OBA Crash
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Hi,
As an Ex-Student of OBA i must say that i received the very best of training available. When i was sent on my first solo the instructor filled out my Endorsment which said in huge capital bold letters "NO SOLO TOUCH AND GO`s" and i was made very aware by the instructor of this limitation.
I can however understand this limitation, i would not feel comfortable doing a touch and go solo as in my dual touch and go`s the flaps were operated by the Instructor and took a couple of seconds to retract.
In my opinion the Liberty XL2 was a very good training aircraft as mentioned above the liberty does not take as much "Landing Abuse" as the usual pa28 C150 and making less room for errors and better pilots.....
Just my opinion,
W2
As an Ex-Student of OBA i must say that i received the very best of training available. When i was sent on my first solo the instructor filled out my Endorsment which said in huge capital bold letters "NO SOLO TOUCH AND GO`s" and i was made very aware by the instructor of this limitation.
I can however understand this limitation, i would not feel comfortable doing a touch and go solo as in my dual touch and go`s the flaps were operated by the Instructor and took a couple of seconds to retract.
In my opinion the Liberty XL2 was a very good training aircraft as mentioned above the liberty does not take as much "Landing Abuse" as the usual pa28 C150 and making less room for errors and better pilots.....
Just my opinion,
W2
Join Date: Oct 2005
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The phrase, "request the option" is used by Instructors and/or examiners on downwind at OBA-at least when I've been there. Reason for this, is that they were going to train/test you on a particular maneouver, normally an engine out glide approach. It was the their way of getting a clearance from ATC with an option for touch and go, full stop, or go around without making it too obvious to the student. If the student was paying attention is was their way of knowing what to expect in the next few seconds.. :-)
I wouldn't use this phrase when solo, there wasn't a point, as it was always a full stop landing, be it when I was training for a licence, or hour building.
HB
I wouldn't use this phrase when solo, there wasn't a point, as it was always a full stop landing, be it when I was training for a licence, or hour building.
HB
Join Date: Sep 2007
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some raw data
Folks, with all due respect to Adrian and OBA let me give you some raw data to absorb. Registered Liberty XL2 aircraft - 90, accidents since 1.1.2004 (when the aircraft was given its certification) - 5 (the one's we're reviewing isn't on NTSB db just yet). Registered 152s - 3807, accidents since 1.1.2004 (in order to compare to XL2 - pure statistics) - 101. Registered Diamonds DA20 - 397, accidents since 1.1.2004 - 2. Registered 172s - 26662, accidents since 1.1.2004 - 596.This puts XL2 at 5.56% accident rate (of all operational aircraft), 152 at 2.65%, 172 at 2.05%, da20 at 0.504%. All of XL2 accidents have occured at the landing phase and 4 out of 5 involved "improper recovery from bounced landing" according to NTSB.
OBA is a good school, all the CFIs are Riddle alumni, maintenance is fine..
I'd say xl2 is no match for something like da20 for example..
All right, not bad, not bad...(OBA anthem
OBA is a good school, all the CFIs are Riddle alumni, maintenance is fine..
I'd say xl2 is no match for something like da20 for example..
All right, not bad, not bad...(OBA anthem
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Flydog
Yes your statistics are I assume very accurate however they do not tell the real story, I bet there are some registered C152 spamcans sitting in the corner of an airfield unused whereas the XL2 being a new aircraft will and does have a high hourly usage rate (definately at OBA as it is a very busy school). We are comparing apples with pears here, to get a true comparison, we need the total hours flown per a/c type vs no of incidents/accidents, not the total number of planes vs incidents/accidents.
Yes your statistics are I assume very accurate however they do not tell the real story, I bet there are some registered C152 spamcans sitting in the corner of an airfield unused whereas the XL2 being a new aircraft will and does have a high hourly usage rate (definately at OBA as it is a very busy school). We are comparing apples with pears here, to get a true comparison, we need the total hours flown per a/c type vs no of incidents/accidents, not the total number of planes vs incidents/accidents.
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I trained there in june when they were fully uterlising the liberty's. within a week i think 4 had to be sent back to the manufacturer, 3 had to be put into storage untill an engineer from liberty could come and look at them. whilst a friend of mine was on one of his first solo flights the electronics for the flaps failed and this was during a landing. numerous other problems occured such as small holes appearing at the leading edge of the wing where it joins to the fuselage after 1 to 2 weeks of use. overall this aircraft is very poor for training in an accident was waiting to happen since they first bought them.
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Can I please point out that the above post was not written by me. I trained in the XL2 in June and would not have given this account of my experience with them. Could the author please remove this post. Please note this has been reported to pprune.
