Integrated vs Modular
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 359
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From: Guildford
MikeCR, I think I remember talking to you and being impressed before...once more....congrats, that's an awesome feat. For what it's worth, I went integrated for the simple reason I could afford to without taking the debt and I figured being a bit older at the start, finishing as quickly as possible was the best thing for me.
Colomiers has posted pretty much exactly what I wanted to say, very succinctly. In any walk of life, in any job, you will find your fair share of monkeys....but you'll also find some great mates for life if you look for them.
Prophead...the problem being, whilst your point about int students needing to live whilst on course is valid to some degree, even if you are still working, those living costs don't go away. The quid pro quo of offsetting your living costs (by working whilst training), is that you can't dedicate all of your money or time to flight training, so it normally takes longer, unless you go full time mod...in which case it's equally valid to apply these costs to both routes. Finally, whilst you save initially, for the sake of validity you should also consider the final amount you LOSE by taking longer to get "the same licence", in terms of overall career earnings and seniority - the point colomier latterly raised. It really is horses for courses...unfortunately some can't even see there IS a second side to the argument, let alone comprehend it and then make an informed choice....which leads me to ....
Shaun. Ahhh, Shaun. You place me in a dilemma. I really can't be arsed to respond to someone who frankly clearly can't see that there is any other possiblility than the choice they personally made. I'll just wish you well and hope that at some point in the future you begin to understand that if the airlines that typically take the int guys stop hiring, then the fact those int guys AREN'T being picked up by the traditional airlines, means there's more competition for every other job....and that's definitely not good for anyone.
Colomiers has posted pretty much exactly what I wanted to say, very succinctly. In any walk of life, in any job, you will find your fair share of monkeys....but you'll also find some great mates for life if you look for them.
Prophead...the problem being, whilst your point about int students needing to live whilst on course is valid to some degree, even if you are still working, those living costs don't go away. The quid pro quo of offsetting your living costs (by working whilst training), is that you can't dedicate all of your money or time to flight training, so it normally takes longer, unless you go full time mod...in which case it's equally valid to apply these costs to both routes. Finally, whilst you save initially, for the sake of validity you should also consider the final amount you LOSE by taking longer to get "the same licence", in terms of overall career earnings and seniority - the point colomier latterly raised. It really is horses for courses...unfortunately some can't even see there IS a second side to the argument, let alone comprehend it and then make an informed choice....which leads me to ....
Shaun. Ahhh, Shaun. You place me in a dilemma. I really can't be arsed to respond to someone who frankly clearly can't see that there is any other possiblility than the choice they personally made. I'll just wish you well and hope that at some point in the future you begin to understand that if the airlines that typically take the int guys stop hiring, then the fact those int guys AREN'T being picked up by the traditional airlines, means there's more competition for every other job....and that's definitely not good for anyone.
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,846
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From: Bristol, England
Hello Colomiers,
You may be taking this too personally, I'm not talking about you or denigrating your motivation. We train both modular and integrated students so I think I can comment on the generalities. There are very gifted students taking both routes and also some less so. Some of the younger integrated students we have had through have not been particularly easy. I have even had instructors, on occasions, complain they are talking amongst themselves at the back of the class, which to me is an indication of both immaturity and overconfidence, this would be unheard of with modular students, it has only ever occured when training integrated cadets.
Most of our modular students are in the 25 to 40 age range, changing careers, most of the integrated students are 20 to 25-ish. In general it is the single pilots that jump ship early on in their employment, the married ones, usually older, go more for stability and a quiet life and tend to be more satisfied with turboprop/regional jobs. Anyone can go to BA, if they want, you only need 500 hours+ of commercial experience and they'll consider you as a DEP. Not everyone wants to, BA ain't what it used to be. A case in point, BA poached some ex CTC cadets from Easyjet last year, modular trained. None of the 'we only take integrated' rubbish, well, not if they are line trained and we are short staffed. Another case in point, a friend of mine, single, modular trained, started with BAC Express flying sheds, then joined CityFlyer, and after BA took them over he now flies the 777. No-one said 'excuse me, did you go to an integrated school?'
