Start of my dream. Day 1
Join Date: Dec 1999
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I was told that i should do all the ppl exams and get my class 1 medical before doing any flying whatsoever so its out of the way. Does that seem like good advice?
I cannot believe that you have already saved up for flying training, intended starting yesterday, and are asking extremely basic questions while planning your training based upon one afternoon's research.
Without wishing to be too negative, there are a number of sticky threads at the top of the forum, with links to all the details you need and are asking about on this thread, and years' of debate over the best course of training.
My positive message to you is to stop returning to this thread for at least a week, and post nothing further until you have read and digested all that accumulated information.
I wish you luck, but suggest no further posts until you are somewhat more informed.
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Why is there a big secret????????????
If people know the anserw why insist on people searching through endless forums instead of just telling people?
And yes i have decided on what order as thats the order that seems most logical.
Im fed up of this forum and its negative attitude already. This is why flying instructors earn peanuts. Its there attitude and moaning ways that turn people away. I work in sales and could convert practically every person that walked through my door instead of trying to make them look stupid.
Im going to just go and research in private on other forums and stick to that.
Geez
If people know the anserw why insist on people searching through endless forums instead of just telling people?
And yes i have decided on what order as thats the order that seems most logical.
Im fed up of this forum and its negative attitude already. This is why flying instructors earn peanuts. Its there attitude and moaning ways that turn people away. I work in sales and could convert practically every person that walked through my door instead of trying to make them look stupid.
Im going to just go and research in private on other forums and stick to that.
Geez
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In no way do I mean any offence, but researching the various training schools on the web and, as has previously been said, draw up a plan of attack is the most valuable advice you will probably get from Pprune!
There are many ways in attaining the goal and for someone who has been saving for a while; I think you are still a little naïve (Ground school before CPL/ME training no point in putting it off!). I have gone through what you are about to embark on and still occasionally look back with the benefit of hindsight and think how ill-informed I was before buying a product for £60,000, not to mention the loss of earnings and accommodation/living expenses I’m sure you will have too.
Go to the Flyer show, it could be a good reality check!
Nobody has mentioned an integrated course (depending on how much money ‘you have to burn’ as that instructor so eloquently put it!), which would make the need to get a PPL now an unnecessary expense. The other benefit is that it’s a bit like whipping a plaster off quickly as opposed to slowly pulling at it! However local modular training can be as effective, if not more so, depending on your situation.
So: (in my opinion (which is worth very little))
-Spend more than one afternoon on research
-Class one medical
-Definitely get a couple of trail lessons to make sure you enjoy it.
-Maybe read an ATPL ground school book to get an idea what is expected of you.
-Visit some airfields and speak to people, but go as an informed person, as I think it will mean you won’t get the same response as you did the other day.
Whatever you do after that is a choice hundreds make every year and some regret and others don’t and I wish you all the best with what can be the best career in the world.
AP
There are many ways in attaining the goal and for someone who has been saving for a while; I think you are still a little naïve (Ground school before CPL/ME training no point in putting it off!). I have gone through what you are about to embark on and still occasionally look back with the benefit of hindsight and think how ill-informed I was before buying a product for £60,000, not to mention the loss of earnings and accommodation/living expenses I’m sure you will have too.
Go to the Flyer show, it could be a good reality check!
Nobody has mentioned an integrated course (depending on how much money ‘you have to burn’ as that instructor so eloquently put it!), which would make the need to get a PPL now an unnecessary expense. The other benefit is that it’s a bit like whipping a plaster off quickly as opposed to slowly pulling at it! However local modular training can be as effective, if not more so, depending on your situation.
So: (in my opinion (which is worth very little))
-Spend more than one afternoon on research
-Class one medical
-Definitely get a couple of trail lessons to make sure you enjoy it.
-Maybe read an ATPL ground school book to get an idea what is expected of you.
-Visit some airfields and speak to people, but go as an informed person, as I think it will mean you won’t get the same response as you did the other day.
Whatever you do after that is a choice hundreds make every year and some regret and others don’t and I wish you all the best with what can be the best career in the world.
AP
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There is no secret, no negativity, just a MASSIVE HUGE GINORMOUS amount of information on every aspect of flight training and aviation careers.
You can't expect people to teach you, we're just people, everyday people, some with aviation related jobs, some without, we haven't got time to give you a complete impartial guide to your career.
At the same time, ask the right questions and people are very helpful and have a wealth of knowledge to share.
Make sure they haven't shared it already!
You can't expect people to teach you, we're just people, everyday people, some with aviation related jobs, some without, we haven't got time to give you a complete impartial guide to your career.
At the same time, ask the right questions and people are very helpful and have a wealth of knowledge to share.
