Whats the £100 for ?

[Leezyjet]

About to start my CPL in the near future and I have been chatting to some current/previous students about what to expect etc.

All the usual answers until they got to the bit about the 170A.

All said the same, you pay the school for the a/c and the CFI/Deputy CFI to take it as one would expect, but this next bit has me baffled. They said that the CFI's expect you to pay £100 in cash to them as well for taking you on the test and you don't get a receipt for it

Apparently they do the same to PPL students too (which I didn't do with them), and again for the IR.

Now in the bigger picture, £100 isn't a huge amount, but this is expected EACH time you have to take a 170A.

Some people also said this is the "norm" at other schools too, so just thought I'd ask if it is or is this school trying to pull a fast one in basically bribing the CFI to pass you, and if you don't pay up then they will fail you regardless of how well you have done - of course they know you cannot take the real test until they have passed you on the 170A, or is there some legitimate reason for it ?.

Not too happy about it personally and at the moment it isn't too late to pull out, but then I wouldn't be able to get on another course with another school right away, so might just have to fork it out rather than further delay training.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

[capt.sparrow]

You are not required to have a 170a for entry to the CPL test anyway - only required for the IR. Sounds like a con. Dont pay it.

[daria-ox]

Somethin is definately wrong there. They shouldn't be charging you these money eveytime you take the 170A..

[MIKECR]

A 170A is required for both the CPL and IR Skills Tests. The Examiner will expect you to have the necessary 170A form(passed of course) with you on the actual skills test day. As for paying £100 to the CFI for the privelage of his company on a 170A, i can honestly say first i've heard of it. Sounds like a money making excersise to me.

[BigGrecian]

Not the first I've heard of it by any means. Although not common it is becoming more so and in my opinion, it is becoming a better check as 170 examiners begin to devote more time to the check.

Think of it like a business and if you say it isn't then you need a reality check!

An authorised 170 examiner, has to apply for his status and basically pay to renew it. They are pretty much just one rung down the ladder from an examiner and thus have a large amount of experience and expertise. The school often generally pays someone with this experience more to retain them. Experienced staff demand higher wages or they move on....

You are paying for their experience, skill set and judgement skills.

[A and C]

Hidden charges

There seems to be a lot of this sort of thing creaping in, one opperator how has recently been taken over it now starting to charge extra for landings and another one on the south coast charges a £300 "registration fee" for it's structured hours building course (whatever structured hours building is!?).

The message is clear you must ask before flying what the full cost of the flight is and if they don't tell you don't pay !

[TheOddOne]

...of course you could pay it and then bubble him/her to HMRC for non-payment of tax on earned income (once you've safely got your CPL, of course!)

Examiners undoubtedly need to earn money to live, just like the rest of us. I recall my 170A test - the fee was included in the aircraft hire at the CPL training rate.

Put it in the context of having building work done and paying a lesser amount for cash, i.e. the builder doesn't declare it for income tax or VAT. I guess it all depends upon your moral stance on the 'Black Economy'.

The 'declared' rate would work out at around £150, if the tax evading rate is £100.

As you correctly say, paying cash leads to all sorts of moral issues around bribery and corruption. A slippery slope. It would be a pity if we descended into this and became like some other nations!

TheOddOne

[EK4457]

Firstly, 170A is a form to be filled out by a CAA qualified person. NOTHING more. It is to confirm that you are suitable to sit the relevant skills test. Both in terms of competance AND paperwork/experience.

Now, if the 170A signatory has never seen you fly, then obviously he will want to do so. Logically, in the form of a practice test. However, if they were your instructor during the course, this may not be required.

Bottom line. 170A is just a form which needs to be signed before test. They need to see you reach test standard. There is NO reason why this can't be done as part of your course (thus, NO extra charge). If he is charging £100 to sign the form, that is nothing short of extaution. If you choose to pay and he doesn't give you a reciept, then I'm sure that Her Maj's Inland Revenue AND the CAA would be interested about these 'non - standard' operating/accounting procedures.

If they advertise that the 170A signature has a fee and you choose to pay, then that is fair enough. I wouldn't though. There is no reason why the student should pay for the 170A's expenses. It is an overhead of running a FTO. When did you last get charged for your intructors class 1 medical? Besides, £100 is outrageously OTT.

EK

[tom_ace]

I don't think handing your 170a examiner a £100 back hander is a wise choice, they should be paid by your flight school in their salary.

[BigGrecian]

Some flight schools use external 170 examiners. Who aren't on the school's pay roll.

170 examiners are basically examiners in their own right (Especially where a flight IS required) and, entitled to charge as they wish. The CAA wouldn't care less about their accounting practises.