You may be taking this too personally, I'm not talking about you or denigrating your motivation. We train both modular and integrated students so I think I can comment on the generalities. There are very gifted students taking both routes and also some less so. Some of the younger integrated students we have had through have not been particularly easy. I have even had instructors, on occasions, complain they are talking amongst themselves at the back of the class, which to me is an indication of both immaturity and overconfidence, this would be unheard of with modular students, it has only ever occured when training integrated cadets.
Most of our modular students are in the 25 to 40 age range, changing careers, most of the integrated students are 20 to 25-ish. In general it is the single pilots that jump ship early on in their employment, the married ones, usually older, go more for stability and a quiet life and tend to be more satisfied with turboprop/regional jobs. Anyone can go to BA, if they want, you only need 500 hours+ of commercial experience and they'll consider you as a DEP. Not everyone wants to, BA ain't what it used to be. A case in point, BA poached some ex CTC cadets from Easyjet last year, modular trained. None of the 'we only take integrated' rubbish, well, not if they are line trained and we are short staffed. Another case in point, a friend of mine, single, modular trained, started with BAC Express flying sheds, then joined CityFlyer, and after BA took them over he now flies the 777. No-one said 'excuse me, did you go to an integrated school?'
Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 24th April 2008 at 23:28.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2
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From: Kent
So i wasnt imagining it then.
Clanger32
Im not sure i understand what your getting at.
Yes modular takes longer but you are earning as well in that time and not borrowing/paying back with interest money for rent/food etc. Your argument about the potential salary lost is not really a valid one IMO because you are not paying back a huge loan for years. You may also get a type rating for the extra cost of integrated and therefore not be paying that back from your salary.
These kind of points though really do vary from person to person and we are getting a bit to in depth.
The bottom line is for the price of an integrated course you could get the same licence + TR and maybe even some hours on type. It is possible to get all this whilst working a full time job and many people do. If you have the money there is nothing wrong at all with integrated but dont think you are any better than anyone else no matter what the schools tell you. And think very carefully about borrowing a huge amount of money or taking your parents equity based on the schools marketing blurb.
Clanger32
Im not sure i understand what your getting at.
Yes modular takes longer but you are earning as well in that time and not borrowing/paying back with interest money for rent/food etc. Your argument about the potential salary lost is not really a valid one IMO because you are not paying back a huge loan for years. You may also get a type rating for the extra cost of integrated and therefore not be paying that back from your salary.
These kind of points though really do vary from person to person and we are getting a bit to in depth.
The bottom line is for the price of an integrated course you could get the same licence + TR and maybe even some hours on type. It is possible to get all this whilst working a full time job and many people do. If you have the money there is nothing wrong at all with integrated but dont think you are any better than anyone else no matter what the schools tell you. And think very carefully about borrowing a huge amount of money or taking your parents equity based on the schools marketing blurb.
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 33
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From: West Sussex
Colomiers quote:
Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy' paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.
Well said!
This is a common opinion shared by many on PPRuNe!
Surely its not where you have come from...its where you are heading!!!
Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy' paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.
Well said!
This is a common opinion shared by many on PPRuNe! Surely its not where you have come from...its where you are heading!!!
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: UK
Colomiers quote:
Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy' paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.
I second that well said
I have worked for 8 years in a crappy supermarket so save the money to fly and i finally got it and start Cabair integrated in May
Where do people get off thinking the can make comments like 'mommy and daddy' paid for their integrated training so they're not really dedicated and only want to fly big shiney jets'.
The arrogance it must take to come out witha statement like that is bloody astounding!! Who the hell do these people think they are.
I second that well said
I have worked for 8 years in a crappy supermarket so save the money to fly and i finally got it and start Cabair integrated in May
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2
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From: Kent
MasterD
Working a crappy job and saving up that kind of cash is a hell of an achievement and shows a huge amount of determination. Well done, i hope you enjoy Cabair and im sure it will work out for you.
Out of interest though what was it that made you decide to save the full amount for 8 years instead of doing it modular as you were working? Im not trying to hint at anything and tell me to mind my own business if you like, but im geuinely interested to know.
