Mindnumbingly useless JAR objectives
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Mindnumbingly useless JAR objectives
As pointed out in another thread there is so much ridiculous crap in the atpl syllabus .What are peoples memories or thoughts both those working in airlines and otherwise who have studied or are studying this material on what is the most pointless and most useless information the CAA bung at us ?
Having had a member of the CAA sat in a classroom with us once and hearing his thoughts on it , it comes as no surprise that we have to learn some of this crap after all , he was Nav in the raf in the sixties so he is bound to know what knowledge is best for modern commercial pilots.
Fire extinguishers location and quantity
QFF's
Height and position of registration marks
Spring to mind
any more????
RANT OVER
Having had a member of the CAA sat in a classroom with us once and hearing his thoughts on it , it comes as no surprise that we have to learn some of this crap after all , he was Nav in the raf in the sixties so he is bound to know what knowledge is best for modern commercial pilots.
Fire extinguishers location and quantity
QFF's
Height and position of registration marks
Spring to mind
any more????
RANT OVER
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I gotta totally agree with you on this.
Anyway I have a Question, Are these questions the same in all the JAA Countries or do they differ? I know that, Romania, Serbia, Turkey have different question Banks and they are in the JAA. I know that the Romanian Question Bank has about 4000 Questions and by studying that you can clear the exams and still get the License which is the same as what a person in Belgium or UK gets upon completing exams which are pretty much more tougher.
Please enlighten me on this.
Thanks,
Arun(FFP)
Anyway I have a Question, Are these questions the same in all the JAA Countries or do they differ? I know that, Romania, Serbia, Turkey have different question Banks and they are in the JAA. I know that the Romanian Question Bank has about 4000 Questions and by studying that you can clear the exams and still get the License which is the same as what a person in Belgium or UK gets upon completing exams which are pretty much more tougher.
Please enlighten me on this.
Thanks,
Arun(FFP)
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I believe if you take a JAR exam then all questions come from the same CQB but I wudnt swear to it . I cannot comment on other authorities as I have never done the exams through them.
I do agree Dartagnan maybe its just a six month test of your resolve
I do agree Dartagnan maybe its just a six month test of your resolve
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Hey Gizzajob,
I took the CPL exams in Serbia, and for the FATPL I am enrolled to Bristol and I really can see the difference. Thats why I was wondering, Why do they differ? Because I know some guys who are doing their ATPL exams in Romania and Moldova and they just have to memorise 3000-4000 Questions
I took the CPL exams in Serbia, and for the FATPL I am enrolled to Bristol and I really can see the difference. Thats why I was wondering, Why do they differ? Because I know some guys who are doing their ATPL exams in Romania and Moldova and they just have to memorise 3000-4000 Questions
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Well there is a reason why JAR licence is the most sought after and prized . Although there are ways of getting hold of question banks and memorising questions the subjects are there to be understood , think of flyin on an airliner with a guy who knows his stuff and a guy who memorised a shed load of questions ???? who wud you rather fly with . This is a much bigger argument and is coincidentally running further down the thread list .
Perhaps Bruce Lee said it best "Absorb what is useful"
Perhaps Bruce Lee said it best "Absorb what is useful"
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You think that's bad, when I did my radio navigation exam in which you always expect a question on the Omega system. They had just decommissoned it permanently. So it was obsolete.
I wondered how if it would appear as a question. It did but using the phrase 'Using a hyperbolic radionavigation system of your choice'.
I wrote something to the effect that it was no longer in operation but the OMEGA system was.........
I passed.
There is a lot of useless information to learn in the JAR exams but hidden in all the noise there are a few pearls of useful stuff.
Mention of the CAA Ex RAF Nav, reminds me of my theory that pilot exams are the last revenge of the professional navigator. Their job being obsolete, they wrote the pilot navigation exams for us. I can just see them at their chart table, squinting under the flickering light of a dim bulb, sniggering as they write the tests. 'So I'm obsolete am I? Well lets see if these glory boys know their rhumb lines from the Mercators and their PNRs from their cocked hats.'
Of course Engineers write the technical stuff and meteorologists the met. Lawyers the law. Not a pilot among them.
It's conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy!
