Oxford Aviation & HSBC Question
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Top Draw, Right Hand Side
Age: 38
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NickmanL - Glad to see I'm not the only one that Dartagnan has seriosuly pissed off!
I'm guessing that since the Mr Muskateer doesn't approve of borrowing money to move on in life then he also doesnt approve of borrowing to buy a house for his family. Dartagnan consider this and see how this makes you feel and then think how your comments make people such as myself feel... If YOU lose YOUR medical or YOUR job then who is going to look after YOUR family. Surely you must be ashamed of yourself risking the roof over you family's heads????
Thought not. Although if I may be so bold as to ask...how did you pay for your training? If my thoughts are accurate then you probably didn't face the same problems that us newbee's do so hardly your right to talk to us like we're morons is it!
Just for the record, I'm not proud of my parents putting their house on the line. But after literally years of me trying every which way I could think of to get into the RHS this is what I am left with. I'm lucky in having such amazing parents. They offered, I didn't ask and I do feel terrible about it but all I can do is make sure that I can cover the payments if I don't get a job.
That's me done on this subject now, I'm just getting wound up by the whole thing.
CS
I'm guessing that since the Mr Muskateer doesn't approve of borrowing money to move on in life then he also doesnt approve of borrowing to buy a house for his family. Dartagnan consider this and see how this makes you feel and then think how your comments make people such as myself feel... If YOU lose YOUR medical or YOUR job then who is going to look after YOUR family. Surely you must be ashamed of yourself risking the roof over you family's heads????
Thought not. Although if I may be so bold as to ask...how did you pay for your training? If my thoughts are accurate then you probably didn't face the same problems that us newbee's do so hardly your right to talk to us like we're morons is it!
Just for the record, I'm not proud of my parents putting their house on the line. But after literally years of me trying every which way I could think of to get into the RHS this is what I am left with. I'm lucky in having such amazing parents. They offered, I didn't ask and I do feel terrible about it but all I can do is make sure that I can cover the payments if I don't get a job.
That's me done on this subject now, I'm just getting wound up by the whole thing.
CS
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you all for your posts (excluding Dartagnan).
Me going banrupt was not my fault and was forced into it after my business went through a big legal battle.
I started my business at the age of 15 and having taken one of my clients to court (which I WON) my client went banrupt and never pad me the amount of money owed which forced my business to fold.
Dartagnan...... You may well be a pilot and may well know your stuff but, who on earth gives you the right to slate everything and everyone for their own opinions.
This is the problem with pprune at times, when members are looking for advice o are trying to have a conversation people like you spoil it as you have no life yourself.
I have been wanting to start flying for some time now and having already got my JAR PPL(A), Night, ME, IR, IMC the next step was to join OAT.
My next step is to otain all my credit references and files and try to clear them up as best i can.
Thanks again for all your help and Happy New Year to you all.
Kevin
Me going banrupt was not my fault and was forced into it after my business went through a big legal battle.
I started my business at the age of 15 and having taken one of my clients to court (which I WON) my client went banrupt and never pad me the amount of money owed which forced my business to fold.
Dartagnan...... You may well be a pilot and may well know your stuff but, who on earth gives you the right to slate everything and everyone for their own opinions.
This is the problem with pprune at times, when members are looking for advice o are trying to have a conversation people like you spoil it as you have no life yourself.
I have been wanting to start flying for some time now and having already got my JAR PPL(A), Night, ME, IR, IMC the next step was to join OAT.
My next step is to otain all my credit references and files and try to clear them up as best i can.
Thanks again for all your help and Happy New Year to you all.
Kevin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Top Draw, Right Hand Side
Age: 38
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kevin - Sorry to hear about your bad luck fella. Hope you get everything sorted out soon.
PPRUNE is a great resource so just ignore people like Dogtagnan or whatever he likes to call himself....people like that don't tend to understand the problems that newbee's such as you and I face in trying to achieve our common dream. As you rightly say they have nothing better to do than slate people who get off their arse and give it ago despite things being against them.
Best of luck mate.
Chris
PPRUNE is a great resource so just ignore people like Dogtagnan or whatever he likes to call himself....people like that don't tend to understand the problems that newbee's such as you and I face in trying to achieve our common dream. As you rightly say they have nothing better to do than slate people who get off their arse and give it ago despite things being against them.
Best of luck mate.
Chris
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Age: 38
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is 50k enough?