Working a crappy job and saving up that kind of cash is a hell of an achievement and shows a huge amount of determination. Well done, i hope you enjoy Cabair and im sure it will work out for you.
Out of interest though what was it that made you decide to save the full amount for 8 years instead of doing it modular as you were working? Im not trying to hint at anything and tell me to mind my own business if you like, but im geuinely interested to know.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 359
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From: Guildford
Prophead, I think we're actually on more or less the same page. I am integrated, but certainly don't think I'm any better (or worse) than anyone else just because of that fact.... FWIW, I also worked bloody hard for ten years to build up a successful enough career that I could afford to go int without taking debt, which is why it pinches when some clown comes on and claims that it's just mummy and daddy all the time for all integrated...
In terms of what I was trying to say previously....it's just that living cost is a constant...it is there whether you are full time integrated, full time modular or just full time working. The argument often used that it should be included in the overall cost of integrated is that you have to find that money whilst having no income. All I'm saying is that yes, if you're working you don't have to find that additional income, but it instead eats at your disposable income, which slows down the pace at which you can get qualified. As the aviation industry is tail weighted, salary wise, then qualifying earlier means that you hit bigger bucks sooner....and that is the trade off.
FWIW, if I didn't have the cash in the bank to do int, would I have taken the loan? I don't know. There are so many factors to consider. For example, I very much doubt anyone could LEARN the theory syllabus in anything less than the 6 months the int schools teach it in, so you either take year(s?) passing the theory, or learn the answers....neither of which was attractive to me. As you say though...the balancing act between these points varies from person to person...I just wish more people would understand that....
In terms of what I was trying to say previously....it's just that living cost is a constant...it is there whether you are full time integrated, full time modular or just full time working. The argument often used that it should be included in the overall cost of integrated is that you have to find that money whilst having no income. All I'm saying is that yes, if you're working you don't have to find that additional income, but it instead eats at your disposable income, which slows down the pace at which you can get qualified. As the aviation industry is tail weighted, salary wise, then qualifying earlier means that you hit bigger bucks sooner....and that is the trade off.
FWIW, if I didn't have the cash in the bank to do int, would I have taken the loan? I don't know. There are so many factors to consider. For example, I very much doubt anyone could LEARN the theory syllabus in anything less than the 6 months the int schools teach it in, so you either take year(s?) passing the theory, or learn the answers....neither of which was attractive to me. As you say though...the balancing act between these points varies from person to person...I just wish more people would understand that....
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 495
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From: On the side of the pitch!
This always makes me laugh. This overpriced method of training that some schools sex up is genius. It must be one of the cleverest marketing scams in history, it's brilliant. Less hours than modular, mostly in the US and double the price. Oh but they MAY get you an interview!!
Come on guys don't get sucked in, especially with the credit crunch, no career is worth that. I work with guys who went integrated and have £100k+ worth of debt around their necks like everlasting millstones and for what, a job? Me I have none; modular evenings and weekends, whilst working a desk all the way, paid as I went took less than 2 years start to finish. Got A320 job with big LHR airline with less than 300 hours TT, and I didn't pay for a rating. Don't get conned!!
And BTW I think all flight training is overpriced, before the bastions of integrated come defending their perches!!
Come on guys don't get sucked in, especially with the credit crunch, no career is worth that. I work with guys who went integrated and have £100k+ worth of debt around their necks like everlasting millstones and for what, a job? Me I have none; modular evenings and weekends, whilst working a desk all the way, paid as I went took less than 2 years start to finish. Got A320 job with big LHR airline with less than 300 hours TT, and I didn't pay for a rating. Don't get conned!!
And BTW I think all flight training is overpriced, before the bastions of integrated come defending their perches!!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 239
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From: N/E England
No, I’m afraid that is not the case, somewhat possible generalisation I’m afraid. Integrated Students may on average complete their programme in a relative shorter period of time, then those who choose a modular approach, nevertheless, it is possible to complete the modular direction in a much shorter timeframe if personal circumstances permit one to. In fact, I believe there are less restriction, one can progress at their desired pace through the duration of training. Indeed, a very close friend of mine successfully accomplished their full training within 14months, [Hour Building, CPL and IR]. This also included initial PPL training, albeit, the PPL activity was undertaken in the states. Family commitments encouraged his decision in choosing the modular approach.
