End of ATPL bank funding?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its a dream that some young people have had and will always have, some people just want to do it NOW...
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone explain to me why they think that's a good idea? It's a genuine question, I really am curious as to the logic behind starting off on commercial training at the moment
I was once a zombie and nearly went into the industry at the last downturn 9/11. That for me was a wake up call - went away and worked hard; 5yrs later got me in the RHS of a jet.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is an army of Wannabe Zombies out there - no matter how fast you re-load the shotgun they just keep on coming. Moaning soft platitudes about dreams and waiving tattered loan application forms in the air. They are an unstoppable force who will not rest on the face of this earth until they reach their sacred tomb on the outskirts of Kiddlington or on its exact opposite location on the far side of the planet in New Zealand.
Resistance Is Futile!
Resistance Is Futile!
For all you wannabees who aspire to jump into the RHS of big shiney bird - read reddos post at least three times and hope you maybe beat the other guy to the 206 job......
Amen Reddo .......
Thats nothing we loved in a shoe..........
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Nurries. 
Most of us who advise caution etc don't want a penny/cent from you. ie No vested interest other than to make sure you don't make the same mistakes that others (or indeed ourselves) have made.
Good luck.
G-SPOTs Lost...
I wouldn't mention that in an interview...
Most of us who advise caution etc don't want a penny/cent from you. ie No vested interest other than to make sure you don't make the same mistakes that others (or indeed ourselves) have made.Good luck.
G-SPOTs Lost...
Thats nothing we loved in a shoe..........
I wouldn't mention that in an interview...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: End of 27L
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redsnail - you should have gone integrated - could have saved yourself a lot of trouble! 
Seriously though, there is still evidence of recently graduated 'wannabes' getting into the rhs of 320's & 737's in the last month (two guy's I know completed MCC in July, one integrated the other mod, started type ratings last week-not sponsored). Additionally, the fact that NJE is expecting to commence cadet type training in Nov (I believe you said on another thread) is still fuelling the fire. All the good advice given here by the professional community will continue to go unheeded until such time as no one is getting jobs after licence issue; I'm surprised that there are still low houred people getting jobs now in the EU but they are. As someone has said, it is a little like the lottery mentality-you only have a chance if you have a go, & this aligned with a very poor understanding of the industry will mean that wannabes will continue to be drawn in by the marketing spin.
What we don't see any measure of is how many freshly minted CPL/IR's never reach the lambswool comfort of that ellusive right-hand seat (or obtain any gainful flying employment). There must be an enormous amount of people out there who have not actually used the licence they invested so much time & money into; always remember that the selection that the big FTO's conduct is more to do with suitability for training which is not the same as suitability for employment.
Good Luck!
Seriously though, there is still evidence of recently graduated 'wannabes' getting into the rhs of 320's & 737's in the last month (two guy's I know completed MCC in July, one integrated the other mod, started type ratings last week-not sponsored). Additionally, the fact that NJE is expecting to commence cadet type training in Nov (I believe you said on another thread) is still fuelling the fire. All the good advice given here by the professional community will continue to go unheeded until such time as no one is getting jobs after licence issue; I'm surprised that there are still low houred people getting jobs now in the EU but they are. As someone has said, it is a little like the lottery mentality-you only have a chance if you have a go, & this aligned with a very poor understanding of the industry will mean that wannabes will continue to be drawn in by the marketing spin.
What we don't see any measure of is how many freshly minted CPL/IR's never reach the lambswool comfort of that ellusive right-hand seat (or obtain any gainful flying employment). There must be an enormous amount of people out there who have not actually used the licence they invested so much time & money into; always remember that the selection that the big FTO's conduct is more to do with suitability for training which is not the same as suitability for employment.
Good Luck!
Last edited by Tootles the Taxi; 17th Sep 2008 at 18:51.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Tootles - 'you funny guy'
Funnily enough, no such thing as "integrated" in Oz when I did it (more than 20 years ago ). Whether you learnt full time or part time, it was the same licence issued by CASA. (As opposed to the former UK system before JAA).
Besides, I didn't have the cash to pay for it so I had to earn and learn.
Life's a journey, not a destination. While the journey's been a challenge at times
overall, it was fun and I saw a lot and made some brilliant friends.
Now for some vino, I love days off.
Funnily enough, no such thing as "integrated" in Oz when I did it (more than 20 years ago
). Whether you learnt full time or part time, it was the same licence issued by CASA. (As opposed to the former UK system before JAA). Besides, I didn't have the cash to pay for it so I had to earn and learn.