Make sure they haven't shared it already!
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There is no secret - the information is clearly laid out, and telling you piecemeal does not help when you have follow-on questions, which are also clearly explained in the old threads.
You cannot embark on training, intending to follow a "logical" order of your choosing, when clearly 24 hours ago you did not even know that a PPL was a requirement of a modular fATPL.
If you do not like taking advice and listening to people, don't bother with a career in aviation.
The reason people appear negative to you is that typically, people in aviation are consummate professionals, and have done their homework before asking scattergun questions about the basics.
Furthermore, there is no boundless optimism here, as this is one of the few places that will give you impartial and realistic advice. If you want to be swept in by the marketing, only to find in 4.5 years that your licence is worthless and there are no jobs available for someone of your experience, be my guest. There are countless licences issued to people in the UK alone that are never used in professional flying, precisely caused by lack of planning and research. At least being on this forum, take some advice and learn from others, and you won't find yourself having flushed upwards of £80k down the toilet for nothing.
You cannot embark on training, intending to follow a "logical" order of your choosing, when clearly 24 hours ago you did not even know that a PPL was a requirement of a modular fATPL.
If you do not like taking advice and listening to people, don't bother with a career in aviation.
The reason people appear negative to you is that typically, people in aviation are consummate professionals, and have done their homework before asking scattergun questions about the basics.
Furthermore, there is no boundless optimism here, as this is one of the few places that will give you impartial and realistic advice. If you want to be swept in by the marketing, only to find in 4.5 years that your licence is worthless and there are no jobs available for someone of your experience, be my guest. There are countless licences issued to people in the UK alone that are never used in professional flying, precisely caused by lack of planning and research. At least being on this forum, take some advice and learn from others, and you won't find yourself having flushed upwards of £80k down the toilet for nothing.
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OK guys, I am beginning to see why Mr. POTS is getting a bit hacked off! 
Please POTS, don't abandon Pprune.....there is a lot if good information here....personally I didn't intend to cause any offence.
A lot of people have been through the hoops already and have been bitten or been messed around and want to help a fellow pilot...it is just that most people expect others to do a little leg work first.
Anyway, I think your outline plan is a good one....it is in the right order. However, did you know you can do your ME and IR before the CPL...it knocks some time off your CPL course (5 hours I think?) best check. You can also do your CPL on a twin....might be a good/bad idea but I think you can claim some credit in terms of hours. Plus you can do your ME training following by your IR taining...then do both tests....you test when you've got the maximum hours on the aeroplane which seems like a good idea to me. See Bristol Flying Centre...they do it this way.
Also, I think (note - think!) that you can order your ATPL groundschool notes right away without a PPL. I think you need a PPL to be enrolled on the course but not to begin the study if you're doing it distance learning....I would verify that though as I'm not 100% sure. If it is true though you can start your ATPL theory while you're doing your PPL....might be a bit cumbersome to manage but it is something I would investigate. I may be wrong about that though.
I know you have a family and don't want to travel, but it might be less disruptive for you to head to the US for a fixed period to hour build or do your CPL than to be constantly darting out of the house on a nice day to go flying??
Anyway, please PM me if you need any information...
Please POTS, don't abandon Pprune.....there is a lot if good information here....personally I didn't intend to cause any offence.
A lot of people have been through the hoops already and have been bitten or been messed around and want to help a fellow pilot...it is just that most people expect others to do a little leg work first.
Anyway, I think your outline plan is a good one....it is in the right order. However, did you know you can do your ME and IR before the CPL...it knocks some time off your CPL course (5 hours I think?) best check. You can also do your CPL on a twin....might be a good/bad idea but I think you can claim some credit in terms of hours. Plus you can do your ME training following by your IR taining...then do both tests....you test when you've got the maximum hours on the aeroplane which seems like a good idea to me. See Bristol Flying Centre...they do it this way.
Also, I think (note - think!) that you can order your ATPL groundschool notes right away without a PPL. I think you need a PPL to be enrolled on the course but not to begin the study if you're doing it distance learning....I would verify that though as I'm not 100% sure. If it is true though you can start your ATPL theory while you're doing your PPL....might be a bit cumbersome to manage but it is something I would investigate. I may be wrong about that though.
I know you have a family and don't want to travel, but it might be less disruptive for you to head to the US for a fixed period to hour build or do your CPL than to be constantly darting out of the house on a nice day to go flying??
Anyway, please PM me if you need any information...
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POTS as you are a cheshire lad , well stokey but you'll claim to be from cheshire. 
