Are more or less people training to fly now?
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I've just graduated with £12k debt - I really don't know how I'm going to afford the £22/month repayment minimum. Oh no 
Sadly grad schemes are going the way of the dodo due to this credit nonsense
The real return on investment on a degree is absolutely pitiful. Its also stressful and boring. No wonder the Labour party are so enthusiastic about them.
Some decent A-Levels to prove you are not thick is about as far as I would take formal education unless you want to enter one of the proper professions (medicine, law, accountancy).
In my opinion professional aviators belong to a proper profession.
Heli_port - lovely, you made a packet from you degree, you studied something lucrative, Well Done.
Most Uni grads don't. They piss 3 years against the wall gaining a two one in an Ology from a red brick or worse. Whoopy doo.
If they wanted to be pilots then they could have cut that time and money out.
Don't think I'm some sort of moron who hates Uni as I was sponsored by the Military to attend a Red Brick on a course I though would be fun (it was) at which I excelled. Mortar Board aside it was all as waste of time and money.
If you want to fly then just learn to fly, etc.
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Most Uni grads don't. They piss 3 years against the wall gaining a two one in an Ology from a red brick or worse. Whoopy doo.
If they wanted to be pilots then they could have cut that time and money out.
Don't think I'm some sort of moron who hates Uni as I was sponsored by the Military to attend a Red Brick on a course I though would be fun (it was) at which I excelled. Mortar Board aside it was all as waste of time and money.
If you want to fly then just learn to fly, etc.
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I'm a cynic and I like your glib tone. Tell me, what do you think will end up as having caused the greater damage to the jobs market in the west:
a. The west/east shift to which you allude, coupled with the cliched global credit thingy and high oil price (due in part, no doubt to the west/east stuff and the east's demand for oil)
or
b. The September 11 terrorist attacks.
Consequently, in order to stick loosely to the original poster's question, what will end up as having had the greatest effect on the number of trainees?
I'm a cynic and I like your glib tone. Tell me, what do you think will end up as having caused the greater damage to the jobs market in the west:
a. The west/east shift to which you allude, coupled with the cliched global credit thingy and high oil price (due in part, no doubt to the west/east stuff and the east's demand for oil)
or
b. The September 11 terrorist attacks.
Consequently, in order to stick loosely to the original poster's question, what will end up as having had the greatest effect on the number of trainees?
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and then.....
"Which is perfectly analgeous for the shift in economic power from West to East. You only speak English, your license is JAA. You have no hope of benefiting from the Eastern expansion and will bear the full brunt of Western contraction."
The international language of the air is English isn't it, so why not benefit? Also, can the eastern training organisations keep pace??
The international language of the air is English isn't it, so why not benefit? Also, can the eastern training organisations keep pace??
Sept11th was a tiny blip. The coming collapse of Western economies is a Tsunami.
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The international language might be English but every airline in the world can specify something else.
Pilot shortages may happen. But not never for <500hr wannabes. You are two a penny.
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Pilot shortages may happen. But not never for <500hr wannabes. You are two a penny.
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My views on going to uni can be found without difficulty on these forums and differ somewhat significantly from yours. Not wishing to start a bashing of skulls that will get us nowhere, I would say that going to uni isn't just about the degree, it gives you a chance to get out and experience a life outside living at home with mum and dad and being spoon fed things at school. Would you agree with me that EITHER a) going to uni and spending the time constructively (which I class as getting into the military units or similar social activities which encourage teamwork, leadership and a general air of maturity) or b) working for several years after school in order to get the same sort of life experience is pretty important in order to become the rounded character you need to succeed in aviation?
I suspect that your views on newbie pilots training straight from school and mum and dad's house are similar to mine. Just one of your earlier posts seems to suggest that if you want to be a pilot dive in after A levels, which I feel is wrong and puts you at a serious disadvantage when it come to finding a job. As you said, rather bluntly, us <500 hour guys are two a penny, therefore you have to be head and shoulders above the rest in order to succeed. Without getting out in the world, I would be amazed to hear that you would be the stuff of recruiters dreams and I am sure you would agree it is dangerous to allow anyone to believe other than that what is contained in the CV is what will get you the interview spot - we all have the aeroplane ratings to get one!
Just for the record, I went to a red brick and got a 2:1 in an 'ology', and I would not for one minute consider not going again. The opportunities you are presented with at uni are never there again, sure a lot of people waste them (p*ssing them up the wall or watching them, stoned, as they float by) but because I wasn't one of them and I got out and experienced things, the life experience I gained was A1, sure I came out with 12 grand debt, for which I shall be paying something like £25 a month off once I cross the earnings threshold. Not a small amount of total expenditure, but for the experience, I would pay it again tomorrow, and I am sure many, many who read these forums would do the same!
My views on going to uni can be found without difficulty on these forums and differ somewhat significantly from yours. Not wishing to start a bashing of skulls that will get us nowhere, I would say that going to uni isn't just about the degree, it gives you a chance to get out and experience a life outside living at home with mum and dad and being spoon fed things at school. Would you agree with me that EITHER a) going to uni and spending the time constructively (which I class as getting into the military units or similar social activities which encourage teamwork, leadership and a general air of maturity) or b) working for several years after school in order to get the same sort of life experience is pretty important in order to become the rounded character you need to succeed in aviation?