Dear Friends/Friend,
I will be applying to OAT very soon and have just come across the funding solutions provided by HSBC. MAX 50k apparently. I just want to ask if 50k is the appropriate amount to take u to America, fulfill all the training and come back..if there is a type rating...fund that with the 50k. IS 50k ENOUGH for OAT from zero hours to ATPL. Likewise with CABAIR and some flight schools in Ireland like SIGMAR AVIATION and PTC?
I'd be most grateful for this information
Thank you
Abrar
I will be applying to OAT very soon and have just come across the funding solutions provided by HSBC. MAX 50k apparently. I just want to ask if 50k is the appropriate amount to take u to America, fulfill all the training and come back..if there is a type rating...fund that with the 50k. IS 50k ENOUGH for OAT from zero hours to ATPL. Likewise with CABAIR and some flight schools in Ireland like SIGMAR AVIATION and PTC?
I'd be most grateful for this information
Thank you
Abrar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bournemouth
Age: 35
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
£50K is not enough
Abrar
I am sorry to advise you that £50K will not be enough.
With very careful budgetting and minm hours you may at least in theory get from zero to a JAA fATPL. (I am assuming you want a UK / Eur job at the end ?).
But life ain't like that, at least from a budgetting point of view.
I would allow £60K and that does not get you a job.
You will still have to find an airline that likes the look of your C.V.
Get yourself through an interview and Sim check.
Then comes the big question who will pay for the Type Rating. There is a strong move (RYR and many others) for you to have to pay for it. At the least they will want a bond for 3-5 years. (to my mind that is fair enough).
I think you need to think through a contingency plan that could fund you through these risks.
If you pop out the end with a job at a cost of only £50k
then great. but have a plan that can see funding for say £80K.
This should in you way put you off your dream, just need to have a element of realism.
Good Luck
I am sorry to advise you that £50K will not be enough.
With very careful budgetting and minm hours you may at least in theory get from zero to a JAA fATPL. (I am assuming you want a UK / Eur job at the end ?).
But life ain't like that, at least from a budgetting point of view.
I would allow £60K and that does not get you a job.
You will still have to find an airline that likes the look of your C.V.
Get yourself through an interview and Sim check.
Then comes the big question who will pay for the Type Rating. There is a strong move (RYR and many others) for you to have to pay for it. At the least they will want a bond for 3-5 years. (to my mind that is fair enough).
I think you need to think through a contingency plan that could fund you through these risks.
If you pop out the end with a job at a cost of only £50k
then great. but have a plan that can see funding for say £80K. This should in you way put you off your dream, just need to have a element of realism.
Good Luck
Last edited by HappyFran; 10th Jan 2008 at 14:03. Reason: assuming a UK JAA fATPL
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Wouldn't you like to know!
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Abwrath, if you are planning on doing the integrated ATPL at Oxford 50k is not enough as the course price alone is 68k, plus you need to budget for living expenses for the year so it is safe to say 75k is a more realistic figure. Modular is cheaper but I'm not sure as to the exact prices myself.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few more points. OAT doesn't have a loan officer. JH is the Loan Officer at HSBC. He is full time and has a part time assistant, which is necessary due to the PSLs they do for Oxford Uni graduate students and the higher capacity of OAT vs. Cabair.
The CTC bond is certainly security as far as HSBC are concerned, but it's much different than having to put your own or your parents house up as security. Someone who gets a place on CTC Wings need not have property or a large pile of cash to do the course, though surely some cash will be needed.
Finally, one more fact Dartagnan has totally screwed up is that HSBC requires both life insurance and loss of medical insurance, so nobody who borrows from them for an fATPL bears the risk he so quickly slams everyone for slagging off onto their parents. Feeding the trolls attention makes them live another day, but feeding them facts makes them slither away! Has anybody heard from the little snake in the last 24 hours?
As a father, let me give you my thoughts on securing a loan. I hope to save enough that I could secure a modest loan and write a cheque for a major portion of whatever education my son needs when the time comes. I also hope he can save enough to have a chunk of his own skin and labour in the undertaking. I don't know if this will be for flight training, an Oxbridge education or what. Whether I actually write that cheque will depend very much on how he turns out, but I want to be ready if he becomes the sort of lad who can handle such a risk and responsibility well. The fact that your parents are doing this for you means they like the way you have turned out. Don't be ashamed of this, rather wear it as a badge of honour, with appropriate doses of humility, gratitude, love and respect for them and do them proud in your studies and with your results. I think this is probably what you were trying to express already though.
