Visa Question
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Joined: Jun 2006
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From: France & UK
Visa Question
Just a quick question with regards to visa requirements for the ATPL theory if carried out in the USA. I understand that ou need an training visa if conducting flight training, but does this go for the theory?
Your advice would be great!
VFR
Your advice would be great!
VFR
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 93
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From: Milan, Italy
I am also struggling to understand if I need a visa just to do a Night Qualification in USA (some say that it is considered training if the training exceeds 18 hours).
So I looked into the Code of Federal Regulations where it says something about the 18 hrs but it is so complicated that it is not clear.
I decided the the risk of having troubles in the USA it is not worth it and I will spend 200$ and some hours at the embassy to get the VISA.
My advice is: if it is training than you need a VISA.
Cheers
So I looked into the Code of Federal Regulations where it says something about the 18 hrs but it is so complicated that it is not clear.
I decided the the risk of having troubles in the USA it is not worth it and I will spend 200$ and some hours at the embassy to get the VISA.
My advice is: if it is training than you need a VISA.
Cheers
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 71
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From: FL
If you are going to the US for more than 18 hours of study (flight and ground training)per week and it is the primary reason for visiting, then you will require a visa. If not, then according to the rules you don't even qualify for one.
My suggestion would be that if you are in doubt, instead of listening to advice on a forum, or trying to search through the stupid number of immigration websites, call your embassy. If will be a lot cheaper than wasting $200 of flying money. Call the information line and tell them you're visiting for tourism, but want to do a short course of study, 5(?) hours total for a night rating, and ask them if you need a visa. You stand a better chance of getting an accurate answer, although given my experiences with immigration, no guarantees!
My suggestion would be that if you are in doubt, instead of listening to advice on a forum, or trying to search through the stupid number of immigration websites, call your embassy. If will be a lot cheaper than wasting $200 of flying money. Call the information line and tell them you're visiting for tourism, but want to do a short course of study, 5(?) hours total for a night rating, and ask them if you need a visa. You stand a better chance of getting an accurate answer, although given my experiences with immigration, no guarantees!
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 93
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From: Milan, Italy
nh2301, you are right: as you said: "although given my experiences with immigration, no guarantees!"
Even if my embassy told me that I do not need a visa, I would consider getting one.
What if the guy at immigration control thinks differently? You can be sure that he/she would not care about what the embassy said. And then, I haven't got direct experience, but, given the controls for US immigration, in the least of cases you will waste a lot of time, and I do not even want to think about the worst case....
I know, it sounds wrong but it's just a matter of weighing risk and cost.
Even if my embassy told me that I do not need a visa, I would consider getting one.
What if the guy at immigration control thinks differently? You can be sure that he/she would not care about what the embassy said. And then, I haven't got direct experience, but, given the controls for US immigration, in the least of cases you will waste a lot of time, and I do not even want to think about the worst case....
I know, it sounds wrong but it's just a matter of weighing risk and cost.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 734
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From: London, GB
Opinions are like 
, everybody's got one.
8 CFR 214.2(m)(9)(iii) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic curriculum, other than in a language training program except as provided in §214.3(a)(2)(iv), certified by a designated school official to consist of at least eighteen clock hours of attendance a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of classroom instruction, or at least twenty-two clock hours a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of shop or laboratory work[.]
Training for a JAR-FCL NQ does not require (and cannot satisfy the above requirements for) an M-class visa.
, everybody's got one.8 CFR 214.2(m)(9)(iii) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic curriculum, other than in a language training program except as provided in §214.3(a)(2)(iv), certified by a designated school official to consist of at least eighteen clock hours of attendance a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of classroom instruction, or at least twenty-two clock hours a week if the dominant part of the course of study consists of shop or laboratory work[.]
Training for a JAR-FCL NQ does not require (and cannot satisfy the above requirements for) an M-class visa.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 93
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From: Milan, Italy
There is also another subparagraph in 214.2 where the eighteen hours is mentioned.
But the point here is that, taken in isolation, this paragraph does not say much. One should read all 214.2 paragraph or at least what comes before the 214.2(m)(9)(iii), since this bit is a condition for something which is stated before. Try to post the whole 214.2 and see if the picture is clearer ;-)
But the point here is that, taken in isolation, this paragraph does not say much. One should read all 214.2 paragraph or at least what comes before the 214.2(m)(9)(iii), since this bit is a condition for something which is stated before. Try to post the whole 214.2 and see if the picture is clearer ;-)
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 734
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From: London, GB
Mattia, the paragraphs under 8 CFR 214.2, (a), (b), (c), etc, correspond to the various visa classes established under §§101(a)(15)(A), 101(a)(15)(B), 101(a)(15)(C) of the Immigration and Nationality Act 1952 (as amended). Therefore §214.2 can be limited to paragraph (m).