If you are free this friday give me a pm . I am flying with a friend from barton in a lovely G1000 Cessna 172 . If you are willing to do a bit of cost sharing I will take you up for a spin for as long as you like . No pressure no crap just have a look at the aeroplane and I will introduce you to some of the instructors at LAC and RVR. Both Myself and friend are undergoing training for atpls at the moment . I will give you an insight into my findings opinions and decisions if you wish .There will also no doubt be a few commercial airline pilots at Barton who you can chin wag with .
Offers there matey if you want
If you are free this friday give me a pm . I am flying with a friend from barton in a lovely G1000 Cessna 172 . If you are willing to do a bit of cost sharing I will take you up for a spin for as long as you like . No pressure no crap just have a look at the aeroplane and I will introduce you to some of the instructors at LAC and RVR. Both Myself and friend are undergoing training for atpls at the moment . I will give you an insight into my findings opinions and decisions if you wish .There will also no doubt be a few commercial airline pilots at Barton who you can chin wag with .
Offers there matey if you want
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You asked a question and people took the time to give you an answer. Your question was seemingly born out of some grey comments you had received from a flying instructor you had spoken to.
The replies you have received have all contained elements of good advice and comment. Whether you perceive them as positive or negative is up to you. The thing with any advice is you can listen, digest and then decide what you want to pursue further. One persons experience is likely very different from another persons experience. On the other hand there are a lot of common basics concerning flying training, that you will find by taking the time to research them here on PPRuNe and elsewhere. Anybody and everybody will be happy to assist with any questions and offer advice and anecdotes from their own experience.
The reality is that it is a very expensive, frustrating, and difficult career for most people to aspire to. Those that will succeed are usually the people who can persevere and adapt. To that end there is a implicit acceptance that an individual will have done some basic research on which to hang their questions. You were dissappointed by the comments of a flying instructor. As already stated you probably had good cause, however the comments you received contained in themselves a large element of truth.
This "living the dream" and "King of the skies" stuff is all very nice, but if you simply want a pat on the back at this stage or some form of admiration that is not likely to be very forthcoming other than from a few people in a similar situation. On the other hand if you want good advice (or the best chance of getting it) then do a bit of research and let it show in the questions you are asking.
No one is trying to make you look stupid. You would be wise to listen to the cautionary tales and advice ( or negativity as you call it), as other peoples costly lessons might well save you a fortune in the future. As I have already said that flying instructor was a very poor salesman and if he had been working for me, he would have been out. However as you will (hopefully) quickly learn there are plenty of people out there who will be only too happy to part you from your cash in return for sharing your dream. As other people have told you, this is a big investment with absolutely no guarantees, and you should tread very carefully indeed. You are certainly going to make mistakes, the secret is ( and no it isn't a big secret ) to do your research, so that those mistakes are small and minimized.
The replies you have received have all contained elements of good advice and comment. Whether you perceive them as positive or negative is up to you. The thing with any advice is you can listen, digest and then decide what you want to pursue further. One persons experience is likely very different from another persons experience. On the other hand there are a lot of common basics concerning flying training, that you will find by taking the time to research them here on PPRuNe and elsewhere. Anybody and everybody will be happy to assist with any questions and offer advice and anecdotes from their own experience.
The reality is that it is a very expensive, frustrating, and difficult career for most people to aspire to. Those that will succeed are usually the people who can persevere and adapt. To that end there is a implicit acceptance that an individual will have done some basic research on which to hang their questions. You were dissappointed by the comments of a flying instructor. As already stated you probably had good cause, however the comments you received contained in themselves a large element of truth.
This "living the dream" and "King of the skies" stuff is all very nice, but if you simply want a pat on the back at this stage or some form of admiration that is not likely to be very forthcoming other than from a few people in a similar situation. On the other hand if you want good advice (or the best chance of getting it) then do a bit of research and let it show in the questions you are asking.
No one is trying to make you look stupid. You would be wise to listen to the cautionary tales and advice ( or negativity as you call it), as other peoples costly lessons might well save you a fortune in the future. As I have already said that flying instructor was a very poor salesman and if he had been working for me, he would have been out. However as you will (hopefully) quickly learn there are plenty of people out there who will be only too happy to part you from your cash in return for sharing your dream. As other people have told you, this is a big investment with absolutely no guarantees, and you should tread very carefully indeed. You are certainly going to make mistakes, the secret is ( and no it isn't a big secret ) to do your research, so that those mistakes are small and minimized.
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Aren’t we all feeling a bit ashamed of ourselves for being so rough on a nice young man who has a wad of cash and just wants to be a pilot. 
Can’t you remember back to watching Capprio in ‘Catch me if you can’ and thinking I fancy some of that, how hard can it be.
And now we have figured out that just because the charts are flat, the world isn’t. When you go up it’s a bit chilly and hard to breathe. And some bits in the engine go up and down while other bits round and round.