I suspect that your views on newbie pilots training straight from school and mum and dad's house are similar to mine. Just one of your earlier posts seems to suggest that if you want to be a pilot dive in after A levels, which I feel is wrong and puts you at a serious disadvantage when it come to finding a job. As you said, rather bluntly, us <500 hour guys are two a penny, therefore you have to be head and shoulders above the rest in order to succeed. Without getting out in the world, I would be amazed to hear that you would be the stuff of recruiters dreams and I am sure you would agree it is dangerous to allow anyone to believe other than that what is contained in the CV is what will get you the interview spot - we all have the aeroplane ratings to get one!
Just for the record, I went to a red brick and got a 2:1 in an 'ology', and I would not for one minute consider not going again. The opportunities you are presented with at uni are never there again, sure a lot of people waste them (p*ssing them up the wall or watching them, stoned, as they float by) but because I wasn't one of them and I got out and experienced things, the life experience I gained was A1, sure I came out with 12 grand debt, for which I shall be paying something like £25 a month off once I cross the earnings threshold. Not a small amount of total expenditure, but for the experience, I would pay it again tomorrow, and I am sure many, many who read these forums would do the same!
Last edited by cfwake; 1st Jul 2008 at 19:10.
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cfwake great post - 100% agree with all your comments (i managed to get a jeff hurst 
)
Uni will make you a man! (a drunk nymphomaniac that eats pot noodles) but a man none the less!
i fear we have strayed from the original topic
)Uni will make you a man! (a drunk nymphomaniac that eats pot noodles) but a man none the less!
i fear we have strayed from the original topic
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There will be less people in training by the end of this year than last year, no doubt about that. From recent visits to serveral large FTO's (modular) it appears that the credit crunch/recession is yet to cut in. However the evidence of increased training costs is already upon us. I have seen a 15k CPL IR turn into a 30K CPL IR at near minimum hours. This will mean that less people will be able to afford flight training very shortly. If your in this for the long haul (40 year career) like me then its a good thing not a bad thing. Too many people have taken a two a penny fancy to flight training whilst the credit was cheap, these are the same idiots who pay for type ratings and line training. Thankfully there credit score has now run out and the real aviators can get back to business!
I'm looking forward to paying for my training upfront and graduating just as the market rebounds at a time when very few people are fresh from flight training!
I'm looking forward to paying for my training upfront and graduating just as the market rebounds at a time when very few people are fresh from flight training!
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Yes there is a good social scene on an ab initio course but it is very, very hard work and you need to be able to knuckle down and push through the work. Also, to emphasise my main argument - if you wrote a CV now, do you think it would stand comparison with the other people who will be competing with you for a job? If it reads: left school having lived at home, went to learn how to fly, then I would suggest that if the job climate is as gloomy as WWW would have us believe, then you'll have a tough time of things...
The opportunities and experiences (and friends) you'll get at uni will never, ever come around again and if you get out there and apply yourself to extra curricular stuff, you'll be out the other side in no time wondering how the hell you've been there three years, I left 2 years ago and it still feels like 5 minutes since I started!
You're a young guy, the aviation industry is in a poor state at the moment, why push on with training? In 3 or 4 years, it WILL have recovered, to whatever shape it must to survive, and you will (assuming you don't just sit around getting drunk and missing lectures) have plenty more to put on your CV. The worst thing I can imagine for an interviewer when asking for teamwork or leadership examples is repeatedly hearing 'Well, when I was at Oxford...' because it's all you have!
The opportunities and experiences (and friends) you'll get at uni will never, ever come around again and if you get out there and apply yourself to extra curricular stuff, you'll be out the other side in no time wondering how the hell you've been there three years, I left 2 years ago and it still feels like 5 minutes since I started!
You're a young guy, the aviation industry is in a poor state at the moment, why push on with training? In 3 or 4 years, it WILL have recovered, to whatever shape it must to survive, and you will (assuming you don't just sit around getting drunk and missing lectures) have plenty more to put on your CV. The worst thing I can imagine for an interviewer when asking for teamwork or leadership examples is repeatedly hearing 'Well, when I was at Oxford...' because it's all you have!
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I'm not sure I would agree that September 11th was a tiny blip. As a then wannabe I would say that, taking those I knew who were training at the same time, and the length of time post Sept 11th it took for everyone to find jobs (I'll admit to being almost the slowest - deliberately - there is one left to go) that things have only returned to normal for sub 500 hours pilots within the last 12 or 18 months. Now it's on the way back down again. Great.
Interestingly, due to a general lack of money which is causing the downturn, I suppose there will be fewer new students with the means to start training, although I don't suppose this will ever balance the fall in the number of new jobs.
Interestingly, due to a general lack of money which is causing the downturn, I suppose there will be fewer new students with the means to start training, although I don't suppose this will ever balance the fall in the number of new jobs.
