The Truth About Spanish IRs
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hoylake
Age: 50
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Name and shame the school(s) then, instead of all this ive heard, my mate says etc, it will make for a more constructive thread than eveyone linked to Spain is in someway sub standard.
I did my IR at Aerodynamics and got out what I put in, I have no concerns with my IR ability, and as I said in a previous post nor do the guys I know who are flying airbus, boeing or air taxi.
There is normaly no smoke without fire, so maybe these practices are happening who knows, but it certainly didnt happen at AD.
As for the logging flights that did not take place, would you be happy paying for a flight and not actually doing it, I cant imagine any of the career minded flight students I know of doing that.
I did my IR at Aerodynamics and got out what I put in, I have no concerns with my IR ability, and as I said in a previous post nor do the guys I know who are flying airbus, boeing or air taxi.
There is normaly no smoke without fire, so maybe these practices are happening who knows, but it certainly didnt happen at AD.
As for the logging flights that did not take place, would you be happy paying for a flight and not actually doing it, I cant imagine any of the career minded flight students I know of doing that.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I'll tell you it wasn't Aerofan.
To add something as a rumour to the thread (The rest as stated I know to be true) look what's been written on another thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/profess...-aviation.html) where there is further discussion about the Spanish IR.
To add something as a rumour to the thread (The rest as stated I know to be true) look what's been written on another thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/profess...-aviation.html) where there is further discussion about the Spanish IR.
A little bird tells me that the CAA are considering endorsing the UK issued CPL with the state of initial IRT on it as industry is concerned that the Spanish are taking the Michael on this.
Last edited by ConcernedIR; 16th Jul 2008 at 15:35.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Saraksh
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ConcernedIR
may I ask you, why and with which reason are you started all this?
Do you have a problem with people from poor families, who can not finance IR in UK or other West European schools?
You know well, that only financial reason pushes lots of us to go to Spain and not a wish to get something easier or without skill test (still don't believe you that it possible)...
may I ask you, why and with which reason are you started all this?
Do you have a problem with people from poor families, who can not finance IR in UK or other West European schools?
You know well, that only financial reason pushes lots of us to go to Spain and not a wish to get something easier or without skill test (still don't believe you that it possible)...
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: manchester UK
Age: 52
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies and gentlemen, i am writing this with no malice or indeed any hatred for spanish schools. How is this so?, because i have been training in spain up until recently, if you look at my past threads, i have actually defended training in spain. i have completed my atpls in a spanish school and am now ready to complete, the cpl/ir/me. i am booked on a course at a spanish school ready to start next week. i for one am now going to cancel for the following reasons. Upon me ringing to confirm the start date, for my cpl, i was told not to worry, everything is in place and i am booked on. then was advised that there will be no skills test as the spanish issue a cpl licence on the basis of you just actually completing the course!. now im not going to get into details of schools ect, but i will be investigating further as to find if this is the case or not. I am a uk citizen, who went to spain beacuse of weather , price ect. the schools are generally good, but i have experienced countless problems over the last two years. I have decided to stay in the uk, save up and complete here, even for just my own piece of mind in considering whether airlines will in future have a problem with the way licences/ratings are gained in spain. i have luckily already had permission to complete the cpl in the uk after getting authorisation from the spanish for the uk to be the state of licence issue.
I have learnt the Hard way , if something seems to good to be true, it usually is. The cpl at this particular school is around £2500 cheaper than if you did it in the UK!
I have learnt the Hard way , if something seems to good to be true, it usually is. The cpl at this particular school is around £2500 cheaper than if you did it in the UK!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Age: 40
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I couldn't care less how much money you have acuba - that is definitely not the topic of conversation or what I want to discuss and please don't continue the thread on the topic of money.
What I'm concerned about is the lack of standards and the issues I've all ready stated.