Suddenly were aviators not just mere mortals
Surely some kind FTO is out there, willing to lend a hand at spending some dosh without all that inconvenience of research and choosing stuff
P.S. I guess he is lucky not have decided Integrated was best, unable to decide what colour his first shinny jet should be and have met the grammar police
Please come back we are nice really (might help with a bit more research first)
Can’t you remember back to watching Capprio in ‘Catch me if you can’ and thinking I fancy some of that, how hard can it be.
And now we have figured out that just because the charts are flat, the world isn’t. When you go up it’s a bit chilly and hard to breathe. And some bits in the engine go up and down while other bits round and round.
Suddenly were aviators not just mere mortals
Surely some kind FTO is out there, willing to lend a hand at spending some dosh without all that inconvenience of research and choosing stuff
P.S. I guess he is lucky not have decided Integrated was best, unable to decide what colour his first shinny jet should be and have met the grammar police
Please come back we are nice really (might help with a bit more research first)
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POTS, I think I'm in a similar position to you... except minus the savings!
One thing that I have found helps has been to break the process down into small steps/ stages. It will turn that massive mountain in front of you into a series of hills, not only making it seem more achievable but also you will get a few moments along the way to feel proud of yourself and you will feel like you are making progress.
I will be taking a few flying lessons this month to get a taster (I flew with the Air Cadets many moons ago but not since) just to make sure I still enjoy flying and that I've made the right decision. I'm also hoping to watch one of my stepdad's flying lessons to get a taster of some of the more advanced stuff.
One of the things that I will be considering is obtaining a CPL before I start studying the fATPL subjects. At this very early stage my plans are very flexible and NOTHING is set in stone but I would like to complete the CPL training and head off to Aus/ NZ to fly parachutists to build my hours whilst simutaniuosly studying for an fATPL.
This way I will be able to study whilst building my hours and experience, and also making the subject matter more relevant to me.
Does this sound like a good idea to the seasoned pros or should I go back to the drawing board? I will welcome any advice, tips or suggestions.
One thing that I have found helps has been to break the process down into small steps/ stages. It will turn that massive mountain in front of you into a series of hills, not only making it seem more achievable but also you will get a few moments along the way to feel proud of yourself and you will feel like you are making progress.
I will be taking a few flying lessons this month to get a taster (I flew with the Air Cadets many moons ago but not since) just to make sure I still enjoy flying and that I've made the right decision. I'm also hoping to watch one of my stepdad's flying lessons to get a taster of some of the more advanced stuff.
One of the things that I will be considering is obtaining a CPL before I start studying the fATPL subjects. At this very early stage my plans are very flexible and NOTHING is set in stone but I would like to complete the CPL training and head off to Aus/ NZ to fly parachutists to build my hours whilst simutaniuosly studying for an fATPL.
This way I will be able to study whilst building my hours and experience, and also making the subject matter more relevant to me.
Does this sound like a good idea to the seasoned pros or should I go back to the drawing board? I will welcome any advice, tips or suggestions.
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No Spence , you cant hold a CPL without taking the atpl's and passing them , unless you only did the CPL exams , which is not really adviseable unless you want to be a career instructor and dont feel you will ever do an IR
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Thanks Max. I'll go back to the drawing board then. 
It's no biggie really as it's going to be a long time before I get to that stage.
I just liked the idea of flying during the day and studying on the beach at night rather than doing it in sunny Croydon!
It's no biggie really as it's going to be a long time before I get to that stage.I just liked the idea of flying during the day and studying on the beach at night rather than doing it in sunny Croydon!
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Get your PPL enrol on a DL atpl GS course then goto your beach , hour build in the day study at night , if that suits ya . But dont be under any illusion as to just how much studying you will have to be doing .
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So back to being nice and constructive
I found an excellent place to start was Gapan as they give an unbiased an very informative introduction to a career as a pilot
http://www.gapan.org/careers/pilotadvice.htm
You must get a medical… no medical..no career
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49
your timing is good to visit the Flyer exhibition…many earlier posts have recommended it
http://www.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions/
Prune is a great research tool. Start with;
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649
Good Luck 'Princeof theskies'
and come back soon
Many people are more than happy to help once you have the basics
I found an excellent place to start was Gapan as they give an unbiased an very informative introduction to a career as a pilot
http://www.gapan.org/careers/pilotadvice.htm
You must get a medical… no medical..no career
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49
your timing is good to visit the Flyer exhibition…many earlier posts have recommended it
http://www.flyer.co.uk/exhibitions/
Prune is a great research tool. Start with;
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649
Good Luck 'Princeof theskies'
and come back soon
Many people are more than happy to help once you have the basics
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Referring back to what POTS said about the useless PPRuNe search function, i've been using my own which can be accessed here:
www.yesmobiles.co.uk/non-site/pprune/
Feel free to bookmark/use it if you want.
www.yesmobiles.co.uk/non-site/pprune/
Feel free to bookmark/use it if you want.