I wondered how if it would appear as a question. It did but using the phrase 'Using a hyperbolic radionavigation system of your choice'.
I wrote something to the effect that it was no longer in operation but the OMEGA system was......... I passed.
There is a lot of useless information to learn in the JAR exams but hidden in all the noise there are a few pearls of useful stuff.
Mention of the CAA Ex RAF Nav, reminds me of my theory that pilot exams are the last revenge of the professional navigator. Their job being obsolete, they wrote the pilot navigation exams for us. I can just see them at their chart table, squinting under the flickering light of a dim bulb, sniggering as they write the tests. 'So I'm obsolete am I? Well lets see if these glory boys know their rhumb lines from the Mercators and their PNRs from their cocked hats.'
Of course Engineers write the technical stuff and meteorologists the met. Lawyers the law. Not a pilot among them.
It's conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy!
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Seconded. General Navigation was clearly dreamed up by a group of embittered and redundant navigators as a way of getting back at pilots. I've said it before and I'll say it again - out in the real world, the only bit of gen. nav I use on a daily basis is the 3 times table.
But it's not just general nav:
- What is the orbital altitude of GPS satellites?
- What is the minimum distance an aircraft which has been subject to unlawful interference must be parked from other aircraft?
The ATPLs are a hoop-jumping exercise, nothing more.
But it's not just general nav:
- What is the orbital altitude of GPS satellites?
- What is the minimum distance an aircraft which has been subject to unlawful interference must be parked from other aircraft?
The ATPLs are a hoop-jumping exercise, nothing more.
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Can you imagine a scenario where you finally arrive back in the cockpit after spending hours doing your walk around.
Captain: "Where the hell have you been?"
You: "I'm sorry I've been so long it's just I was measuring the cut in points on the fuselage and I think there's been a terrible mistake. There should be an additional line between the corners as they are too widely spaced".
Captain: "Well done for spotting that! I've decided to cancel the flight anyway as whilst you were outside I've noticed the manufacturers are using the wrong frequencies on both the GPS and the Weather Radar. Also one of the IRS seems to be missing an accelerometer - I think is a manufacturing fault."
You: "Ah you've just reminded me whilst I was checking the top of the fuselage I also noticed that Boeing seem to have put the GPS antenna in the wrong place".
Captain: "Okay, this planes not going anywhere today".
I see the ATPL ground exams as trial by pointless bullsh1t. The purpose is to test commitment and ability to digest large qualities of information and regurgitate it. This ensures that newly qualified pilots have what it takes to get themselves through the ground study required for a type rating. They also make lots of money for the FTOs and the CAA/JAA.
However, lets be honest here there are far more effective ways of training new pilots that could be used than the current system.
Captain: "Where the hell have you been?"
You: "I'm sorry I've been so long it's just I was measuring the cut in points on the fuselage and I think there's been a terrible mistake. There should be an additional line between the corners as they are too widely spaced".
Captain: "Well done for spotting that! I've decided to cancel the flight anyway as whilst you were outside I've noticed the manufacturers are using the wrong frequencies on both the GPS and the Weather Radar. Also one of the IRS seems to be missing an accelerometer - I think is a manufacturing fault."
You: "Ah you've just reminded me whilst I was checking the top of the fuselage I also noticed that Boeing seem to have put the GPS antenna in the wrong place".
Captain: "Okay, this planes not going anywhere today".
I see the ATPL ground exams as trial by pointless bullsh1t. The purpose is to test commitment and ability to digest large qualities of information and regurgitate it. This ensures that newly qualified pilots have what it takes to get themselves through the ground study required for a type rating. They also make lots of money for the FTOs and the CAA/JAA.
However, lets be honest here there are far more effective ways of training new pilots that could be used than the current system.
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If you fixed-wing guys think they're bad, have a thought for us rotary chaps! Yup, we sit the same exams (except PoF). It is IMPOSSIBLE with a helicopter licence to fly an aircraft with more than 19 passengers, we do not circumnavigate the globe in hours, but rather days, very very few go over 10,000 ft and as for IAS at 250kts!!!
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Ecept Whirly as of 1st November it has all changed!! The ATPL(H) will no longer use a lot of the ATPL(A) stuff. Trouble is, very few FTOs know what the new syllabus is yet!!