The CTC bond is certainly security as far as HSBC are concerned, but it's much different than having to put your own or your parents house up as security. Someone who gets a place on CTC Wings need not have property or a large pile of cash to do the course, though surely some cash will be needed.
Finally, one more fact Dartagnan has totally screwed up is that HSBC requires both life insurance and loss of medical insurance, so nobody who borrows from them for an fATPL bears the risk he so quickly slams everyone for slagging off onto their parents. Feeding the trolls attention makes them live another day, but feeding them facts makes them slither away! Has anybody heard from the little snake in the last 24 hours?
As a father, let me give you my thoughts on securing a loan. I hope to save enough that I could secure a modest loan and write a cheque for a major portion of whatever education my son needs when the time comes. I also hope he can save enough to have a chunk of his own skin and labour in the undertaking. I don't know if this will be for flight training, an Oxbridge education or what. Whether I actually write that cheque will depend very much on how he turns out, but I want to be ready if he becomes the sort of lad who can handle such a risk and responsibility well. The fact that your parents are doing this for you means they like the way you have turned out. Don't be ashamed of this, rather wear it as a badge of honour, with appropriate doses of humility, gratitude, love and respect for them and do them proud in your studies and with your results. I think this is probably what you were trying to express already though.
Last edited by Adios; 10th Jan 2008 at 18:51.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Top Draw, Right Hand Side
Age: 38
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adios - Ok apologies, I understood you to mean that this guy was the loan officer at OAT. Didn't realise that another branch dealt with them. I was under the impression it all went through Cranfield. As a side note to all, HSBC Bournemouth have recently done a deal with Cabair so loans will soon be available from that branch aswell!
CS
CS
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In t'sky
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've scanned this thread quickly and it seems some people gets loans for something, while others don't. I used to work for HSBC (please don't take that as a hint to bombard me with PM's about loans, i'm busy on a TR 
) and can tell you this might happen.
While I worked there I wanted a loan that wouldn't normally be approved through the regular channels/limits, but speaking to a branch manager he was able to approve it. In some cases, although HSBC stipulate certain guidelines for lending, if you have a good business plan and seem intelligent then there is no reason you won't get it. If I still worked there though i'd want security on a 55k loan in this market, offering it unsecured to me seems madness, especially with so many guys at OATS going to RYR where they nwill go onto a Brookfield contract!
Horgy
) and can tell you this might happen.While I worked there I wanted a loan that wouldn't normally be approved through the regular channels/limits, but speaking to a branch manager he was able to approve it. In some cases, although HSBC stipulate certain guidelines for lending, if you have a good business plan and seem intelligent then there is no reason you won't get it. If I still worked there though i'd want security on a 55k loan in this market, offering it unsecured to me seems madness, especially with so many guys at OATS going to RYR where they nwill go onto a Brookfield contract!
Horgy
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Top Draw, Right Hand Side
Age: 38
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good post Horgy... there you have it guys, straight from the ex-horses mouth as it were.
I was told categorically by K C @ Cabair only a few months ago that HSBC would not lend a PSL unsecured anymore but that there is still access to unsecured loans through HSBC. However these unsecured loans are only available down the normal channels of a bog standard personal loan with no deferred payments or preferential interest rates on offer.
Not sure if this helps any further but hey ho. Like Horgy says, the quality of your business plan speak volumes to the bank and could well be the difference between them saying yes and no to your requested amount. After all if you clearly demonstrate that you have worked out how much you need, justified why and then, most important of all, shown how you intend to pay them back come hell or high water with security....it's in their interest to lend you the money as they're going to make a killing on it by the time they've sold you the insurances etc that will go with it!
CS
I was told categorically by K C @ Cabair only a few months ago that HSBC would not lend a PSL unsecured anymore but that there is still access to unsecured loans through HSBC. However these unsecured loans are only available down the normal channels of a bog standard personal loan with no deferred payments or preferential interest rates on offer.
Not sure if this helps any further but hey ho. Like Horgy says, the quality of your business plan speak volumes to the bank and could well be the difference between them saying yes and no to your requested amount. After all if you clearly demonstrate that you have worked out how much you need, justified why and then, most important of all, shown how you intend to pay them back come hell or high water with security....it's in their interest to lend you the money as they're going to make a killing on it by the time they've sold you the insurances etc that will go with it!
CS
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris,
I think what you say, no unsecured PSLs, must only apply to Cabair as Oat students can still get them up to £25K. The bank's criteria will be higher, as is the interest rate, but the Oxford branch will consider doing it for those with good employment/earning records.
