OH no .... :(

[boogie-nicey]

I really do get myself into these situations sometimes.....

I am about to undertake my IR conversion course from FAA to JAA (f-i-n-a-l-l-y) . However I have just had a quick peek in my logbook and noted that the dates mean my FAA IR will have lapsed. I only have a week or so before I start my course so my question is....

Can I technically start and undertake the course and get the FAA IR currency done after the JAA IR conversion training but BEFORE I send everything to the CAA and apply for my JAA IR. Or must I rush out and get it current before doing the JAA conversion course? It's my fault I know .....

I just attempted to phone the CAA but alas the luvvies down there close for business at 16:00hrs (working late again dear!)...... So thought I'd ask on pprune before they open up again tomorrow morning.

p.s. I love the CAA really

[dartagnan]

the JAA doesn't care about your FAA IR.
you can start your JAA conversion even if your FAA IR is expired cuz you will pass again an instrument check with a JAA examiner.
once you are done with your JAA IR flight test, it will revalidate your FAA privileges(FAA part 61... instruction given by a foreign instructor/examiner...).you don't need to wait for your license.

(If you were obtaining a validation, not a conversion, in this case, the CAA can ask you to maintain your IR FAA current.)

[Julian]

once you are done with your JAA IR flight test, it will revalidate your FAA privileges.

Are you sure about this? To renew an FAA IR outside the 12 month period requires either an FAA examiner, FAA instructor or someone authourised by the FAA to conduct instrument practical test. Therefore the JAA IR test will not renrew the FAA IR.

J.

[dartagnan]

not sure, but I read somewhere in the FAR that it may be renewed as long your foreign (Non FAA) instructor or examiner is recognized by your authority, in this case the UK CAA; the flight test certificate must be recognized by the FAA.

the CAA flight test has a higher level than just a flight test with a FAA CFII.

[Julian]

I have just checked my FARs and this is what they state

FAR 61.57(d)(2)
The instrument profiecency check must be given by
1) an examiner
2) A person authourised by the US armed forces to conduct instrument flight tests, provided the person being tested is a member of the US armed forces.
3) A company check pilot who is authourised to conduct flight tests under Part 121, 125 or 135 of this chapter or subpart K of Part 91 of this chapter and provided that both the check pilot and poilot being tested are employees of that operator or fractional ownership program manager as appliacble
4) An authourised instructor
5) A person approved by the Adminstrator to conduct instrument practical tests.


No mention of:

somewhere in the FAR that it may be renewed as long your foreign (Non FAA) instructor or examiner is recognized by your authority, in this case the UK CAA; the flight test certificate must be recognized by the FAA.

I would email the FAA and get it in writing as currently I don't think this is the case, you will need an FAA bod to undertake it for you.

J.

[Linda Mollison]

Lasors says:

Conversion Requirements

These arrangements will provide a route to a JAR-FCL IR(A) qualification for the following holders of a current and valid* IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1.

ICAO IR(A) holder to JAR-FCL IR(A)
ICAO IR(H) holder to JAR-FCL IR(A)
JAR-FCL IR(H) holder to JAR-FCL IR(A)

* The holder of an ICAO IR(A)/(H) that is not current and valid will be required to complete the full IR(A) course.

So you do need it to be current and valid before you start your course.

However, it is worth checking with the CAA. I remember one of our students whose FAA IR ran out whilst he was doing his course and this was acceptable to the CAA as it was still current and valid when he started the course.

Linda Mollison

[Cobalt]

What exactly is running out?

If you are just about to run out of the 6 months rule, you have 6 months where you can go up with a safety pilot and do your 6 approaches etc. - which shouldn't be too hard in an IR course. For FAR purposes the instructor should count as safety pilot.

If you are just about to run of the 12 months where you can do that, you have 5 days to go... so you need to cram that into your first lessons... no idea how the FARs treat the time in an FNTP II with a non-US instructor, though...

[Adios]

Did anybody else noticed what just happened here? Dartagnan actually tried to be helpful. That's the second time I've seen it this week. Keep it up big D!

[dartagnan]

1) an examiner
2) A person authourised by the US armed forces to conduct instrument flight tests, provided the person being tested is a member of the US armed forces.
3) A company check pilot who is authourised to conduct flight tests under Part 121, 125 or 135 of this chapter or subpart K of Part 91 of this chapter and provided that both the check pilot and poilot being tested are employees of that operator or fractional ownership program manager as appliacble
4) An authourised instructor
5) A person approved by the Adminstrator to conduct instrument practical tests.

look at number 4), an authorized instructor can be a CAA instructor too.
I know this is in the FAR somewhere, check FAR61.41 (flight training given by a non FAA instructor).They don't say an FAA instructor, they say an AUTHORIZED instructor.

now check that:

Sec. 61.41 Flight training received from flight instructors not certificated by the FAA.

(a) A person may credit flight training toward the requirements of a
pilot certificate or rating issued under this part, if that person
received the training from:
(1) A flight instructor of an Armed Force in a program for training
military pilots of either--
(i) The United States; or
(ii) A foreign contracting State to the Convention on International
Civil Aviation.
(2) A flight instructor who is authorized to give such training by
the licensing authority of a foreign contracting State to the Convention
on International Civil Aviation, and the flight training is given
outside the United States.
(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section
is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

now read the first line, it says" toward the requirements of a
pilot certificate or rating issued under this part".

once the IR student has obtained the requirement toward and instrument renewal, in this case, flying some approaches with a CAA FI, he satisfies the requirement to renew an instrument.
the CAA FI has just to sign and date the "student" loogbook, with the mention "instrument renewal" and the FAA can just accept that, as the student is already instrument certified.



et voila!!!better to ask the FAA, but I bet you will get 36 answers....

[boogie-nicey]

Alas according to the CAA I need to have my FAA IR current before embarking upon my conversion training. Oh dear, well it's my own fault too busy looking at the next stage of training on a day to day basis and forgot about the 'bigger' picture.

Though the lady at the CAA was helpful and somewhat nice too, so I guess that's something at the very least.

[Julian]

better to ask the FAA, but I bet you will get 36 answers....

Surely not

Yep you probably will, but at least you will have it in writing(all 36 of them!) if you get ramp checked.

The reg that may cause debate is the one you found stating

(b) A flight instructor described in paragraph (a) of this section
is only authorized to give endorsements to show training given.

So although a CAA FI may fly with you and sign your logbook to say he has seen you perform the said requirements, he cannot sign off the IPC.


Sorry the heat that Boogie, good luck with the IR.
Who are you using for the conversion?

J.


J.

[boogie-nicey]

Many thanks to everyone for your assistance, much appreciated peeps.

[dartagnan]

the CAA didn't check if my FAA IR was current or not.
I don't remember, but the best is to say you are current.
I don't think the CAA give a damn toss about your 6 approaches...

[Canada Goose]

Well the CAA may/must have changed their ruling on that or the FTO in the UK that I did my MEIR at were misinformed in my favour. I had been running under the assumption that my Canadian MEIR had to be valid before doing the conversion, but the message I was getting form the FTO was; 'No, so long as you've actually has an IR previously it doesn't matter'. So that was it - no full IR course for me but it did take me a bit more than the conversion minimums.

Good luck.
CG.

[boogie-nicey]

Thanks for the help guys, I did get it sorted in the end. Got my multi engine class rating done.

[AlphaMale]

Got my multi engine class rating done

Well done boogie-nicey, I bet that is a weight off your shoulders

[boogie-nicey]

Thank you kindly Sir, unfortunately the economic outlook is so bleak that I sometimes wonder what the point of it all is? Oh well back to the day job