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The minds of those
The ones that set the examinations always have an answer!
Years ago when doing my training in the South Land, we were told that the examinations were designed as a mind exercise, to see if we could use it.
Sounds a bit like the Latin Language!
Tmb
Years ago when doing my training in the South Land, we were told that the examinations were designed as a mind exercise, to see if we could use it.
Sounds a bit like the Latin Language!
Tmb
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Whirls , I was told when we were doing supersonic stuff that we had to know it just in case one day they re inevented concorde or some other such shxt. One day they may have helis that fly at FL110000000 at mach 2.6 ,so the CAA now know that when they do you will be prepared with your vast well thought out CAA education .
Oh yeh and , I was told , its just in case you end up flying military jets . Yeh cos if I could do that I would still spend god knows how much on my groundschool wouldnt I and besides im 39 dont think the RAF would have me back , maybe as a chock or oily rag or something but certainly not a steely eyed sky god
Oh yeh and , I was told , its just in case you end up flying military jets . Yeh cos if I could do that I would still spend god knows how much on my groundschool wouldnt I
and besides im 39 dont think the RAF would have me back , maybe as a chock or oily rag or something but certainly not a steely eyed sky god
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Unfortunately its a right of passage. Work hard, learn the bits that seem relevant and try and understand them well. Rote learn the other crap and hit the Bristol question bank before the exams and you will get a high pass. Your instructors will hopefully have a handle of what is important to know for the future.
As an aside I remember one of my line trainers telling me that we weren't doing an IR test on a VOR approach in a A320. Hence use all the available aids. That means I can "cheat" and look at his screens for situational awareness of where the runway is, look out the window if visual, and do whatever it takes, just land safely at the right place, at the right speed and on the centreline. That to me is the aim of the game at the end of the day and not the amount of inane irrelevant crap you can retain. Thank god line flying gets away from that. There are no tricks and no one is out to get you. Everything you need to know is written out in plain language in OPS and flight manuals.
Good luck and work hard.
As an aside I remember one of my line trainers telling me that we weren't doing an IR test on a VOR approach in a A320. Hence use all the available aids. That means I can "cheat" and look at his screens for situational awareness of where the runway is, look out the window if visual, and do whatever it takes, just land safely at the right place, at the right speed and on the centreline. That to me is the aim of the game at the end of the day and not the amount of inane irrelevant crap you can retain. Thank god line flying gets away from that. There are no tricks and no one is out to get you. Everything you need to know is written out in plain language in OPS and flight manuals.
Good luck and work hard.
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I do not agree!
All well and good pottkettle saying that its all in the ops manuals. I would like to hope that any airline pilot worth his sort knows his JAR fuel policy and relevant distances without having to reach over and read up. Do you? Shall I wait five minutes so you can find out? So I wonder if you actually know what a contaminated runway is or what the confines of rvsm airspace are without your trusty ops manual? Never mind the limitations of the aircaft you are flying!
As for the height and sizes of markings on aircraft etc, when did anyone last see a question on that? Common, we are being a bit silly now eh?
GIZZAJOB, it usually helps if the pilots and crew know where the emergency equipment is stowed on the aircraft for obvious reasons. Unfortunately for you, if you are lucky enough, you will have to prove this every year to your employer.
I would spend as much time learning all of this JAR c##p as you put it. Jobs are a bit thin on the ground at the moment. I am amazed that you find time to whinge about this online. Just get on with your exams and pray that you can get a job at the end of your training.
Now back to studying those ops manuals. LPC/OPC next week. Drat.
As for the height and sizes of markings on aircraft etc, when did anyone last see a question on that? Common, we are being a bit silly now eh?
GIZZAJOB, it usually helps if the pilots and crew know where the emergency equipment is stowed on the aircraft for obvious reasons. Unfortunately for you, if you are lucky enough, you will have to prove this every year to your employer.
I would spend as much time learning all of this JAR c##p as you put it. Jobs are a bit thin on the ground at the moment. I am amazed that you find time to whinge about this online. Just get on with your exams and pray that you can get a job at the end of your training.
Now back to studying those ops manuals. LPC/OPC next week. Drat.