If nothing else, this thread should show that one needs to choose where they will train and then discover the financing options specific to that FTO.
I think what you say, no unsecured PSLs, must only apply to Cabair as Oat students can still get them up to £25K. The bank's criteria will be higher, as is the interest rate, but the Oxford branch will consider doing it for those with good employment/earning records.
If nothing else, this thread should show that one needs to choose where they will train and then discover the financing options specific to that FTO.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Top Draw, Right Hand Side
Age: 38
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adios - This must be something that HSBC Oxford do exclusively. Im an Accountant at the mo running a finance department for 2 companies with a combined turnover of £15 million. So if my employment record doesnt get me 25k unsecured then obviously not alot more will! 
But as you say, they will give you a much higher interest rate for the privelage and to be honest if 45k out of 70k is secured then it doesnt make alot of difference. My parents said form the start that whilst they dont like the idea of securing against their house, they would prefer the whole amount to be secured if it gets a noticeably better interest rate.
As you say, this is bringing to light some interesting points. Although whilst I don't wish to seem touchy, it does sound like Cabair is being spoken about as second best to OAT here. Adios is slighty biased towards OAT and likewise myself with Cabair.
CS
But as you say, they will give you a much higher interest rate for the privelage and to be honest if 45k out of 70k is secured then it doesnt make alot of difference. My parents said form the start that whilst they dont like the idea of securing against their house, they would prefer the whole amount to be secured if it gets a noticeably better interest rate.
As you say, this is bringing to light some interesting points. Although whilst I don't wish to seem touchy, it does sound like Cabair is being spoken about as second best to OAT here. Adios is slighty biased towards OAT and likewise myself with Cabair.
CS
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris I think you will find anyone who has borrowed +£50k secured on the roof over mum and dads head is going to be somewhat touchy about anybody questioning their choice of training establishment.... it is a perfectly natural reaction when you spend that much money on something that is a "branded product" rather than paying much less for the bog standard version that does the same job.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris,
I am not saying anything at all about my opinion of the relative ranking or quality of either school and certainly not that one is better than the other. I am merely saying that HSBC offers different terms and conditions to students of each. I actually think it is pretty poor on HSBC's part to do so. Both are leading schools that get the job done well, so I should think their students are pretty evenly matched as far as risk to the bank goes. All I can reason out of these differences is that the bespoke PSLs for each school are not based on decisions taken at a centralized level of management, rather more locally.
The difference in interest rates offered by HSBC Oxford is .75% more for an unsecured loan and there are fewer upfront fees for the unsecured loan, so the increased cost due to higher interest is mitigated by about £350 to £400 less in fees. Since they only offer up to £25K unsecured and this loan has a shorter repayment period, the final cost is not as bad as one might think it will be. I do think the secured option is less expensive overall, but those who don't have security to offer and don't need a huge loan might find this option quite tolerable.
Getoffmycloud's comment is a bit judgmental and one could even say touchy. It's also off topic since this thread is not about the modular vs. integrated debate. Funny thing is that the guy who started the thread is training modular and I'm not sure Chris even said what route he is taking. This is simply a discussion of HSBC loans, not one about what various posters plan to do with the proceeds of the loan or why they made those choices. It's a bit rude to make people feel defensive about what is for each wannabe a very personal and difficult decision, especially when they didn't ask for such opinions, so it might be more genial and constructive to limit the thread to the exchange of factual, on topic information.
I am not saying anything at all about my opinion of the relative ranking or quality of either school and certainly not that one is better than the other. I am merely saying that HSBC offers different terms and conditions to students of each. I actually think it is pretty poor on HSBC's part to do so. Both are leading schools that get the job done well, so I should think their students are pretty evenly matched as far as risk to the bank goes. All I can reason out of these differences is that the bespoke PSLs for each school are not based on decisions taken at a centralized level of management, rather more locally.
The difference in interest rates offered by HSBC Oxford is .75% more for an unsecured loan and there are fewer upfront fees for the unsecured loan, so the increased cost due to higher interest is mitigated by about £350 to £400 less in fees. Since they only offer up to £25K unsecured and this loan has a shorter repayment period, the final cost is not as bad as one might think it will be. I do think the secured option is less expensive overall, but those who don't have security to offer and don't need a huge loan might find this option quite tolerable.