What I'm concerned about is the lack of standards and the issues I've all ready stated.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brentford
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
employers base their decision on aptitude tests, sim assessments and technical interviews as the selection process is meant to be objective and non-discriminatory.
so please don’t use these scare tactics.
if the UK schools were reasonably priced, there wouldn't be a need for this thread.
cabair and oat ok, but please don’t bring in bonus aviation and other jokers to set our standards
so please don’t use these scare tactics.
if the UK schools were reasonably priced, there wouldn't be a need for this thread.
cabair and oat ok, but please don’t bring in bonus aviation and other jokers to set our standards
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ireland
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes reading this forum makes we wish id never signed up for it because some of the things discussed on this forum is stupid because it is impossible for everybody that goes to a flight school to have a good time/experience or whatever the case may be. But then to be bringing down the integrity of a country a flight school is not enough for some people anymore..is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.I find it very hard to believe that a school would fiddle with log books and risk dragging their school through the mud for a couple of flights and for everybody that went through its doors dont ya think that id would of been noticed before this, I just think that it is unfair to be speaking so negatively and putting off ''wannabees'' because of a personal grudge or a disliking for a particular place. I hate readind a thread and seeing ''xxxx flight school is rubbish or country xxxx is crappy dont go there'' why would you bother doing it??
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would be great if internationally we could organise civil aviation ratings so that all this was uneccessary
A lot of this I feel is the good old tried and tested "vested interest dressed up as safety" argument.
All those FAA IRs flying in and out of Heathrow everyday and now the Spanish as well and this is Britain (shock horror) and we are the best duh!
A lot of this I feel is the good old tried and tested "vested interest dressed up as safety" argument.
All those FAA IRs flying in and out of Heathrow everyday and now the Spanish as well and this is Britain (shock horror) and we are the best duh!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
was advised that there will be no skills test as the spanish issue a cpl licence on the basis of you just actually completing the course
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newcastle
Age: 39
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honestly, the BS on here just gets more incredible as the days go by!
I wish I had one of these mystical examiners who "don't turn up" or turn up, but don't actually do the exam - would have saved me a lot of stress, and more leisure time (I only managed one night out in the entire 5 weeks).
And these people who claim they didn't fly, but logged the hours, and were "given" a pass - it's complete and utter BS.
I wish I had one of these mystical examiners who "don't turn up" or turn up, but don't actually do the exam - would have saved me a lot of stress, and more leisure time (I only managed one night out in the entire 5 weeks).
And these people who claim they didn't fly, but logged the hours, and were "given" a pass - it's complete and utter BS.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is more than anecdotal now that there is more than passing concern about the standard of the IR training in Spain. Take, for instance, this example:
An individual did his IR training with a very professional school on the south coast. He did much more than the required hours and failed the initial Skill Test – he then went to Spain and did another complete IR course with well know Madrid based school and had a successful skill test pass. When he subsequently applied to the CAA for issue of his CPL (A) with the IR attached, this was refused on the grounds that he had not followed procedures (i.e. he had already failed the first test in a series in the UK and thus needed to complete it with the CAA). The CAA then stipulated that he undertake training as necessary, here in the UK, followed by the Skill Test.
This person went to another school in another part of the country and did some 60 hours of Sim training and 30 hours of actual twin engine flying! During this time he was advised by the school about the advisability of continuing, eventually another skill test was undertaken resulting in a partial pass. However the subsequent retest he then failed the NDB section again and thus lost his partial on the first series and would have then had to start a complete new series. I understand that the person has now taken the advice he should have taken in the beginning.
There are many more similar examples, but it appears that most people who find themselves in this position go to Spain before they get to this situation quoted above.
So the two issues that come out of this are:
1. If you have any doubts about your ability to pass an IR properly – then get yourself of to Spain. Especially if the school you are with in the UK has doubts about your ability to pass here BEFORE you take an attempt at the IRT here in the UK.
2. If you have passed the IRT here in the UK make very sure to highlight this on your applications and interviews with prospective employers so you are not associated muppets who have gone to Spain.
Unfortunately those of us who have passed here have to put up with the ignominy of being put in the same class as those who went to Spain. I certainly don’t think that the cost difference makes a blind bit of difference; people who couldn’t make the grade would go there anyway.
Frankly I am amazed that the Spanish schools don’t charge a premium for the service - perhaps the will soon!
An individual did his IR training with a very professional school on the south coast. He did much more than the required hours and failed the initial Skill Test – he then went to Spain and did another complete IR course with well know Madrid based school and had a successful skill test pass. When he subsequently applied to the CAA for issue of his CPL (A) with the IR attached, this was refused on the grounds that he had not followed procedures (i.e. he had already failed the first test in a series in the UK and thus needed to complete it with the CAA). The CAA then stipulated that he undertake training as necessary, here in the UK, followed by the Skill Test.