I went to Uni in 1993 - 1996 as:
a) The RAF were closing down RAF(G) and didn't need any new pilots, and
b) The UK was in the depths of the early 1990s recession, Air UK, DanAir, Laker, and Caledonian had all gone recently bust/bought for a £1 and the chances of entering commercial aviation were somewhat shorter than nil.
By 1997 things were picking up, PPRuNe had been invented, sponsorships were starting to appear en-masse. By 1999 I had jacked in the graduate job and become a full time flying instructor. Those years at University were an excellent holding pattern whilst the economy and the airline sector nosedived and recovered. I still see Uni as having that function today.
I was lucky that I had a lucrative summer job, I was in the UAS flying a Bulldog and Uni was free back then under a Conservative government.
The years 18 - 21 will be special and amazing whether you go to Uni, travel the world, start a shoe shine business or work on a building site. The small amount of study, high expense and length of time required for an average degree are all good reasons not to bother. You CV will stand out and look far more interesting if you spent 3 years sailing boats as part of a qualified crew than it would if you got a 2:1 from Hull in Geography.
You'd be less in debt and would have experienced a fair bit more of life than you would have done living in a student doss house getting up for the afternoon Neighbours episode. You'd also have a sun tan, a bit of cash in the bank and some amazing pictures that don't involve a mortar board or a traffic cone on your head.
Sept11th resulted in an 18 month 10% decline in traffic numbers and two EU airlines went bust (Swiss and Sabena). The coming oil price spike, recession and war will result in a far worse and far longer decline in traffic numbers and far more airline failures.
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a) The RAF were closing down RAF(G) and didn't need any new pilots, and
b) The UK was in the depths of the early 1990s recession, Air UK, DanAir, Laker, and Caledonian had all gone recently bust/bought for a £1 and the chances of entering commercial aviation were somewhat shorter than nil.
By 1997 things were picking up, PPRuNe had been invented, sponsorships were starting to appear en-masse. By 1999 I had jacked in the graduate job and become a full time flying instructor. Those years at University were an excellent holding pattern whilst the economy and the airline sector nosedived and recovered. I still see Uni as having that function today.
I was lucky that I had a lucrative summer job, I was in the UAS flying a Bulldog and Uni was free back then under a Conservative government.
The years 18 - 21 will be special and amazing whether you go to Uni, travel the world, start a shoe shine business or work on a building site. The small amount of study, high expense and length of time required for an average degree are all good reasons not to bother. You CV will stand out and look far more interesting if you spent 3 years sailing boats as part of a qualified crew than it would if you got a 2:1 from Hull in Geography.
You'd be less in debt and would have experienced a fair bit more of life than you would have done living in a student doss house getting up for the afternoon Neighbours episode. You'd also have a sun tan, a bit of cash in the bank and some amazing pictures that don't involve a mortar board or a traffic cone on your head.
Sept11th resulted in an 18 month 10% decline in traffic numbers and two EU airlines went bust (Swiss and Sabena). The coming oil price spike, recession and war will result in a far worse and far longer decline in traffic numbers and far more airline failures.
WWW
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Just for my part, I went to uni, got a 2:1, played rugby for said uni AND spent (2) years getting paid to sail boats around as part of a qualified (Royal Navy) crew! I would say, just don't waste your time, it's all there for you, it's up to you to squander the chances!
Also just to add, as a member of the URNU, I earned money (easily covered all my costs for socialising with the URNU from the pay I got from them), went on summer deployment to northern France for 2 weeks each year (4 in the first year to be honest) for a sun tan, being paid 33 quid for every day of sailing around with your mates, and never, ever dossed around in a house watching Neighbours...plenty of photos other than mortar boards and traffic cones (although I got ones of those as well!)
Sorry WWW, just can't help yanking your crank! Especially when the aviation outlook is pretty much equally as bleak as you were experiencing when you went!
Also just to add, as a member of the URNU, I earned money (easily covered all my costs for socialising with the URNU from the pay I got from them), went on summer deployment to northern France for 2 weeks each year (4 in the first year to be honest) for a sun tan, being paid 33 quid for every day of sailing around with your mates, and never, ever dossed around in a house watching Neighbours...plenty of photos other than mortar boards and traffic cones (although I got ones of those as well!)
Sorry WWW, just can't help yanking your crank! Especially when the aviation outlook is pretty much equally as bleak as you were experiencing when you went!
Last edited by cfwake; 2nd Jul 2008 at 17:46.
Hey - I was flying a Bulldog in the UAS during the week and instructing on the Vigilant in the VGS at weekends and packed plenty into my three happy years at Uni.
But this is not always the case and the cost/benefit of a basic three year degree these days doesn't really stake up if your intention is to self sponsor a CPL IR/Frzn ATPL. It stopped impressing anybody or opening any doors years ago.
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But this is not always the case and the cost/benefit of a basic three year degree these days doesn't really stake up if your intention is to self sponsor a CPL IR/Frzn ATPL. It stopped impressing anybody or opening any doors years ago.
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Hmm, not entirely convinced that it is of no use, especially after having spoken to recruiters from many fields of work, but I doubt we're going to get very far arguing the toss any more...I hope that we can agree that starting flying training when you've done nothing of note in your life is a pretty bad idea, though?