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I saw with my own eyes the problems OBA had with poor students, the trouble is some people cannot be told they are doing somthing wrong/ take criticism, or in some cases listen to anyone 
.... They then go out of thier way to cause trouble and bring OBA's reputation into disrepute.
I was very worried when I discovered lots of anti-OBA posts just after I had booked with them, but as always I decided to make my own mind up. I am glad I did, I recieved superb training in the air and in the groundschool (hi Echo Mike if you are still around
), and had a fantastic time as well, met lots of top people. Some people think it is a holiday and they can just "bimble" through the course. Sorry, it takes effort and dedication, if you put the work in OBA go out of thier way to help you.
And I spend a good few days sat cursing the winds, as I could not go up solo, but OBA do not control the weather, it was just the way it was. I booked 6 weeks out there to make sure I had enough time to do everything I wanted to, and I came away with my JAA PPL, night rating and 27 Hrs extra flying time, and lots of very good friends, and lots of happy memories.
So, don't listen to the horror stoires, it is a known fact that more people shout about a bad experience than a good one, just go fly!! ( Kens favourite phrase)
.... They then go out of thier way to cause trouble and bring OBA's reputation into disrepute.I was very worried when I discovered lots of anti-OBA posts just after I had booked with them, but as always I decided to make my own mind up. I am glad I did, I recieved superb training in the air and in the groundschool (hi Echo Mike if you are still around
), and had a fantastic time as well, met lots of top people. Some people think it is a holiday and they can just "bimble" through the course. Sorry, it takes effort and dedication, if you put the work in OBA go out of thier way to help you. And I spend a good few days sat cursing the winds, as I could not go up solo, but OBA do not control the weather, it was just the way it was. I booked 6 weeks out there to make sure I had enough time to do everything I wanted to, and I came away with my JAA PPL, night rating and 27 Hrs extra flying time, and lots of very good friends, and lots of happy memories.
So, don't listen to the horror stoires, it is a known fact that more people shout about a bad experience than a good one, just go fly!! ( Kens favourite phrase
)
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I would echo the last input. I trained for a PPL at OBA 2 years ago now. I had no problems with the set up or staff. Sure, back then the planes were old, but they were well maintained and safe to fly. The CFI'S were on the ball and generally very good. Adrian Thompson was polite and seemed very good at what he did.The PPL sylabus was followed correctly and I thoroughly enjoyed my time there.
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OBA've
As Above, AT is a fountain of knowlege and full of decent banter. The Instructors are very good and above all, its great fun to be there!
I'll be living la vida OBA again in feb and wouldn't change owt about it!
Regards
CR
I'll be living la vida OBA again in feb and wouldn't change owt about it!
Regards
CR
Join Date: Mar 2007
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T&G
Hi all
I was reading this thread and feel like I must say a few words adding a breeze of objectivity to the mist of previous posts. I am an old "veteran" student of OBA, done PPL there, had a great time, came back for hour-building (had an amazing time), then came back for IR, FAA CPL, JAA CPL, FAA/JAA Multi, then ME/IR, CFI. CFII. MEI - the whole lot. I am instructing now in Beijing PanAm (China), building my PIC time on DA40/42's and being paid one of the highest CFI salaries in the World.
I must say that OBA is a very flexible school when it comes to flight packages. they can Taylor anything according to what you actually need. I started with JAA ATPL package which I then transferred to FAA CFI. I just spontaneously came up with the request and they re-scheduled my training in one day. I was quite impressed. Also, when I finished my training having a 5-figure sum in credit, they refund me the whole thing within 7 days of my request!
I know some stories about Phoenix East and NAC who would use any legal trick in the book to keep your cash. I personally had a very bad experience with Naples Air Center and will never do any training with them again (perhaps it's not the most objective statement, but it's the fact).
The only thing that OBA is inflexible with is the safety standards. When I was doing my PPL there, I almost have not finished because of some bad weather at the time (it was September). Despite my frustration, it was obvious that the chief CFIs (Ken) had only the best in mind by restricting my VFR X/C in almost IFR conditions. I appreciate this now and would never let any of my students to do the same in China. I'm sure any other FTO would not allow this either.
The touch and go situation is not quite understandable by me personally, since even in a strict 141 school like Beijing PanAm, T&G's and fully authorized for solo students. On the other hand, in our school students solo on their 30th or 40th hour rather then 13-15th like in OBA. Early solo gives students a lot of confidence but the ability is not there, hence it's a lot more dangerous to allow. It should not be surprising that in such robust training environment like OBA and Ormond Beach Municipal airport in general, accidents and incident happen. I think the only person to be blamed for this is the student himself (considering earlier report post by OBA)
Finally it must be said, that since I finished my training in OBA February 07, I could see how far has this school gone: from small place in a dilapidated flight center operating a bunch of beaten-up 1970's C150's to a first-class refurbished facility with brand-new aircrafts, fantastic CFI's (most are Embry-Riddle graduates) and some solid customer service. Thumbs up to Adrian on this one !