However….
We really must move away the argument which is better; rather, one should identify what best suits their personal needs.
However….
We really must move away the argument which is better; rather, one should identify what best suits their personal needs.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 359
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From: Guildford
"We really must move away the argument which is better; rather, one should identify what best suits their personal needs."
Amen to that.
And yes, it is a generalisation, in that I do believe you could do modular in a shorter time frame, indeed I know one guy who is just about done having spent about a year total on it. But the point is, that's full time, which kinda negates some of the benefits of doing mod. Anyway, where you can really make up time with mod is the flying, which can be slow paced at times integrated....I specifically mentioned ground school tho...and I stand by the comment I don't think you could learn the syllabus in less than six months..
Amen to that.
And yes, it is a generalisation, in that I do believe you could do modular in a shorter time frame, indeed I know one guy who is just about done having spent about a year total on it. But the point is, that's full time, which kinda negates some of the benefits of doing mod. Anyway, where you can really make up time with mod is the flying, which can be slow paced at times integrated....I specifically mentioned ground school tho...and I stand by the comment I don't think you could learn the syllabus in less than six months..
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 239
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From: N/E England
Clanger32 – As has been noted on several posts, the argument “what is best”, effectively comes down to personal circumstances. Regardless of which side of the fence one resides, there will always be another throwing stones from the opposite side…..
What would you choose…?
If one is hungry with a limited budget of 65p and only has two options – [a] Purchase a well known brand of baked beans priced @ 65p. Alternatively, [b] purchase a no-frills self-branded tin of baked beans priced at @ 35p, with the remaining change of 30p, purchase a loaf of bread to accompany the meal – Both will satisfy the hunger..!
What would you choose…?
If one is hungry with a limited budget of 65p and only has two options – [a] Purchase a well known brand of baked beans priced @ 65p. Alternatively, [b] purchase a no-frills self-branded tin of baked beans priced at @ 35p, with the remaining change of 30p, purchase a loaf of bread to accompany the meal – Both will satisfy the hunger..!
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 232
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From: g1000ville
Charlie?? what have you been smoking?? heinz beans??? If you're really on a budget, you could save the end of product of said beans and sell it as biofuel!!
for what it's worth, I'm at the "heinz" of FTO's for groundschool and there's no way on gods earth that i'll be doing my flight training with them. I'll be doing my training for half the price in one of those "glass tins"!!
for what it's worth, I'm at the "heinz" of FTO's for groundschool and there's no way on gods earth that i'll be doing my flight training with them. I'll be doing my training for half the price in one of those "glass tins"!!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10
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From: CLM
Alex,
i'm not going to argue with you regarding students at bristol, a school i know little about. what i can comment on are the integrated students at oxford, and to a lesser extent, jerez. less than 1% of the people i met were there because they kind of thought flying might be a bit of a laugh. the other 99%+ were by far the most dedicated, hardworking bunch of people i've ever known. without exception. my point - in my experience integrated/modular has no bearing on determination.
MasterD,
well done! busting your ass for 8 years has PROVEN without any doubt that you are as dedicated as they come. You've saved up and made the decision to go integrated - best of luck with that! Incedently, had you been born to oil baron parents and had everything handed to you on a silver platter your entire life would you be any less dedicated. i'm sure not. the fact that you haven't had to save hard for training doesn't mean your not as dedicated as the next guy. This is the crux of point.
Getting back to the debate, i went integrated and it worked out for me. why? primarily luck. I got straight into the airline i wanted to spend my career in and didn't have to pay for a typerating. i knew starting out that the chances of this were small but luckily it worked out. i could not have done this had i gone modular.
However, the majority of oxford grads did have to pay for typeratings - £20k ontop of an already serious debt.
Some points to consider though -
Although in debt to the tune of £60k, most people had little trouble extending their loan to fund a typerating, as long as they have a letter of intent from an employer.
With modular you could potentially save the cost of a typerating.