This person went to another school in another part of the country and did some 60 hours of Sim training and 30 hours of actual twin engine flying! During this time he was advised by the school about the advisability of continuing, eventually another skill test was undertaken resulting in a partial pass. However the subsequent retest he then failed the NDB section again and thus lost his partial on the first series and would have then had to start a complete new series. I understand that the person has now taken the advice he should have taken in the beginning.
There are many more similar examples, but it appears that most people who find themselves in this position go to Spain before they get to this situation quoted above.
So the two issues that come out of this are:
1. If you have any doubts about your ability to pass an IR properly – then get yourself of to Spain. Especially if the school you are with in the UK has doubts about your ability to pass here BEFORE you take an attempt at the IRT here in the UK.
2. If you have passed the IRT here in the UK make very sure to highlight this on your applications and interviews with prospective employers so you are not associated muppets who have gone to Spain.
Unfortunately those of us who have passed here have to put up with the ignominy of being put in the same class as those who went to Spain. I certainly don’t think that the cost difference makes a blind bit of difference; people who couldn’t make the grade would go there anyway.
Frankly I am amazed that the Spanish schools don’t charge a premium for the service - perhaps the will soon!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: mallorca
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an interesting thread!I trained and passed the IRT in the UK quite some time ago. I am now CFI of a commercial pilot school here in Spain and feel that I´m, probably more qualified than most to give my opinion on this matter.
1/ I have never had a student take a test on paper only. The very suggestion is ridiculous and to be honest, offensive. They take the skill test for the CPL always, weather integrated or modular, and again for the ME/IR. The examiner is nothing to do with the school and I actually try to change examiner when I can so that no bond is formed. This is not as easy as in the UK as our examiners here in Spain are 90% flying for the airlines and hard to book.
2/ The training here is to the same syllabus as every other JAA country. I agree with a previous post that the IR skills taught here are very much orientated to flying commercially and not towards passing a test. This has it´s pros and cons but on the whole it turns out well prepared pilots. (I´ve just lost 2 low hour instructors to the airlines and the amount of students that get jobs is very high). In the UK I was taught to a standard that is certainly very high but it was just a ticking boxes procedure which I now look back on as being somewhat pedantic.
As to the approaches flown here for the test. If on the day of the test the approach is denied by ATC then you have to either fly it on the sim or go up again or fly to another airport. (You cannot book slots for training due to the fact that the international airports are very busy with all the tourists coming in).
3/I think that anyone who says that practices such as phantom tests/flights, are facts and has first hand knowledge of them, should report it to the DGAC.
And I should just mention that although they are very slow, closed in August, dont answer the phone etc.. They are certainly not fools and if you could see the amount of documentation I have to send in every time for license issue, you would realise that inventing flights and not taking tests just isnt even an option.
4/As to the person needing extra IR traing for their CPL, wel... maybe they should come and finish here in Spain. We follow the syllabus to the best of our ability. The instrument flying required for the CPL is basic to say the least and the CPL is often done before the IR in the UK as well as here.
5/ I would apprciate it if you all realised that different countries will do things different ways. A childish "my country is better than yours" debate is not very productive. If things are wrong here then we need to do something about it (and I´m sure that some things could be loads better) and likewise in the UK. I can still remember very well the dozens of VFR flights taking off in IMC!
And just to finish, my last IR modular student has 6500 hours on an ICAO non JAA license and flies a Mustang. He chose Spain to convert to JAA because of the good wx, good prices and good training. Dont think you can call him a muppet who cant make the grade.
I havent mentioned the school I work for or where we are because I dont want it considered to be publicity, not due to any other reason.
As to the premium for UK students...thanks for the idea, I´ll consider it very carefully!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brentford
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if you do IR in Spain or any other JAA country, it is recognised in all JAA countries.
porridge
: I worked in department dealing with licensing issues and what you are saying is not true at all and doesn't make any sense.
porridge
: I worked in department dealing with licensing issues and what you are saying is not true at all and doesn't make any sense.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So breakbreak, if you worked in the "department" you say you did, you might know the case I am referring to. Also what part is not true? I do have the facts and so do CAA FCL. Short of naming the person involved and their CAA ref number I'm sure you'll be able to work it out from your "departmental" experience.