INA §101(a)(15)(M)(i), establishes the M-1 class of nonimmigrant visa:
The other paragraph mentioning 18-hours is under paragraph (m)(9)(iv) and is therefore irrelevant.
INA §101(a)(15)(M)(i), establishes the M-1 class of nonimmigrant visa:
(M) (i) an alien [...] who seeks to enter the United States temporarily and solely for the purpose of pursuing a full course of study at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution (other than in a language training program) in the United States [...]
Applicable sub-paragraphs under 8 CFR 214.2(m) are:(1) Admission of student, (2) Form I–20 ID copy, (3) Admission of the spouse and minor children of an M–1 student, (4) Temporary absence, (5) Period of stay, (6-9) [Reserved], (9) Full course of study, (10) Extension of stay, (11) School transfer, (12) Change in educational objective, (13) Employment, (14) Practical training, (15) Decision on application for extension, permission to transfer to another school, or permission to accept employment for practical training, (16) Reinstatement to student status, (17) Spouse and children of M–1 student, (18) Current name and address, (19) Special rules for certain border commuter students, (20) Remittance of the fee.
Under paragraph (m)(9), full course of study:(i) Study at a community college of junior college [...]
(ii) Study at a postsecdonary vocational or business school [...]
(iii) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic curriculum [...]
(iv) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic high school curriculum [...]
(v) On-line courses/distance education programs [...]
(vi) Reduced course load
See here for formatted version of 8 CFR 214.2(m).(ii) Study at a postsecdonary vocational or business school [...]
(iii) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic curriculum [...]
(iv) Study in a vocational or other nonacademic high school curriculum [...]
(v) On-line courses/distance education programs [...]
(vi) Reduced course load
The other paragraph mentioning 18-hours is under paragraph (m)(9)(iv) and is therefore irrelevant.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 93
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From: Milan, Italy
ok little bit clearer now. Also look at:
ProPublish Reference
for INA §101(a)(15)(M)(i).
But to me still a little bit tricky: what, for example, if the school declares that an IR course is less that 18 hrs a week (which is possible)?
Then you would not need a VISA but then this would probably contradict the TSA requirement (which is NOT about VISA, anyway).
Ok, anyway I don't want to drag this forever.
ProPublish Reference
for INA §101(a)(15)(M)(i).
But to me still a little bit tricky: what, for example, if the school declares that an IR course is less that 18 hrs a week (which is possible)?
Then you would not need a VISA but then this would probably contradict the TSA requirement (which is NOT about VISA, anyway).
Ok, anyway I don't want to drag this forever.
Last edited by mattia_70; 9th December 2008 at 17:02.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: EGYD
It is clear to everyone here that you are entering the US to enter flight training.
As this is will be your main objective selfin even posted the text for you.
= Visa.
School I went to made night qual students have visas for this reason - Don't get caught out of status in the states - it's not worth the hassle.
As this is will be your main objective selfin even posted the text for you.
solely for the purpose of pursuing a full course of study at an established vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution
School I went to made night qual students have visas for this reason - Don't get caught out of status in the states - it's not worth the hassle.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 734
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From: London, GB
A night qualification does not meet the hours requirements for a full course of study as defined above. Your options are a J visa, or a B visa (but only if the night qualification is incidental to a trip for the purpose of pleasure or business).
Many here appear to adopt the attitude that since the schools have been pushing M visas for so long, unchallenged, the practice equates with legal compliance. The PPL and IR can be justified under the M visa rules as training very often meets the hours requirement. A NQ doesn't.
Pedantic view, but those are the rules.
Many here appear to adopt the attitude that since the schools have been pushing M visas for so long, unchallenged, the practice equates with legal compliance. The PPL and IR can be justified under the M visa rules as training very often meets the hours requirement. A NQ doesn't.
Pedantic view, but those are the rules.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 71
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From: FL
Who goes to the US for a night rating?
Unless you're there for a day and fly home, it would be hard to say the NQ is the primary reason for the visit. If it's combined with hour building then, again, the NQ is not the primary reason for the visit.
A NQ is not a full course of study, so don't waste your money on the visa or the school which is happily charging you $200 for processing the paperwork for you.
Unless you're there for a day and fly home, it would be hard to say the NQ is the primary reason for the visit. If it's combined with hour building then, again, the NQ is not the primary reason for the visit.
A NQ is not a full course of study, so don't waste your money on the visa or the school which is happily charging you $200 for processing the paperwork for you.
