away and think it over a bit before he reads between the lines, or not, usually but then you DID tell him.)
Back on the ground the CFI from Hell gave me a limp handshake and the usual "It was a pleasure to fly with you," when I told him that, no, it sounded to me as though he had not been enjoying flying with me at all, so that I had to ask what, exactly, he was getting out of that! (It sure wasn't the $5/hour glider instruction paid so that I had to guess he really got a kick out of putting people down.)
I ended up with a crusty, old ex-Navy carrier pilot who really loved flying. A few trips with him and I had learned exactly what I needed for my test, where I think I could have flown with that snotty lawyer for a year and just got worse and worse.
I have been involved, as a student, with 4 "flying schools" in my time, and my experience is thus;
I did my PPL nearly 20 yrs ago at a small airfield/flying school in the UK. The instructor was a "career" instructor, very experienced and enthusiastic for teaching others. He realised i did have some inherent ability and enthusiasm and we got on well, in fact we became firm friends. There were some others training there at the time who were perhaps less "air minded" and did stupid things, but to my knowledge they never had the pi** taken out of them.
A few years later i went to the states to do the full FAA CPL, multi, IR, the lot. It was a bigger school but was run on a very professional and friendly basis. I would recommend them but they are no longer trading.
I then got a job flying bizjets, did my training at professional TRTO's. no problems there.
I had nothing to do with "flying schools" for several years, then decided it would be a good idea to get JAA qualified. I was in for a shock.
The first i approached, (just off the M25 not a million miles from EGSS) the lady i spoke to could not have been more disinterested. I have an FAA ATP, and just needed what was "required" for the tests but she kept making excuses. No problem, i walked away.
Anyway, I started flying with another CPL school, with a young instructor who had gone thru his qualifications it seemed at the speed of light. One day, while doing steep turns he delighted in telling me about another student who, while doing steep turns, let the speed bleed back to almost a stall. He proudly said that he took control, flew back to the airfield and "grounded" said student. My impression was that an instructor is there to INSTRUCT not act as some sort of pseudo aviation GOD.....He was an arrogant cocky little so and so and i'm sure if he is in "real" professional flying now that has been knocked out of him. Anyway, i made my excuses and left that school. My last school was ok, did the job and i got my JAA ticket with them, however my instructor there was of the "silent" type. He would say little during the training details then present me with a list of errors at the end...OK could you not tell me as we are going along? Its far more effective for mental reinforcement being told at the time, keep the hints and tips flowing, and if its all going good then say nothing. With CPL schools in the UK, in my experience, there is an attitude of "you're in the army now" and if you are doing the professional license they seem to think that they can treat you with no respect or customer service. In fact you are not seen as a customer, and there is the attitude that they are doing you a favour.
I have no axe to grind, i have my licenses and thankfully "out of it" with regards to these outfits. I often tell people who seek my advice that with these schools i got my JAA license in SPITE of them, NOT BECAUSE OF THEM.
I did my PPL nearly 20 yrs ago at a small airfield/flying school in the UK. The instructor was a "career" instructor, very experienced and enthusiastic for teaching others. He realised i did have some inherent ability and enthusiasm and we got on well, in fact we became firm friends. There were some others training there at the time who were perhaps less "air minded" and did stupid things, but to my knowledge they never had the pi** taken out of them.
A few years later i went to the states to do the full FAA CPL, multi, IR, the lot. It was a bigger school but was run on a very professional and friendly basis. I would recommend them but they are no longer trading.
I then got a job flying bizjets, did my training at professional TRTO's. no problems there.
I had nothing to do with "flying schools" for several years, then decided it would be a good idea to get JAA qualified. I was in for a shock.
The first i approached, (just off the M25 not a million miles from EGSS) the lady i spoke to could not have been more disinterested. I have an FAA ATP, and just needed what was "required" for the tests but she kept making excuses. No problem, i walked away.
Anyway, I started flying with another CPL school, with a young instructor who had gone thru his qualifications it seemed at the speed of light. One day, while doing steep turns he delighted in telling me about another student who, while doing steep turns, let the speed bleed back to almost a stall. He proudly said that he took control, flew back to the airfield and "grounded" said student. My impression was that an instructor is there to INSTRUCT not act as some sort of pseudo aviation GOD.....He was an arrogant cocky little so and so and i'm sure if he is in "real" professional flying now that has been knocked out of him. Anyway, i made my excuses and left that school. My last school was ok, did the job and i got my JAA ticket with them, however my instructor there was of the "silent" type. He would say little during the training details then present me with a list of errors at the end...OK could you not tell me as we are going along? Its far more effective for mental reinforcement being told at the time, keep the hints and tips flowing, and if its all going good then say nothing. With CPL schools in the UK, in my experience, there is an attitude of "you're in the army now" and if you are doing the professional license they seem to think that they can treat you with no respect or customer service. In fact you are not seen as a customer, and there is the attitude that they are doing you a favour.
I have no axe to grind, i have my licenses and thankfully "out of it" with regards to these outfits. I often tell people who seek my advice that with these schools i got my JAA license in SPITE of them, NOT BECAUSE OF THEM.