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Did an instructor really suggest to pass ALL PPL exams before even having a trial lesson???
this is not only stupid as the trial lesson in my view is where it all starts, it's also stupid in the business sense for his school!!
Have a trial lesson, get a class 2 (or class one if you are serious about commercial), pass your air law, go solo, pass the rest whilst completing PPL.
That would be my logical pre commercial training route, and also the one I followed.
this is not only stupid as the trial lesson in my view is where it all starts, it's also stupid in the business sense for his school!!
Have a trial lesson, get a class 2 (or class one if you are serious about commercial), pass your air law, go solo, pass the rest whilst completing PPL.
That would be my logical pre commercial training route, and also the one I followed.
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PRINCE:
Given some of the awfully negative responses on here and before you all retort with realistic, they ain't, they are just plain negative, I thought I would at least give you an idea of what I did.
I had a very nice career, electrical engineering and marketing, that unfortunately did not satisfy me, I had a go at a PPL in 1991, trying to get into the forces, but this did not pan out. So there I was laying in bed one night (september the 10th 2001 actually) when I decided that I had to give it a go, I had to try to become a pilot, if that did not work out for medical reasons then I was at least going to persue a PPL / IMC / Night and IR.
So the next day I booked my class one medical, as someone else said, no medical no job, so of all the advice so far given I would encourage you to get or at least try for a class one, this will at least give the green light to go for it or drive you down the path of recreational flying if that is your thing.
I at this stage had no idea what I needed to do to get an fATPL. So whilst waiting for the medical I researched it a bit (not to the levels that some people on here would have you believe) and found that I needed PPL, Multi, ATPL Writtens, CPL, IR and MCC, and this is how I tackled it, in that list in that order. I was at the time too old for CTC or the like and I had to remain in employment whilst doing the flying / studying so it was modular for me.
Before I had the medical I decided that if I only got a class 2 I would at least go for some recreational flying, so a PPL was the first step and something I could get in motion before I had the medical answer. So I sold my motorbike and persued a PPL, this was done at the weekends at a very local to me flying club on a small grass airfield. I would just add here that I already had 30 odd hours so I had the PPL completed in a few months. It takes a long time to complete if you are part time, weekends, as you need to get instructors, aircraft and of course the weather to complete the course. During this I, of course, got the medical answer, a class one was duly issued so I had the green light to go for the fATPL (and an fATPL is what you are aiming for at this stage, getting a commercial job is a whole other ball game, but you cannot get a job without the licence!!)
Now I had the green light I needed to do some more research, next on my list was the ATPL writtens, remember I am modular, so there was only one answer as far as I could see and that was Bristol GS. I booked the course and allocated 18 months to get them done, I had a full time job on the go too, I could have gone faster I suppose, but there was no need, there weren't any jobs at this stage anyway, also I still needed to build enough hours to start the CPL. I started the study but to keep my hand in I also did an IMC rating, no need to but it gave me the confidence to do some decent cross countries, and someone I met, a good friend now, put me in touch with a cheap group on an aircraft that allowed me to do these cross countries at a reasonable cost. I did the IMC at the same school as the PPL by the way. So I was happily working, doing an IMC, hour building and studying for the ATPLs.
Just to add to the challenge I also did a multi rating just prior to me sitting the first set of ATPLs. I did this at another school, part time (weekends and evenings)...so far this has taken me the best part of two years. Just to take some time off, I spent the rest of this year, doing cross countries and just plenty of flying, I also got my CPL cross country qualifier in during this period, I sat the first ATPLs in July and planned to start the next lot of studying in Jan (no rush as I said earlier). Also I as I knew that I would start the CPL the next year and the nights were getting longer I did the night rating, again at the same school as the Multi rating.
So Jan came and I got my head down again for the second lot of ATPL study, this took another 6 months and I sat them in July, all passed, I cannot recommend Bristol highy enough they were great.
Now I had the hours, the exams done and the qualifying cross country under my belt I could start the CPL flying, again prior to this I researched it and found a school close to where I worked at the time that could fit me in the evenings and weekends (this was my criteria for the choice, not their name or any other fancy named add ons that they could offer, I needed simply a Multi CPL / IR and that is what I went for) So this is school number three.
