Diamond Twin-star
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In the King Air(one of the new glass cockpit versions), El Capitan would have his screens on FMS mode, I would have mine on conventional VOR. Gave us good situational awareness. Having done my IR on a steam driven seneca, i actually found it quite difficult to get used to the FMS display.
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ali
All other things being roughly equal, yes. I am sure the schools are well aware of it. However they used to get the lower costs and they probably get higher pass rates.
It might be perfectly acceptable preparation for some types of flying, although I do know that even in one airline flying with glass cockpits they had awful trouble with new FOs trained in Twinstars (one of their training captains was a friend of mine). On the other hand I can't think of a job for which training in an aircraft with clockwork cockpit and six levers would be poor preparation.
As I said, if you can do it the hard way then you can do it the easy way.
All other things being roughly equal, yes. I am sure the schools are well aware of it. However they used to get the lower costs and they probably get higher pass rates.
It might be perfectly acceptable preparation for some types of flying, although I do know that even in one airline flying with glass cockpits they had awful trouble with new FOs trained in Twinstars (one of their training captains was a friend of mine). On the other hand I can't think of a job for which training in an aircraft with clockwork cockpit and six levers would be poor preparation.
As I said, if you can do it the hard way then you can do it the easy way.
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Ok this is a rough outline of what i can see people are saying
Twin star
Pros: Higher pass rates, reduces pilot workload and makes the IR simpler and introduces the pilot to the glass cockpit
Cons: Doesn't prepare you If things go wrong, more expensive, takes time to get used to the screens.
Analogue
Pros: Prepares you for if/when the FMC fails, Airlines like it better, Cheaper
Cons: More Pilot workload, the transition to glass on the flightdeck is more difficult
Twin star
Pros: Higher pass rates, reduces pilot workload and makes the IR simpler and introduces the pilot to the glass cockpit
Cons: Doesn't prepare you If things go wrong, more expensive, takes time to get used to the screens.
Analogue
Pros: Prepares you for if/when the FMC fails, Airlines like it better, Cheaper
Cons: More Pilot workload, the transition to glass on the flightdeck is more difficult
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Analogue
Cons: ... the transition to glass on the flightdeck is more difficult
Cons: ... the transition to glass on the flightdeck is more difficult
As for pilot workload being high, that is the main advantage to the potential employer. We know the pilot can cope with that workload, which will be experienced at some point.
Last edited by Lost man standing; 24th Jul 2008 at 20:39.
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I asked about this at stapleford...
The IR training is still done with the aircraft in effective 'steam' mode... i.e. no moving map etc so the only difference is a more compact scan and simpler engine drills.
what's the problem with that?
The IR training is still done with the aircraft in effective 'steam' mode... i.e. no moving map etc so the only difference is a more compact scan and simpler engine drills.
what's the problem with that?
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Nothing specifically wrong with it. It is not an vital consideration (one of the best pilots I have recruited trained on the DA42 at Stapleford). The pilot's attitude to work is far more important, for example. Experience is the most important factor in recruitment.
However the presentation of information in the DA42 is different, and of course better. Thus when they get into my clockwork cockpit the person who trained in a clockwork cockpit, the hard way, is at a small advantage. Many pilots will also fly piston or turbo-prop aircraft and will have to cope with more levers than the DA42 has.
Remember, moving to a simpler aircraft is not a problem. Moving to a more complicated aircraft might be!
However the presentation of information in the DA42 is different, and of course better. Thus when they get into my clockwork cockpit the person who trained in a clockwork cockpit, the hard way, is at a small advantage. Many pilots will also fly piston or turbo-prop aircraft and will have to cope with more levers than the DA42 has.
Remember, moving to a simpler aircraft is not a problem. Moving to a more complicated aircraft might be!
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An interesting debate this one!
One other important difference i found is the Glance factor - it does take time to not be able to glance for instance at the Airspeed to see green, white arcs , and vsi etc..
Operation of the unit can easily be learnt on the grounds with mock ups.