Life's a journey, not a destination. While the journey's been a challenge at times
overall, it was fun and I saw a lot and made some brilliant friends.Now for some vino, I love days off.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: End of 27L
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry, couldn't resist.
It was the same in the U.K. pre-JAA; the long course (509) which is essentially what we now call integrated training (when of course it's not really integrated in the way it was originally perceived under JAR-FCL 1) still resulted in the issue of a CPL (BCPL); the difference lay in the fact that you held a blue book with about 500hrs less than a graduate from a 'short' (modular) course (i.e. frozen). Materially, there is very little difference between the pre-JAA national licensing system & what we see today other than (importantly) the syllabus hours are less today than they were pre-JAR. This means either a) there used to be a lot of 'fat' in the old 509 course, b) student pilots are significantly sharper than they used to be, c) the standard of instruction given is significantly higher than it used to be, or d) the FTO's are making more profit with less flying during basic training (course prices have not decreased to reflect the reduction of hours). I'm not a cynic however so could not possibly answer that question myself! To be fair though, it's really no different in the airlines these days - ticks in boxes rather than old fashioned teaching & learning.
The real changes will be seen under EASA with the likes of proper MPL training etc. Now that is something I think the current economic downturn will have an effect on, possibly delaying the maturity of the implementation of MPL in the EU which is good news for low houred wannabes trying to find that first job over the next few years.
Anyway, complete thread drift...enjoy your vino.
It was the same in the U.K. pre-JAA; the long course (509) which is essentially what we now call integrated training (when of course it's not really integrated in the way it was originally perceived under JAR-FCL 1) still resulted in the issue of a CPL (BCPL); the difference lay in the fact that you held a blue book with about 500hrs less than a graduate from a 'short' (modular) course (i.e. frozen). Materially, there is very little difference between the pre-JAA national licensing system & what we see today other than (importantly) the syllabus hours are less today than they were pre-JAR. This means either a) there used to be a lot of 'fat' in the old 509 course, b) student pilots are significantly sharper than they used to be, c) the standard of instruction given is significantly higher than it used to be, or d) the FTO's are making more profit with less flying during basic training (course prices have not decreased to reflect the reduction of hours). I'm not a cynic however so could not possibly answer that question myself! To be fair though, it's really no different in the airlines these days - ticks in boxes rather than old fashioned teaching & learning.
The real changes will be seen under EASA with the likes of proper MPL training etc. Now that is something I think the current economic downturn will have an effect on, possibly delaying the maturity of the implementation of MPL in the EU which is good news for low houred wannabes trying to find that first job over the next few years.
Anyway, complete thread drift...enjoy your vino.
Last edited by Tootles the Taxi; 17th Sep 2008 at 19:27.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: FL410
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure that I would be taking the plunge at the moment.... I did so 2 years ago, finished this summer and am lucky enough to have gained one of the last places on a course with Ryanair. There is still a lot of risk in that I am by no means guaranteed a job at the end. But it would appear to be a better bet than signing on every week whilst worrying about skill fade and the approach of loan repayments (luckily I was able to fund much of the training myself, without the need to expose myself or my family's property to enormous risk).
However if I was in the same situation now, I think I would be inclined to wait just a little longer and see how things pan out. The situation right now is that, as someone else aluded to, low-hours pilots are competing with a very large number of very experienced and type-rated pilots. Very few companies are going to be looking for low-hours guys when they can take someone else with almost zero risk. Anyone graduating in the next 12 months from an FTO is going to find job hunting extremely frustrating.
I am also baffled as to why anyone else would be looking at doing an integrated (or any other kind for that matter) of ATPL right now.
It's all very well having dreams, but they don't pay the mortgage or keep the bank off your back. Be under no illusion - the banks' attitude is (to paraphrase Goodfellas) "can't repay the loan? **** you, pay me". Why any of them would be offering to fund an ATPL right now is a source of amazement to me.
However if I was in the same situation now, I think I would be inclined to wait just a little longer and see how things pan out. The situation right now is that, as someone else aluded to, low-hours pilots are competing with a very large number of very experienced and type-rated pilots. Very few companies are going to be looking for low-hours guys when they can take someone else with almost zero risk. Anyone graduating in the next 12 months from an FTO is going to find job hunting extremely frustrating.
I am also baffled as to why anyone else would be looking at doing an integrated (or any other kind for that matter) of ATPL right now.
It's all very well having dreams, but they don't pay the mortgage or keep the bank off your back. Be under no illusion - the banks' attitude is (to paraphrase Goodfellas) "can't repay the loan? **** you, pay me". Why any of them would be offering to fund an ATPL right now is a source of amazement to me.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Winchester
Age: 34
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i can confirm that as of tomorrow (29th September) HSBC have withdrawn all their professional studies loans with CTC, and that they will no longer provide funding to either wings cadets or wings iCP.