I started the CPL in the autumn of 2004, remember I booked the medical in Autumn 2001, so three years on at this stage, and did as much as I could through the autumn / winter all at weekends, this is where the weather hit hard and many a weekend was a write off, very frustrating. In fact by Decemeber I felt that progress was too slow, nothing to do with the school, just the Great Brtish weather, so in Jan 2005 I also started the IR. I could do some of this, to start with, in their sim, so this worked well and I did a lot of this in the evenings after work, so I felt progress was being made again. The weather improved in the new year, enough for me to get the CPL done by April (I started it in Sept so it took sometime), this left the IR as far as the flying was concerned and as this was less weather dependent I had this done by June 05, I would say that doing the two at the sametime was tough, but it meant that I was as current as poss on handling an aircraft, instrument scan and swapping types, between singles, complex and twins, not a bad thing really. Just to highlight the weather impact and this above all things in my opinion can slow you down, I got weathered off twice for my IR test, and this was in May / June, so allow some contingency for the weather!!
So what now, well I needed to the MCC, so where could I get one done quickly (I was excited now as I had all the other boxes ticked) and cheaply, there is no need to spend big on an MCC, all employers want is a certificate. So this lead me to school 4 (5 if you count the groundschool!!). This took another two weeks and was one of the few times where I had to take some time off work unpaid, up til this point I had managed to do the lot using weekends, evenings and paid holidays.
This is where the trouble starts in my opinion, you have all the boxes ticked, not much money, not many hours, I had 380 at this point so more than some others have and there you are applying for jobs. A complete anti-climax!!! I make no bones about this point cos it is an anti-climax, I had planned my life, in stages, for the last 4 years to get to this point, my path was clear, but now I was on my own with not a lot to offer to be honest, well in terms of flying experience, to further complicate the issue I was by now 35!!! But I was still in a good job which allowed me to fly enough to keep things current, I also had an IR to use and this allowed me to do some great long distance flying, all good stuff for the CV.
I applied to all the places that everyone else does, I sent letters where the weren't specific jobs on offer, but I did nothing out of the ordinary. By chance I noticed the BA Citiexpress online application go live almost as it was posted, so I sat down for a couple of hours, filled it in and posted it - I was applicant number 65 I think, so I was quick off the mark, I was asked for an interview / sim ride etc and entered their hold pool. Six months later I got the call, March 2006 5 1/2 years after I started the process.
Now all the stages up to getting the licence are through hard work, effort as well as some skill, in my limited experience getting the job was in no small part due to luck, sure I had to pass the sim ride / interview, but getting the chance of an interview etc was luck. There are many people that I fly with have the same feeling, there is a strong element of luck in finally landing that job, of course that are some that simply did everything that they could to be in recruiters faces, lived on the breadline for years instructing etc and they got their rewards, but there are many who do not get their rewards.
In summary what is it I am trying to say, well I think that the best way to tackle this is in chunks, plan each stage as it comes (of course integrated takes some of this planning away from you and if you are young then this might be the best option, esp as you have the cash) think about how you want to get the courses done, what time you can spare for each element, how are you going to get your hours, and you can never have too many of these, they are still valid once you are employed and will put you further up seniority lists if you join with a lot of others at the sametime, they could also shorten your time to command. I am proof that the school that you did the flying / study at is not the be all and end all, nor are first time passes, although performance is the one subject to concentrate on as employers do look at this one. If you want to start planning anything at all, I would start planning on how can you shorten your odds, how can I get my slice of luck, how can I land that job, I do not have the answers here, what I have tried to do is show you that it is possible, and it is possible without all the up front intensive planning that some on here say that you need to do. Just get on with it, cos until you have the licence you have no chance, if it does not happen you have at least tried and it would be sad to get to 65 full of regret eh??
I have been flying commercially now for 2 years, I should have done it much sooner in life, I love the job, it was worth the effort (but I have never been so skint as I am now by the way), BUT........ it beats working for a living!!!
Given some of the awfully negative responses on here and before you all retort with realistic, they ain't, they are just plain negative, I thought I would at least give you an idea of what I did.
I had a very nice career, electrical engineering and marketing, that unfortunately did not satisfy me, I had a go at a PPL in 1991, trying to get into the forces, but this did not pan out. So there I was laying in bed one night (september the 10th 2001 actually) when I decided that I had to give it a go, I had to try to become a pilot, if that did not work out for medical reasons then I was at least going to persue a PPL / IMC / Night and IR.
So the next day I booked my class one medical, as someone else said, no medical no job, so of all the advice so far given I would encourage you to get or at least try for a class one, this will at least give the green light to go for it or drive you down the path of recreational flying if that is your thing.
I at this stage had no idea what I needed to do to get an fATPL. So whilst waiting for the medical I researched it a bit (not to the levels that some people on here would have you believe) and found that I needed PPL, Multi, ATPL Writtens, CPL, IR and MCC, and this is how I tackled it, in that list in that order. I was at the time too old for CTC or the like and I had to remain in employment whilst doing the flying / studying so it was modular for me.