This is absolutley true. However, that type rating MUST be conducted with an airline and after selection with that airline. NEVER pay for a 'white-tail' typerating. This is worse than useless. I've heard it straight from the mouths of a number of recruitment managers that under no circumstances will they take someone who comes to them with a typerating they've done off their own bat. paying for hours on type is worse again.
So basically you could have an int guy and a mod guy sitting beside each other in ryanair type rating course. the mod guy could have potentially saved £30k (?). in this case obviously things have worked out for the mod guy.
What it comes down to is whether int training is more likely to get you onto that type course and if so is it worth the extra cash?. I don't know the answer to that and i'm pretty certain NO ONE does. all u can do is make an educated guess and hope for the best.
i'm not going to argue with you regarding students at bristol, a school i know little about. what i can comment on are the integrated students at oxford, and to a lesser extent, jerez. less than 1% of the people i met were there because they kind of thought flying might be a bit of a laugh. the other 99%+ were by far the most dedicated, hardworking bunch of people i've ever known. without exception. my point - in my experience integrated/modular has no bearing on determination.
MasterD,
well done! busting your ass for 8 years has PROVEN without any doubt that you are as dedicated as they come. You've saved up and made the decision to go integrated - best of luck with that! Incedently, had you been born to oil baron parents and had everything handed to you on a silver platter your entire life would you be any less dedicated. i'm sure not. the fact that you haven't had to save hard for training doesn't mean your not as dedicated as the next guy. This is the crux of point.
Getting back to the debate, i went integrated and it worked out for me. why? primarily luck. I got straight into the airline i wanted to spend my career in and didn't have to pay for a typerating. i knew starting out that the chances of this were small but luckily it worked out. i could not have done this had i gone modular.
However, the majority of oxford grads did have to pay for typeratings - £20k ontop of an already serious debt.
Some points to consider though -
Although in debt to the tune of £60k, most people had little trouble extending their loan to fund a typerating, as long as they have a letter of intent from an employer.
With modular you could potentially save the cost of a typerating.
This is absolutley true. However, that type rating MUST be conducted with an airline and after selection with that airline. NEVER pay for a 'white-tail' typerating. This is worse than useless. I've heard it straight from the mouths of a number of recruitment managers that under no circumstances will they take someone who comes to them with a typerating they've done off their own bat. paying for hours on type is worse again.
So basically you could have an int guy and a mod guy sitting beside each other in ryanair type rating course. the mod guy could have potentially saved £30k (?). in this case obviously things have worked out for the mod guy.
What it comes down to is whether int training is more likely to get you onto that type course and if so is it worth the extra cash?. I don't know the answer to that and i'm pretty certain NO ONE does. all u can do is make an educated guess and hope for the best.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 514
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From: earth
Colomiers, you seem to contradic yourself there. On the one hand if you are already £60,000plus in debt its quite easy to get anither £20K or so? Well if you go to Ryanair, they might give you a letter. However, you might drop out of their course, line training and if you do get dropped you lose all your money. SO maybe the bank might be a touch cautious.
If your Modular and you have spent, saym £40,000 you too might be able to get a loan for £20k for said type rating and if needs be pay £10k for the dreaded 500 hours.
Incidentally, I have also heard from the mouths of Chief Pilots and Recuitment Managers that by Self funding type ratings is one hell of a way to show commitment and they would and do employ people going down this route. And you know what, if you go to a american company and get sone hours with them then you are even more likley to get a job, the facts speak for themselves.
If your Modular and you have spent, saym £40,000 you too might be able to get a loan for £20k for said type rating and if needs be pay £10k for the dreaded 500 hours.
Incidentally, I have also heard from the mouths of Chief Pilots and Recuitment Managers that by Self funding type ratings is one hell of a way to show commitment and they would and do employ people going down this route. And you know what, if you go to a american company and get sone hours with them then you are even more likley to get a job, the facts speak for themselves.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: CLM
Hello ford
Quote ford cortina:
"Colomiers, you seem to contradic yourself there. On the one hand if you are already £60,000plus in debt its quite easy to get anither £20K or so? "
Of the people i trained with, many had a £60k loan from hsbc. upon finishing their course they then did sim checks and interviews with an airline/training provired. They were offered a place on a type rating (which they have to pay for) and given a letter which basically says "if you pass this typerating to our standards and we still needs pilots in 3 months we'll give you a job".