Another difference with the DA42 is stability - it does float around more than a seneca which tends to sit more like a lump where you put it.
One other important difference i found is the Glance factor - it does take time to not be able to glance for instance at the Airspeed to see green, white arcs , and vsi etc..
Operation of the unit can easily be learnt on the grounds with mock ups.
Another difference with the DA42 is stability - it does float around more than a seneca which tends to sit more like a lump where you put it.
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As someone said an interesting debate, on one side the rose tinted glasses of the would be airline pilots wanting to fly the latest hi-tech kit and on the other side the people with thousands of airline hours issueing words of caution that are being dispelled by those with not enough hours to know much about the subect past buying the dream from a glossy sales leflet.
No way will the glsss cockpit in the Twin-star help you get a grip on a modern FMC, Ironicly the King KLN90 & KLN98B have some of the operating logic of the Boeing FMC but these are not sexy enough for the Twin-star. So the twin-star fails to win on both counts
Wodka I refer you to the statment by Christine Keeler in the Perfumo trial.
No way will the glsss cockpit in the Twin-star help you get a grip on a modern FMC, Ironicly the King KLN90 & KLN98B have some of the operating logic of the Boeing FMC but these are not sexy enough for the Twin-star. So the twin-star fails to win on both counts
Wodka I refer you to the statment by Christine Keeler in the Perfumo trial.
Last edited by A and C; 25th Jul 2008 at 12:09.
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An interesting debate.
I did my IR on a steam driven Cougar. When I was doing my check ride for my current job in a steam driven Jetstream I had the necessary scan in place.
The G1000 is not like an EFIS flight deck, tho certainly much more so than an old seneca. Therefore it will stand you in better stead for an EFIS job.
People will always want it done the hard way because they did it that way. Diamond are to be applauded for moving GA forward, it is just a shame the engine situation has developed.
Incidentally does anyone know where the G1000 simulator can be found. The GNS430 sim was on the web site but I can't find the G1000 one.
I did my IR on a steam driven Cougar. When I was doing my check ride for my current job in a steam driven Jetstream I had the necessary scan in place.
The G1000 is not like an EFIS flight deck, tho certainly much more so than an old seneca. Therefore it will stand you in better stead for an EFIS job.
People will always want it done the hard way because they did it that way. Diamond are to be applauded for moving GA forward, it is just a shame the engine situation has developed.
Incidentally does anyone know where the G1000 simulator can be found. The GNS430 sim was on the web site but I can't find the G1000 one.
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I'm sure I'm missing something here.
I did the CPL and IR in the DA42, and what are the extra functions that are of use to us that are not available in a Seneca?
The moving map was, of course, removed. I had the glass horizon and HSI setup with the ability to choose what the bearing needles pointed at. That is all.
What extra 'FMS' style navigation was I using? There was no 'following' the magenta line, nor programming in of any SIDs/STARs for me to follow. I had to use conventional VOR/NDB tracking just like those on older aircraft.
I believe the F/O declaring the PAN tends to demonstrate a lacking in his TRTO for not giving him sufficient practice in flying using back up navigation or the equivalent.
Disappointing to hear about the interviewer favouring candidates who passed on steam driven aircraft. I guess I figured that level of short-sightedness deserves retirement as much as his beloved antique Senecas do.
I did the CPL and IR in the DA42, and what are the extra functions that are of use to us that are not available in a Seneca?
The moving map was, of course, removed. I had the glass horizon and HSI setup with the ability to choose what the bearing needles pointed at. That is all.
What extra 'FMS' style navigation was I using? There was no 'following' the magenta line, nor programming in of any SIDs/STARs for me to follow. I had to use conventional VOR/NDB tracking just like those on older aircraft.
I believe the F/O declaring the PAN tends to demonstrate a lacking in his TRTO for not giving him sufficient practice in flying using back up navigation or the equivalent.
Disappointing to hear about the interviewer favouring candidates who passed on steam driven aircraft. I guess I figured that level of short-sightedness deserves retirement as much as his beloved antique Senecas do.