Before I had the medical I decided that if I only got a class 2 I would at least go for some recreational flying, so a PPL was the first step and something I could get in motion before I had the medical answer. So I sold my motorbike and persued a PPL, this was done at the weekends at a very local to me flying club on a small grass airfield. I would just add here that I already had 30 odd hours so I had the PPL completed in a few months. It takes a long time to complete if you are part time, weekends, as you need to get instructors, aircraft and of course the weather to complete the course. During this I, of course, got the medical answer, a class one was duly issued so I had the green light to go for the fATPL (and an fATPL is what you are aiming for at this stage, getting a commercial job is a whole other ball game, but you cannot get a job without the licence!!)
Now I had the green light I needed to do some more research, next on my list was the ATPL writtens, remember I am modular, so there was only one answer as far as I could see and that was Bristol GS. I booked the course and allocated 18 months to get them done, I had a full time job on the go too, I could have gone faster I suppose, but there was no need, there weren't any jobs at this stage anyway, also I still needed to build enough hours to start the CPL. I started the study but to keep my hand in I also did an IMC rating, no need to but it gave me the confidence to do some decent cross countries, and someone I met, a good friend now, put me in touch with a cheap group on an aircraft that allowed me to do these cross countries at a reasonable cost. I did the IMC at the same school as the PPL by the way. So I was happily working, doing an IMC, hour building and studying for the ATPLs.
Just to add to the challenge I also did a multi rating just prior to me sitting the first set of ATPLs. I did this at another school, part time (weekends and evenings)...so far this has taken me the best part of two years. Just to take some time off, I spent the rest of this year, doing cross countries and just plenty of flying, I also got my CPL cross country qualifier in during this period, I sat the first ATPLs in July and planned to start the next lot of studying in Jan (no rush as I said earlier). Also I as I knew that I would start the CPL the next year and the nights were getting longer I did the night rating, again at the same school as the Multi rating.
So Jan came and I got my head down again for the second lot of ATPL study, this took another 6 months and I sat them in July, all passed, I cannot recommend Bristol highy enough they were great.
Now I had the hours, the exams done and the qualifying cross country under my belt I could start the CPL flying, again prior to this I researched it and found a school close to where I worked at the time that could fit me in the evenings and weekends (this was my criteria for the choice, not their name or any other fancy named add ons that they could offer, I needed simply a Multi CPL / IR and that is what I went for) So this is school number three.
I started the CPL in the autumn of 2004, remember I booked the medical in Autumn 2001, so three years on at this stage, and did as much as I could through the autumn / winter all at weekends, this is where the weather hit hard and many a weekend was a write off, very frustrating. In fact by Decemeber I felt that progress was too slow, nothing to do with the school, just the Great Brtish weather, so in Jan 2005 I also started the IR. I could do some of this, to start with, in their sim, so this worked well and I did a lot of this in the evenings after work, so I felt progress was being made again. The weather improved in the new year, enough for me to get the CPL done by April (I started it in Sept so it took sometime), this left the IR as far as the flying was concerned and as this was less weather dependent I had this done by June 05, I would say that doing the two at the sametime was tough, but it meant that I was as current as poss on handling an aircraft, instrument scan and swapping types, between singles, complex and twins, not a bad thing really. Just to highlight the weather impact and this above all things in my opinion can slow you down, I got weathered off twice for my IR test, and this was in May / June, so allow some contingency for the weather!!
So what now, well I needed to the MCC, so where could I get one done quickly (I was excited now as I had all the other boxes ticked) and cheaply, there is no need to spend big on an MCC, all employers want is a certificate. So this lead me to school 4 (5 if you count the groundschool!!). This took another two weeks and was one of the few times where I had to take some time off work unpaid, up til this point I had managed to do the lot using weekends, evenings and paid holidays.
This is where the trouble starts in my opinion, you have all the boxes ticked, not much money, not many hours, I had 380 at this point so more than some others have and there you are applying for jobs. A complete anti-climax!!! I make no bones about this point cos it is an anti-climax, I had planned my life, in stages, for the last 4 years to get to this point, my path was clear, but now I was on my own with not a lot to offer to be honest, well in terms of flying experience, to further complicate the issue I was by now 35!!! But I was still in a good job which allowed me to fly enough to keep things current, I also had an IR to use and this allowed me to do some great long distance flying, all good stuff for the CV.
I applied to all the places that everyone else does, I sent letters where the weren't specific jobs on offer, but I did nothing out of the ordinary. By chance I noticed the BA Citiexpress online application go live almost as it was posted, so I sat down for a couple of hours, filled it in and posted it - I was applicant number 65 I think, so I was quick off the mark, I was asked for an interview / sim ride etc and entered their hold pool. Six months later I got the call, March 2006 5 1/2 years after I started the process.