Game over.
Without the credit bubble these schemes which lent out £75k to a course of 12 (£900,000) every other week are dead in the water.
I'll just put some popcorn on as this is going to get interesting.
WWW
Without the credit bubble these schemes which lent out £75k to a course of 12 (£900,000) every other week are dead in the water.
I'll just put some popcorn on as this is going to get interesting.
WWW
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Caveat emptor
I feel sorry for the folks half way through their courses on borrowed money...those who don't have wealthy relatives under-writing them that is. As for the folks trying to borrow money NOW, do yourselves and the rest of us a favour...wait a while.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 776
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will be interesting to see what happens to the Integrated Schools marketing in the next few weeks, knowing that their supply of students will now be rapidly drying up with the lack of funding on offer.
I wonder if we will see if they now start touting Modular as the way to go "do a bit at at time, see how things pan out" "lower financial risk" etc etc coming out in their glossy brochures.
I'm so so glad I chose modular, so that I don't have a huge loan hanging over me with no job prospects. I have a loan, but it is easily managable and nowhere near the amount each month that those Integrated guys need to find.
I've almost finished my training (too far into it to quit now), but I'd echo what WWW and others have said, and if anyone is thinking of getting into training, hold off for 12-18 months to see how things pan out with the industry. If you really must start, then at least go modular and do a stage at a time and then see how things are panning out before moving on.
I wonder if we will see if they now start touting Modular as the way to go "do a bit at at time, see how things pan out" "lower financial risk" etc etc coming out in their glossy brochures.
I'm so so glad I chose modular, so that I don't have a huge loan hanging over me with no job prospects. I have a loan, but it is easily managable and nowhere near the amount each month that those Integrated guys need to find.
I've almost finished my training (too far into it to quit now), but I'd echo what WWW and others have said, and if anyone is thinking of getting into training, hold off for 12-18 months to see how things pan out with the industry. If you really must start, then at least go modular and do a stage at a time and then see how things are panning out before moving on.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was at the Dublin Flyer show, and most of the FTO were still pushing integrated. CTC don't do modular as they train 'Airline Pilots'. Not sure how any modular trained airline pilot would interpret that 
I think over time they will have to start looking at modular courses to supplement the in-evitable drop off in integrated students able to to fund the course. There are alot of fixed costs, and it looks to me that these FTOs need to have a high number of trainees flowing through to maintain profitibility. But willing to stand corrected, as I am not their accountant....
Banks wont lend to each other, so I am struggling to see how they can justify lending GBP60k for a training course, plus GBP10k for living expenses, plus potentially another GBP20k to pay for a type rating (so you can get a job, to start paying off the loan). You will need a lot of equity in your house, to get a loan of this sort (forget unsecured). The era of easy credit/hard credit/any credit is over. When the dust has settled, the politicians & regulators will come after the banks to make sure this doesnt happen again, and this will have a knock on effect.
I think over time they will have to start looking at modular courses to supplement the in-evitable drop off in integrated students able to to fund the course. There are alot of fixed costs, and it looks to me that these FTOs need to have a high number of trainees flowing through to maintain profitibility. But willing to stand corrected, as I am not their accountant....
Banks wont lend to each other, so I am struggling to see how they can justify lending GBP60k for a training course, plus GBP10k for living expenses, plus potentially another GBP20k to pay for a type rating (so you can get a job, to start paying off the loan). You will need a lot of equity in your house, to get a loan of this sort (forget unsecured). The era of easy credit/hard credit/any credit is over. When the dust has settled, the politicians & regulators will come after the banks to make sure this doesnt happen again, and this will have a knock on effect.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Planet no. 3
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HSBC loan
For the record, and I will probably get lynched in public for this, but I managed to get an unsecured £25k loan from HSBC to start in Oxford in a few months' time. That was approved 2 weeks ago. No real questions asked, in fact a very easy interview (a university degree and real work experience helps, I guess).
Yes, I know the state of the industry and have done my homework, and in fact I agree with the general consensus about integrated training at this moment, but let's just say that I have a pretty good backup plan, that the £25k will be my only debt, and that I have pretty good contacts for a future job (not in Europe or USA).
Yes, I know the state of the industry and have done my homework, and in fact I agree with the general consensus about integrated training at this moment, but let's just say that I have a pretty good backup plan, that the £25k will be my only debt, and that I have pretty good contacts for a future job (not in Europe or USA).