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During the IR course in a EFIS equipped aircraft you can ONLY use raw data and same goes for the skill test.
Very simple;
Why pay more to fly something old and tatty when you could fly something that was built this decade worth nearly half a million euros for less.
And I don’t quite agree when people say that its harder to fly something like a BE 76 than a DA42, it depends on the candidate. Ok with something like a BE 76 you have a few extra levers (mixture, props) , but you have a lot more complex systems in a Twinstar.
Very simple;
Why pay more to fly something old and tatty when you could fly something that was built this decade worth nearly half a million euros for less.
And I don’t quite agree when people say that its harder to fly something like a BE 76 than a DA42, it depends on the candidate. Ok with something like a BE 76 you have a few extra levers (mixture, props) , but you have a lot more complex systems in a Twinstar.
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Mierda
Wile I respect your opinion I just have to ask how much time do you have in the logbook and just what type ratings do you have (or had) to back up you opinion?
Lost man standing would seem to have a lot of airline flying behind him and the hours to back up his point of view.
Lost man standing would seem to have a lot of airline flying behind him and the hours to back up his point of view.
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Hi A and C
Like you said its an opinion, however for the IR course and test its a fact.The examiner will not allow you to use the moving map and load up approaches on your MFD.
Just to defend my opinion... I teach candidates on both types of machine.
They all have the good and the bad, but the bottom line is that its cheaper for the student to use a machine that consumes 40 ltrs of jet fuel (tax free) per hour than one that consumes 80 ltrs of Avgas an hour ( not tax free)
The real problem with the Diamonds at the moment is the Thielert engine situation.
The ability of a pilot depends on a lot more different factors than just what aeroplane he/she used for the CPL/IR course.
Anyway only my opinion-I hope it helps you guys decide what aircraft to use...
Like you said its an opinion, however for the IR course and test its a fact.The examiner will not allow you to use the moving map and load up approaches on your MFD.
Just to defend my opinion... I teach candidates on both types of machine.
They all have the good and the bad, but the bottom line is that its cheaper for the student to use a machine that consumes 40 ltrs of jet fuel (tax free) per hour than one that consumes 80 ltrs of Avgas an hour ( not tax free)
The real problem with the Diamonds at the moment is the Thielert engine situation.
The ability of a pilot depends on a lot more different factors than just what aeroplane he/she used for the CPL/IR course.
Anyway only my opinion-I hope it helps you guys decide what aircraft to use...
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There is, it will get resolved in the not too distant future, and Diamond are hoping to get their own engine certified by the end of October.
If you are going to do your course in A diamond, find out from your FTO how they are dealing with the situation, and what plans they have in place when Aircraft goes Tech, when they need parts etc etc.
If you are going to do your course in A diamond, find out from your FTO how they are dealing with the situation, and what plans they have in place when Aircraft goes Tech, when they need parts etc etc.
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oh well thats good news i thought things were looking rather bleak for it.
Just out of interest where abouts did you hear about that i ve found no news anywhere on it?
Just out of interest where abouts did you hear about that i ve found no news anywhere on it?
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Mierdia
Thanks for the reply it was very illuminating, I am very pleased to see that the students for the IR can't use the aircraft for the IR test in the "full glass" mode.
However those who are choosing the aircraft because they think it will help them move to an airliner glass cockpit are also under a sad misapprehension as clearly they cant use any of the advanced features of the aircraft on the IR training.
I looks to me as if the PA34 is the route to go down, spend the same money as with the Diamond star, do an extra hour of flying and be in position that you can fly an aircraft with blue levers rather than letting the computer do it all for you!
In these lean times it may well come in useful.
However those who are choosing the aircraft because they think it will help them move to an airliner glass cockpit are also under a sad misapprehension as clearly they cant use any of the advanced features of the aircraft on the IR training.
I looks to me as if the PA34 is the route to go down, spend the same money as with the Diamond star, do an extra hour of flying and be in position that you can fly an aircraft with blue levers rather than letting the computer do it all for you!
In these lean times it may well come in useful.