This letter is taken to the bank manager and the student tells them how they've already succeeded at oxford and they now have an airline interested in them. with £20k they can get on this course and barring some pretty bad luck, get a job at the end of it.
lets call this scenario case A.
now look at case B. you come out of oxford and can't get an interview. you go to the bank manager and say "i've suceeded at oxford but can't get a job. i want to borrow another £20k to pay for a typerating which will hopefully increase my chances of getting a job"
for a bank manager Case A is far, far less risky than case B. Even if case B was modular and had less debt to begin with they are a much higher risk. what the bank manager is interested in is your ability to pay back your borrowings. the amount of borrowings is less important.
I know quite a few 'Case As'. they all managed to secure the extra funding without too much bother.
Quote ford cortina:
"I have also heard from the mouths of Chief Pilots and Recuitment Managers that by Self funding type ratings is one hell of a way to show commitment and they would and do employ people going down this route."
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here. you can 'self fund' a typerating after interviewing with an airline, upon completion of which they will (almost certainly) give you a job.
You can also pick a type yourself (e.g. a320) and go and do a typerating on it, after which you start looking for a320 jobs.
If chef pilots are advocating the latter then i would do everything in my power to avoid them like the plague. An fATPL is highly transportable. An a320 type rating with generic SOPs is useless to any airline as it stands. they have to undertake serious retraining to convert you to their SOPs.
regarding going to an American company an getting some hours, i don't know what you're talking about. i would be interested to know if you'd care to expand.
I stand by my original advice though, DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING UNLESS THERE IS A JOB AT THE END OF IT. paying for hours is equally out of the question.
People say Ryanair is a sh1tty outfit - and they are!! They certainly wouldn't be anyones first choice BUT, they do offer a good stepping stone if other more desirable options are not available. you pay (less than many other airlines) for your typerating and that is it. granted the pay is crap for the first 6 months but at least you're getting paid as opposed to paying for the privilege of flying passengers around. and after six months they pay is actually GOOD. get 1500hrs and get out!
Compare this to the likes of Astraeus (pure evil in my eyes). pay for a type rating and then pay more to fly our paying passengers around for 40 hrs. where do you go from there. i'm pretty sure any of the uk 75/73 operators won't be too interested in you with 4o hrs on type.
I can't imagine how sh1tty it must be to be sitting around qualified for a year and no sign of a job. but surely the likes of astraeus must be the very last resort. with china and india expanding like they are are there any opportunities down there? spend a year and a half, get 1500hrs and move back to europe. i have no idea how viable this option is but it's something i'd look long and hard at before paying to fly passenger jets.
Quote ford cortina:
"Colomiers, you seem to contradic yourself there. On the one hand if you are already £60,000plus in debt its quite easy to get anither £20K or so? "
Of the people i trained with, many had a £60k loan from hsbc. upon finishing their course they then did sim checks and interviews with an airline/training provired. They were offered a place on a type rating (which they have to pay for) and given a letter which basically says "if you pass this typerating to our standards and we still needs pilots in 3 months we'll give you a job".
This letter is taken to the bank manager and the student tells them how they've already succeeded at oxford and they now have an airline interested in them. with £20k they can get on this course and barring some pretty bad luck, get a job at the end of it.
lets call this scenario case A.
now look at case B. you come out of oxford and can't get an interview. you go to the bank manager and say "i've suceeded at oxford but can't get a job. i want to borrow another £20k to pay for a typerating which will hopefully increase my chances of getting a job"
for a bank manager Case A is far, far less risky than case B. Even if case B was modular and had less debt to begin with they are a much higher risk. what the bank manager is interested in is your ability to pay back your borrowings. the amount of borrowings is less important.
I know quite a few 'Case As'. they all managed to secure the extra funding without too much bother.