Now all the stages up to getting the licence are through hard work, effort as well as some skill, in my limited experience getting the job was in no small part due to luck, sure I had to pass the sim ride / interview, but getting the chance of an interview etc was luck. There are many people that I fly with have the same feeling, there is a strong element of luck in finally landing that job, of course that are some that simply did everything that they could to be in recruiters faces, lived on the breadline for years instructing etc and they got their rewards, but there are many who do not get their rewards.
In summary what is it I am trying to say, well I think that the best way to tackle this is in chunks, plan each stage as it comes (of course integrated takes some of this planning away from you and if you are young then this might be the best option, esp as you have the cash) think about how you want to get the courses done, what time you can spare for each element, how are you going to get your hours, and you can never have too many of these, they are still valid once you are employed and will put you further up seniority lists if you join with a lot of others at the sametime, they could also shorten your time to command. I am proof that the school that you did the flying / study at is not the be all and end all, nor are first time passes, although performance is the one subject to concentrate on as employers do look at this one. If you want to start planning anything at all, I would start planning on how can you shorten your odds, how can I get my slice of luck, how can I land that job, I do not have the answers here, what I have tried to do is show you that it is possible, and it is possible without all the up front intensive planning that some on here say that you need to do. Just get on with it, cos until you have the licence you have no chance, if it does not happen you have at least tried and it would be sad to get to 65 full of regret eh??
I have been flying commercially now for 2 years, I should have done it much sooner in life, I love the job, it was worth the effort (but I have never been so skint as I am now by the way), BUT........ it beats working for a living!!!
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Age: 38
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I think it very considerate of the folks on here to be so helpful to prince and is a testament to Pprune for the helpfulness and friendliness which I’m of course all in favour of, however...
The few that suggested he required a reality check, I’m afraid I totally agree with! If you have circa 50 big ones to spend on anything (which you've presumably saved long and hard for), you need to know exactly what you're doing with it! That kind of cash would buy you 2/3 properties in somewhere like India!
The point also needs to be bought to the table that you NEED to be passionate or at least seriously interested in aviation/flying to go the distance (and expense) of obtaining your fATPL. This for me means naturally reading everything from Pilot magazine to AAIB report, but I do this more for pleasure than a necessity. I've been lurking on here for 2+ years just for pleasure reading everything, but particular regards to the Wannabee section. From this alone I feel I’ve learnt a great deal. I’ve only had one flying lesson but like many intend to progress this, but I sooo wouldn’t unless I knew what I was doing or getting into. I would feel to naïve and exposed. Hence I am leisurely swatting now (which I love!) while saving etc… (For the 2/3 or so years until I am in a position like yourself to embark).
I hate to say it prince but something doesn't add up or sound right with your comments. If you've been saving so much (presumably for a while), would you not naturally be reading any info on financial/training shortcuts, pros/cons etc etc?? It seems every flying magazine, every month in WH Smith has a section on flight training?
I would really ask yourself if you feel you’re into this enough to part with your huge sum of cash.
I really do think in this game, the ones completely switched on are the ones that get their and survive.
Just my thoughts and hope you or anybody else doesn’t take offence.
Jack
The few that suggested he required a reality check, I’m afraid I totally agree with! If you have circa 50 big ones to spend on anything (which you've presumably saved long and hard for), you need to know exactly what you're doing with it! That kind of cash would buy you 2/3 properties in somewhere like India!
The point also needs to be bought to the table that you NEED to be passionate or at least seriously interested in aviation/flying to go the distance (and expense) of obtaining your fATPL. This for me means naturally reading everything from Pilot magazine to AAIB report, but I do this more for pleasure than a necessity. I've been lurking on here for 2+ years just for pleasure reading everything, but particular regards to the Wannabee section. From this alone I feel I’ve learnt a great deal. I’ve only had one flying lesson but like many intend to progress this, but I sooo wouldn’t unless I knew what I was doing or getting into. I would feel to naïve and exposed. Hence I am leisurely swatting now (which I love!) while saving etc… (For the 2/3 or so years until I am in a position like yourself to embark).
I hate to say it prince but something doesn't add up or sound right with your comments. If you've been saving so much (presumably for a while), would you not naturally be reading any info on financial/training shortcuts, pros/cons etc etc?? It seems every flying magazine, every month in WH Smith has a section on flight training?
I would really ask yourself if you feel you’re into this enough to part with your huge sum of cash.
I really do think in this game, the ones completely switched on are the ones that get their and survive.
Just my thoughts and hope you or anybody else doesn’t take offence.
Jack