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It wasn't that long ago that a 25K loan would horrify people 
Fwiw, just because you have a course booked at Oxford in a few months, doesn't mean you have to go through with it. If you have a degree and a back up plan, why not put that in place now ? Presumably the back up plan involves getting a paid job and that if you were planning to start a full time course then you don't have any other financial commitments (ie mortgages etc). Assuming that's correct, why not do a part time PPL and self study the ATPLs until things settle down ? If you can't cancel the loan then you can always put it into a high interest account.
I have a feeling that there are going to be more hour building options available in the not to distant future in the form of purchasing shares in an aircraft and getting a cheap hourly rate. I've looked into it again recently and it seems a much more attractive option than it did several years ago although i'd suggest that anyone interested do their own homework on that first.
Fwiw, just because you have a course booked at Oxford in a few months, doesn't mean you have to go through with it. If you have a degree and a back up plan, why not put that in place now ? Presumably the back up plan involves getting a paid job and that if you were planning to start a full time course then you don't have any other financial commitments (ie mortgages etc). Assuming that's correct, why not do a part time PPL and self study the ATPLs until things settle down ? If you can't cancel the loan then you can always put it into a high interest account.
I have a feeling that there are going to be more hour building options available in the not to distant future in the form of purchasing shares in an aircraft and getting a cheap hourly rate. I've looked into it again recently and it seems a much more attractive option than it did several years ago although i'd suggest that anyone interested do their own homework on that first.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Glorious nation of Kazakhstan.....great success!!!
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I posted this on a another forum.. I used it and it worked.
Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:
1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...
2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR
3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.
4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly you will become un-current very quickly and secondly you learnt how to fly so FLY.
5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook
6)Listen to WWW and Redsnail for they are wise!!!
Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money to pay for the flying. Also the military is not training that many either.
2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.
3) See this credit crunch, and my advice as your saviour in a couple of years time. It will make it easier
That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described so I KNOW it works....
Thank you and good night!!
Folks, I am going to share some pearls of wisdom. Below are some points as to a proven method (not just in the UK but the world over) on how to get your licence get a job and not get into MOUNTAINS of debt...take heed:
1) Treat getting a flying job and your license like a business!!!!! Keep your start up costs low (go modular and pay as you go), and your future running costs will be low. Do you have ANY idea how much borrowing £60K plus a good £25k for a type rating is going to cost on monthly payments....THINK ABOUT IT!!!! A wonderful airline salary ain't all that good, when you have to first give the bank most of it every month...
2)Get a normal job first (it might even turn it into a second career)....use it to pay cash for as much of your flying as possible..It is a great back up plan (again if you refer to point 1. every business should have a back up plan). Having a normal job will also aid you in obtaining the small amount of credit you are going to need to pay for the IR
3) Once finished with your training do an FI course!!!!! You have learnt how to fly, NOW FLY. It builds your hours (this is a good thing) but more importantly it helps you make contacts. Remember Point 1.
4)DO NOT take a job as an airline hostie with hopes of making contacts. When the market is dead, it's dead AND you are making lousy money. Also remember, firstly you will become un-current very quickly and secondly you learnt how to fly so FLY.
5)If you are a wayne kerr/dullard/plonker/all round knob, please work on your personality issues or will not get a job. You can tell if you are one of the afore mentioned, if you only 4 friends on Facebook
6)Listen to WWW and Redsnail for they are wise!!!
Right, now for some merlot moments:
1)In a bunch of years time there is going to there is going to be a severe shortage of pilots because the banks have not been loaning as much money to pay for the flying. Also the military is not training that many either.
2)As there are fewer and fewer people becoming FI's, you will be in the top position come interview time because you have the hours. All your mates who did integrated courses haven't seen the inside of an aeroplane for years, are poor, and are moaning on this website.
3) See this credit crunch, and my advice as your saviour in a couple of years time. It will make it easier
That's it for now folks. I did it as per the above advice (given to me by a good friend) and I got the elusive first airline job. I know +12 friends/people who also did it as described so I KNOW it works....
Thank you and good night!!
Last edited by bluelearjetdriver; 29th Sep 2008 at 09:20. Reason: jus added a few important points
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Land of the leprechaun
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
may i ask how you found this out?????
it just the person in charge of giving out the loans at Milton Kenyes is away on holiday... I know for a fact cause i'll to have a meeting with her tomarow,,,,,
just curious ????
it just the person in charge of giving out the loans at Milton Kenyes is away on holiday... I know for a fact cause i'll to have a meeting with her tomarow,,,,,
just curious ????