Quote ford cortina:
"I have also heard from the mouths of Chief Pilots and Recuitment Managers that by Self funding type ratings is one hell of a way to show commitment and they would and do employ people going down this route."
I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here. you can 'self fund' a typerating after interviewing with an airline, upon completion of which they will (almost certainly) give you a job.
You can also pick a type yourself (e.g. a320) and go and do a typerating on it, after which you start looking for a320 jobs.
If chef pilots are advocating the latter then i would do everything in my power to avoid them like the plague. An fATPL is highly transportable. An a320 type rating with generic SOPs is useless to any airline as it stands. they have to undertake serious retraining to convert you to their SOPs.
regarding going to an American company an getting some hours, i don't know what you're talking about. i would be interested to know if you'd care to expand.
I stand by my original advice though, DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING UNLESS THERE IS A JOB AT THE END OF IT. paying for hours is equally out of the question.
People say Ryanair is a sh1tty outfit - and they are!! They certainly wouldn't be anyones first choice BUT, they do offer a good stepping stone if other more desirable options are not available. you pay (less than many other airlines) for your typerating and that is it. granted the pay is crap for the first 6 months but at least you're getting paid as opposed to paying for the privilege of flying passengers around. and after six months they pay is actually GOOD. get 1500hrs and get out!
Compare this to the likes of Astraeus (pure evil in my eyes). pay for a type rating and then pay more to fly our paying passengers around for 40 hrs. where do you go from there. i'm pretty sure any of the uk 75/73 operators won't be too interested in you with 4o hrs on type.
I can't imagine how sh1tty it must be to be sitting around qualified for a year and no sign of a job. but surely the likes of astraeus must be the very last resort. with china and india expanding like they are are there any opportunities down there? spend a year and a half, get 1500hrs and move back to europe. i have no idea how viable this option is but it's something i'd look long and hard at before paying to fly passenger jets.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 514
Likes: 0
From: earth
Okay some common sense here then, Astraeus, no longer offer an hour buliding program.
Eagle Jet do offer line training programs, funny that, as the 737 course has a 100% job sucess rate, ask the pilots themselves. They are said American Company. Right or wrong does not come in to it, people will do what is right for them.
By doing a Type Rating, you are learning how to fly a jet, thats all, there is nothing else.
Generic, ie Boeing, SOP's are not that much different than any other airline SOP's. Also how hard is it to learn new SOP's, I mean on Engine Fire, Severe damage and seperation, the Boeing and Airline SOP's are going to be very similar, if not the same. I have converted my SOP's (B737) more than three times now for different companies, god that was not too hard, in the space of a few years. So that argument does not stand up, period.
The Ryanair offer is, on paper at least, very good. However assuming you pass the interview etc, if you fail anything on the type rating, they can ask and do, i know somone who just got binned very recently, to leave. They keep all your money, so bye bye. He is now £20K worse off, no type rating and no job.
Wow thats a great idea, if he had paid for his own type rating, he would at least have it, which has to be better than being £20K out of pocket with nothing to show for it.
Eagle Jet do offer line training programs, funny that, as the 737 course has a 100% job sucess rate, ask the pilots themselves. They are said American Company. Right or wrong does not come in to it, people will do what is right for them.
By doing a Type Rating, you are learning how to fly a jet, thats all, there is nothing else.
Generic, ie Boeing, SOP's are not that much different than any other airline SOP's. Also how hard is it to learn new SOP's, I mean on Engine Fire, Severe damage and seperation, the Boeing and Airline SOP's are going to be very similar, if not the same. I have converted my SOP's (B737) more than three times now for different companies, god that was not too hard, in the space of a few years. So that argument does not stand up, period.
The Ryanair offer is, on paper at least, very good. However assuming you pass the interview etc, if you fail anything on the type rating, they can ask and do, i know somone who just got binned very recently, to leave. They keep all your money, so bye bye. He is now £20K worse off, no type rating and no job.
Wow thats a great idea, if he had paid for his own type rating, he would at least have it, which has to be better than being £20K out of pocket with nothing to show for it.