Go figure everyone!
Go figure everyone!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: west Midlands. UK
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think 'Breakbreak' raises an fair point here - if 'Porridge' was the students instructor why did he not identify /recitfy the problems his student was obviously having. During my training I came across some schools/instructors who were quite happy for me to simply burn a hole in my account, criticising but making no real effort to suggest remedies to problems. Let's not forget, these schools are running a business to make money and, therefore, some will keep the student with them as long as possible (I'm not suggesting that they all have this philosophy just 'some'). During my first IR test (which I failed) the examiner recognised that my 'scan' was incorrect and that, if he were my instructor, he could cure the problem in about four hours - why hadn't my instructor picked up on this fact? Anybody that has studied and passed the ATPL exams (which most IR students will have done) has obviously studied hard. Most will also have passed their CPL test, so they are not stupid (or 'muppets' as Porridge so eloquently puts it). Can you really blame them, if having spent all that time, money and effort, they opt to go to Spain to get the requisite IR before the three year time limit expires - most will be virtually skint by this time and at £250 to £300 per hour for twin IR training in the UK some will have no other option (aside from the cheaper cost in Spain, due to the weather you can virtually guarantee completing the course in about four weeks - definitely NOT possible in the UK . If you have to take time off from your day job this can be a very important factor as well).
You will get good and bad instructors/schools in all countries. I have personal experience in UK, USA and Spain. Just because you pay a 'lot' more in the UK doesn't necessarily equate to better instruction.
You will get good and bad instructors/schools in all countries. I have personal experience in UK, USA and Spain. Just because you pay a 'lot' more in the UK doesn't necessarily equate to better instruction.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK, mainly
Age: 39
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the little I've seen of people who've trained both in Spain and the UK (UK IR for me, Spanish IR for a friend and also for my MCC partner last year) a lot depends on the individual. I suspect a certain amount of the poor reputation of Spanish IRs is down to a significant amount of "slower" students going for that option because of the existing reputation for cheaper & easier training - it's a vicious circle. Yes, of course there are benefits to doing the entire course in the aircraft in real flying, although sim training also has benefits when it comes to getting the basics spot on before adding the complexity of the real thing.
Oddly enough this came up in conversations with 2 separate CAA Staff Examiners last year. One didn't discuss the standards, but did say that he could see a lot of training migrating down to the Med over the next few years to take advantage of the weather. The other mentioned a lack of any formal provable evidence of poor training (accepting in all fairness that certain schools do train to a very high standard!) but said that the CAA were concerned about variable training standards when issuing the same rating to everyone.
Maybe it's partly about training for the environment you intend to fly in? Personally, I felt I gained a lot from training to operate single pilot IFR through some of the weather we had last September, without the option to climb above weather. Equally, flying in good weather gives more of a chance to get the approaches nailed perfectly every time. It's always a compromise! On the other hand, I'm somewhat sceptical of places that can complete an FIC in 3 weeks as a friend teaching elsewhere did. Hard to fit both the flying and groundschool requirements in in that time!
Quite a long post I'm afraid, but I'd hope there were a few valid points worth considering there, as well as some middle ways to look at.
Oddly enough this came up in conversations with 2 separate CAA Staff Examiners last year. One didn't discuss the standards, but did say that he could see a lot of training migrating down to the Med over the next few years to take advantage of the weather. The other mentioned a lack of any formal provable evidence of poor training (accepting in all fairness that certain schools do train to a very high standard!) but said that the CAA were concerned about variable training standards when issuing the same rating to everyone.
Maybe it's partly about training for the environment you intend to fly in? Personally, I felt I gained a lot from training to operate single pilot IFR through some of the weather we had last September, without the option to climb above weather. Equally, flying in good weather gives more of a chance to get the approaches nailed perfectly every time. It's always a compromise! On the other hand, I'm somewhat sceptical of places that can complete an FIC in 3 weeks as a friend teaching elsewhere did. Hard to fit both the flying and groundschool requirements in in that time!
Quite a long post I'm afraid, but I'd hope there were a few valid points worth considering there, as well as some middle ways to look at.