[Leezyjet]

Think of it like a business and if you say it isn't then you need a reality check!

An authorised 170 examiner, has to apply for his status and basically pay to renew it. They are pretty much just one rung down the ladder from an examiner and thus have a large amount of experience and expertise. The school often generally pays someone with this experience more to retain them. Experienced staff demand higher wages or they move on....

You are paying for their experience, skill set and judgement skills.

Of course it is a business, but it is up to the school to see that the 170 examiner is fairly rewarded for their experience, not the student in the form of a back hander, and if not then it is up to the 170 examiner to look elsewhere for suitable renumeration for their skills if school A isn't paying them their worth.

A commercial pilot in the airline industry doesn't walk down the cabin with cap in hand requesting £100 cash from each passenger to get them there in one piece, so the same should not be required of the student with the 170A.

I recall my 170A test - the fee was included in the aircraft hire at the CPL training rate.

Exactly, and this is also the case at said flying school, the £100 is extra to this.

As you correctly say, paying cash leads to all sorts of moral issues around bribery and corruption. A slippery slope. It would be a pity if we descended into this and became like some other nations!

I agree, we are supposed to be training to be professional aviators, not some dodgy back street builders. If I do pay, then in a way I'm condoning it, but if I don't I run the risk of them failing me even if I have performed well and making me take extra lessons and another test, which would be more expensive then the £100 !!.

Some flight schools use external 170 examiners. Who aren't on the school's pay roll.

At this particular school, they are on the payroll.

EK4457

Totally agree.

I'll ask them directly about it when I'm next down there. There may be a legitimate reason, but the way several students have described it, just sounds a little fishy to me.

If it comes down to having to pay it, I will offer to pay by credit card or cheque, but I am not paying them cash.

[mini-jumbo]

170 examiners are basically examiners in their own right (Especially where a flight IS required) and, entitled to charge as they wish. The CAA wouldn't care less about their accounting practises.

Correct, the CAA might not care, however HMRC will.

[mad_jock]

Tell the taxman of this cash payment before you go there.

It won't be there by the time you arrive.

BTW there is no flight test for the cpl it is only a paper work exercise so if the school is trying to sting you for 2 hours in the complex and 100 quid bung your being done by over 500 quid.

[EK4457]

170 examiners are basically examiners in their own right (Especially where a flight IS required) and, entitled to charge as they wish. The CAA wouldn't care less about their accounting practises.

Do not underestimate what the CAA 'care less' about. Many an examiner has lost their status through 'paperwork oversights'. If somone is unfairly gaining a financial advantage on the back of their CAA staus, they tend to be very interested.

Of course, not that I am accusing anybody of anything. Purely hypothetical...

[EK4457]

And if the 170A is not on the payroll, then it is an overhead of the school. They cannot claim to provide a complete course without the 170A signature.

[Black Jake]

The 170 is a certificate of course completion and competence, it is not an exam. It's purpose is to inform the examiner who does your CPL or IR skill test that you have completed an approved course, met all the requirements for test and have a good chance of passing it - so he or she doesn't have to trawl through your training records to check for themselves. The person who signs the 170 form is not acting as an examiner and might not even be one. He or she is a senior instructor who has been authorised by the CAA to check that you are ready for test - so you don't waste your test fee and the examiner's time if you're not. It's all in CAA Standards Document 6 which is freely available on the website.

[Treeshaver]

This 100 quid sounds like the work of Dobbers. That cheeky sod makes a killing of 170s! Tell him where to stick it or you'll shop him to the tax man.

[supramkiv]

I would question this personally, certain "flight schools" seem to use anything over and above what is considered a regular lesson to charge an extortionate amount of money.

My C170a for my CPL (undertaken at a reputable UK school) was charged at the standard rate (amazing how they managed to do this while some C170a examiners run up such huge expenses maintaining the privilege).

It took 1 1/2 hours of flying and half hour of briefing and 5 minutes to complete the form. That would make it approx an additional £50 an hour for the tester on top of their wage if i had paid an further £100. That's more then alot of jet captain's earn an hour.

Buyer beware, this sort of charging is particually common with foreign JAA schools, where they hold a captive audience who have a high buy out penalty if they are not happy with their treatment.

[Leezyjet]

Treeshaver

I won't mention the schools name or person/s involved as it is just hearsay at the moment, but from several different sources on different days/times.

However has anyone actually not paid up though AND passed the 170A ?.

[Private jet]

Sounds like an example of the "bloodsucker" culture that seems to be a part of the flight training process. The suggestion of a call to HMRC is a good one.