Getoffmycloud's comment is a bit judgmental and one could even say touchy. It's also off topic since this thread is not about the modular vs. integrated debate. Funny thing is that the guy who started the thread is training modular and I'm not sure Chris even said what route he is taking. This is simply a discussion of HSBC loans, not one about what various posters plan to do with the proceeds of the loan or why they made those choices. It's a bit rude to make people feel defensive about what is for each wannabe a very personal and difficult decision, especially when they didn't ask for such opinions, so it might be more genial and constructive to limit the thread to the exchange of factual, on topic information.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Top Draw, Right Hand Side
Age: 38
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah I've always got the impression that HSBC deal with the PSL at a local level. An additional 0.75% on unsecured borrowing is very good. I would have jumped at that if I had been offered it. As you say, different stipulations for different FTO's. Looks like OAT students are getting a very good deal out of the bank so good on ya. But I'll be sticking with Cabair none the less.
Personally, whilst I haven't ever really looked into OAT it is without a doubt a top notch FTO. However I have spent 4 years trying to get to where I am now and in those 4 years have really scrutinised Cabair to see if they are the FTO for me. Whilst I dont want to invite a debate on this, I would have to say that in my book Cabair, OAT & CTC are possibly the best all round packages out there....from what Ive seen that is. Im sure there are some great FTO's around but there must be a reason why HSBC only currently back 2 schools. Anyway, case closed on that because thats not what this thread is about.
On that bombshell I'm off to count some sheep after watching the rather thought provolking but slightly bizarre movie that is 'I Am Legend'.
Hapy landings all!
Personally, whilst I haven't ever really looked into OAT it is without a doubt a top notch FTO. However I have spent 4 years trying to get to where I am now and in those 4 years have really scrutinised Cabair to see if they are the FTO for me. Whilst I dont want to invite a debate on this, I would have to say that in my book Cabair, OAT & CTC are possibly the best all round packages out there....from what Ive seen that is. Im sure there are some great FTO's around but there must be a reason why HSBC only currently back 2 schools. Anyway, case closed on that because thats not what this thread is about.
On that bombshell I'm off to count some sheep after watching the rather thought provolking but slightly bizarre movie that is 'I Am Legend'.
Hapy landings all!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris,
It's horses for courses, but there is a fourth one worth mentioning; FTE. HSBC doesn't deal with them simply because they are in Spain, which I think is shortsighted of them, as far as the British FTE students go. On the other hand, from what I have seen, BBVA London actually has better terms on almost every count for FTE Students than HSBC offers to either Oxford or Cabair students, so all it really means is that HSBC loses the opportunity to potentially gain some future high net worth individuals as loyal customers from the beginning of their careers.
Finally, OAT students don't have it better, just different. The secured loan limit is lower and the course price higher, so they need to raise more cash to start than you had to. The same applies when comparing OAT to CTC and FTE as well. The only caveat to this is that the OAT graduate will be better off later in one way if they have a smaller debt load, but the upfront cash requirement prevents many from choosing OAT. It's hard to call one option better than the others, so suffice to say they are just different.
I saw "I am Legend" last week. I'm sure with all the GM and cloning research going on, they intended it to be thought provoking. It was good, but had my wife hanging on to my arm from the first 10 minutes. I thought the spiritual overtones they brought in at the end were interesting for something coming out of Hollywood. Well, enough thread drift!
I wish you the best with your training and eventual job hunt.
It's horses for courses, but there is a fourth one worth mentioning; FTE. HSBC doesn't deal with them simply because they are in Spain, which I think is shortsighted of them, as far as the British FTE students go. On the other hand, from what I have seen, BBVA London actually has better terms on almost every count for FTE Students than HSBC offers to either Oxford or Cabair students, so all it really means is that HSBC loses the opportunity to potentially gain some future high net worth individuals as loyal customers from the beginning of their careers.
Finally, OAT students don't have it better, just different. The secured loan limit is lower and the course price higher, so they need to raise more cash to start than you had to. The same applies when comparing OAT to CTC and FTE as well. The only caveat to this is that the OAT graduate will be better off later in one way if they have a smaller debt load, but the upfront cash requirement prevents many from choosing OAT. It's hard to call one option better than the others, so suffice to say they are just different.
I saw "I am Legend" last week. I'm sure with all the GM and cloning research going on, they intended it to be thought provoking. It was good, but had my wife hanging on to my arm from the first 10 minutes. I thought the spiritual overtones they brought in at the end were interesting for something coming out of Hollywood. Well, enough thread drift!
I wish you the best with your training and eventual job hunt.