Last edited by ford cortina; 27th April 2008 at 11:04.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: CLM
ford,
i'm obviously out of date with my astraeus info - that was the case when i graduated, which wasn't a million years ago.
regarding ryanair, i know a couple of guys who struggled through their rating - extra circuits at base among other things. ryanair didn't make ay extra charge for this. things may have changed since then but that was only about a year ago.
regarding your aquaintance who didn't get through the ryanair type rating; what makes you so sure he would have passed if he'd being doing it by himself. I obviously don't know they guy and his personal circumstances, but in general, if enough people undertake a type course, some will fail. this is an unfortunate fact of life. everyone knows when singing up for a self-funded type course (whether it be with ryanair or some of the more respected airlines) there is a chance of failure.
similarly, if you undertake a typerating off your own back then there MUST be a chance of failure - otherwise it is worthless. you don't buy a type rating - you buy the training and then take a test.
I've googled eaglejet and come up with the following : www.eaglejet.net/index.htm
I had never heard of this. from the website i gather you can get 100 hrs on type for $12900US not including typerating. this company actually offers up to 500hrs on type!!
I freely admit i know nothing about this outfit, but on first inspection it almost makes me sick. I really feel bad for someone who is forced down this route - the fact that our industry has come to this is dismal. But that's an entirely different thread altogether.
Getting back to the point, do you know what (jaa) airlines this company places you with? do they actually offer (guaruntee?) any paid employment after you've paid for a rating and then 100 (200/500)hrs?
I can't say for certain but i would imagine that most major uk/european airlines would have very low regard for this kind of experience if you decided to move on. it may even have a detrimental effect to your cv. but that is just speculation on my part. perhaps some current oxford students could ask the various recruitment guys who come in to speak to them.
p.s. - i am assuming that you are uk/europe based and are discussing jaa flying/careers.
i'm obviously out of date with my astraeus info - that was the case when i graduated, which wasn't a million years ago.
regarding ryanair, i know a couple of guys who struggled through their rating - extra circuits at base among other things. ryanair didn't make ay extra charge for this. things may have changed since then but that was only about a year ago.
regarding your aquaintance who didn't get through the ryanair type rating; what makes you so sure he would have passed if he'd being doing it by himself. I obviously don't know they guy and his personal circumstances, but in general, if enough people undertake a type course, some will fail. this is an unfortunate fact of life. everyone knows when singing up for a self-funded type course (whether it be with ryanair or some of the more respected airlines) there is a chance of failure.
similarly, if you undertake a typerating off your own back then there MUST be a chance of failure - otherwise it is worthless. you don't buy a type rating - you buy the training and then take a test.
I've googled eaglejet and come up with the following : www.eaglejet.net/index.htm
I had never heard of this. from the website i gather you can get 100 hrs on type for $12900US not including typerating. this company actually offers up to 500hrs on type!!
I freely admit i know nothing about this outfit, but on first inspection it almost makes me sick. I really feel bad for someone who is forced down this route - the fact that our industry has come to this is dismal. But that's an entirely different thread altogether.
Getting back to the point, do you know what (jaa) airlines this company places you with? do they actually offer (guaruntee?) any paid employment after you've paid for a rating and then 100 (200/500)hrs?
I can't say for certain but i would imagine that most major uk/european airlines would have very low regard for this kind of experience if you decided to move on. it may even have a detrimental effect to your cv. but that is just speculation on my part. perhaps some current oxford students could ask the various recruitment guys who come in to speak to them.
p.s. - i am assuming that you are uk/europe based and are discussing jaa flying/careers.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 514
Likes: 0
From: earth
Col,
Yes I could not agree more, that the world is a bad old place if people are forced down this route.
To be fair there are people with large UK and European companies after finishing with the program. It did not hinder them, they got jobs.
Whether it is morally right or wrong, well I am not going to get into that.
Yes I am disscussing JAA.
Yes I could not agree more, that the world is a bad old place if people are forced down this route.
To be fair there are people with large UK and European companies after finishing with the program. It did not hinder them, they got jobs.
Whether it is morally right or wrong, well I am not going to get into that.
Yes I am disscussing JAA.
Last edited by ford cortina; 27th April 2008 at 12:42.