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Shaun old boy , take this thread in the manner its meant dude Its a thread designed to encourage people to take the piss and have a bit of a giggle at the expense of the CAA , Unfortunately I for one am having a giggle at now you for being so anal . I dont need to study for the exams I assume passing them already means I dont have to .
As you point out though If i am ever lucky enough to get an airline job then they will put me on some course specific to the aircraft Ill be flying , during that course maybe they will show me where the fire extinguishers and crash axes are and give me some sort of performance input in line with the procedures laid down in the ops manual . Even in my exam which i concentrated and studied hard for the CAA didnt not think it appropriate to examine me on performance of the mythical MRJT ,oh no they gave me a big CAP and asked two questions on the SEP , thus preparing me very well for my transition onto the boeing 73A320 SKY TAXI .
However I am sure on your TR the instructors gasped in awe as you correctly located all the emergency equipment without prompting having remembered your detailed instruction in such matters , they fell off their chairs when everything on your base check aircraft failed and you correctly worked out the grivation of a polar stereographic mercator conformal lamberts meat pies chart and got everyone safely down again using only knowledge gained on the atpl course
Well done you
This response was just a silly little piss take and is no way representative of the authors ,the CAA's, any JAR employee , His Holines the pope ,Basil Brush's or the president of the democratic republic of congo's personal views and shouldnt be treated accordingly .
Right Im gonna take sound advice and go study how many crash axes an aircraft with 701 seats has for when Im lucky enough to get a job on dash 8 , Ill show em
As you point out though If i am ever lucky enough to get an airline job then they will put me on some course specific to the aircraft Ill be flying , during that course maybe they will show me where the fire extinguishers and crash axes are and give me some sort of performance input in line with the procedures laid down in the ops manual . Even in my exam which i concentrated and studied hard for the CAA didnt not think it appropriate to examine me on performance of the mythical MRJT ,oh no they gave me a big CAP and asked two questions on the SEP , thus preparing me very well for my transition onto the boeing 73A320 SKY TAXI .
However I am sure on your TR the instructors gasped in awe as you correctly located all the emergency equipment without prompting having remembered your detailed instruction in such matters , they fell off their chairs when everything on your base check aircraft failed and you correctly worked out the grivation of a polar stereographic mercator conformal lamberts meat pies chart and got everyone safely down again using only knowledge gained on the atpl course
Well done you
This response was just a silly little piss take and is no way representative of the authors ,the CAA's, any JAR employee , His Holines the pope ,Basil Brush's or the president of the democratic republic of congo's personal views and shouldnt be treated accordingly .
Right Im gonna take sound advice and go study how many crash axes an aircraft with 701 seats has for when Im lucky enough to get a job on dash 8 , Ill show em
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You all should go whine next to engineers.
They read tougher theory than ATPL theory and for 5 years.
And how much do they use in real life when they get a job?
10 % maybe
?
Eikido
They read tougher theory than ATPL theory and for 5 years.
And how much do they use in real life when they get a job?
10 % maybe
?Eikido
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Right Im gonna take sound advice and go study how many crash axes an aircraft with 701 seats has for when Im lucky enough to get a job on dash 8 , Ill show em
I also know where we hide the keys . . .
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I have kicked this idea around a few times. If I wrote the ATPL syllabus it would focus on different things.
G-SXTY has alluded to one already, 3x table.
Rostering. How to maximise your flying for minimal effort.
Allowances. Ties in with rostering.
Contract negotiation. Use of Photoshop is a distinct advantage.
How to jump seniority queues. See skills with photoshop.
QRH and Checklist identification.
How to sound cool on the radio modules.
Offshore or onshore. Ties in with Contracts and allowances.
Human Factors. AKA don't screw the crew, also known as pilot error.
Every thing else is just padding.
G-SXTY has alluded to one already, 3x table.
Rostering. How to maximise your flying for minimal effort.
Allowances. Ties in with rostering.
Contract negotiation. Use of Photoshop is a distinct advantage.
How to jump seniority queues. See skills with photoshop.
QRH and Checklist identification.
How to sound cool on the radio modules.
Offshore or onshore. Ties in with Contracts and allowances.
Human Factors. AKA don't screw the crew, also known as pilot error.
Every thing else is just padding.