I got a friend who is considering JAA PPL in the nearest future and at the moment I can't recommend him an FTO better then OBA.
Tailwinds!
RS
I was reading this thread and feel like I must say a few words adding a breeze of objectivity to the mist of previous posts. I am an old "veteran" student of OBA, done PPL there, had a great time, came back for hour-building (had an amazing time), then came back for IR, FAA CPL, JAA CPL, FAA/JAA Multi, then ME/IR, CFI. CFII. MEI - the whole lot. I am instructing now in Beijing PanAm (China), building my PIC time on DA40/42's and being paid one of the highest CFI salaries in the World.
I must say that OBA is a very flexible school when it comes to flight packages. they can Taylor anything according to what you actually need. I started with JAA ATPL package which I then transferred to FAA CFI. I just spontaneously came up with the request and they re-scheduled my training in one day. I was quite impressed. Also, when I finished my training having a 5-figure sum in credit, they refund me the whole thing within 7 days of my request!
I know some stories about Phoenix East and NAC who would use any legal trick in the book to keep your cash. I personally had a very bad experience with Naples Air Center and will never do any training with them again (perhaps it's not the most objective statement, but it's the fact).
The only thing that OBA is inflexible with is the safety standards. When I was doing my PPL there, I almost have not finished because of some bad weather at the time (it was September). Despite my frustration, it was obvious that the chief CFIs (Ken) had only the best in mind by restricting my VFR X/C in almost IFR conditions. I appreciate this now and would never let any of my students to do the same in China. I'm sure any other FTO would not allow this either.
The touch and go situation is not quite understandable by me personally, since even in a strict 141 school like Beijing PanAm, T&G's and fully authorized for solo students. On the other hand, in our school students solo on their 30th or 40th hour rather then 13-15th like in OBA. Early solo gives students a lot of confidence but the ability is not there, hence it's a lot more dangerous to allow. It should not be surprising that in such robust training environment like OBA and Ormond Beach Municipal airport in general, accidents and incident happen. I think the only person to be blamed for this is the student himself (considering earlier report post by OBA)
Finally it must be said, that since I finished my training in OBA February 07, I could see how far has this school gone: from small place in a dilapidated flight center operating a bunch of beaten-up 1970's C150's to a first-class refurbished facility with brand-new aircrafts, fantastic CFI's (most are Embry-Riddle graduates) and some solid customer service. Thumbs up to Adrian on this one !
I got a friend who is considering JAA PPL in the nearest future and at the moment I can't recommend him an FTO better then OBA.
Tailwinds!
RS
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statistics
Flydog, as I told you on the phone this statistics does not mean much. LX2 is a brand-new aicraft. If you look at the same C-150 crash statistics from 70s, when the a/c appeared first, it had a very high rate of accidents as well. As my examiner (Capt. Raskey, I'm sure some of you have heard) once said, "There are no bad airplanes, just bad pilots" (I know that i will probably crash tomorrow for saying something like this here with my low hours), but I certainly believe it. If the aircraft was tested and certified by several international authorities, it would be safe to assume that the problem is not with the airplane. Sure, it would take time to master it, perhaps years to learn all the tricks, do's and don't but many new training airplanes have been through this stage. I'm not saying that XL2 does not have a character, but so do any other planes (speaking of which, I scared myself ****less yesterday by doing a cross-control Power ON stall in a DA40 with my student: at the end of the stall, the a/c just rolled in a direction of the rudder and got stuck in a 90 degree bank 
No matter how much we were pushing the opposite rudder, the bastard would not budge! Had to continue the roll and recover nose down. Told the othe guys about it - they never tried this before and were thankful for the warning).
At the end of the day, the question you have to ask yourself is, "Do you really want to do your PPL in something pre-historic or would you like to fly on a bleeding edge of technology which is also affortable?
RS
this statistics does not mean much. LX2 is a brand-new aicraft. If you look at the same C-150 crash statistics from 70s, when the a/c appeared first, it had a very high rate of accidents as well. As my examiner (Capt. Raskey, I'm sure some of you have heard) once said, "There are no bad airplanes, just bad pilots" (I know that i will probably crash tomorrow for saying something like this here with my low hours), but I certainly believe it. If the aircraft was tested and certified by several international authorities, it would be safe to assume that the problem is not with the airplane. Sure, it would take time to master it, perhaps years to learn all the tricks, do's and don't but many new training airplanes have been through this stage. I'm not saying that XL2 does not have a character, but so do any other planes (speaking of which, I scared myself ****less yesterday by doing a cross-control Power ON stall in a DA40 with my student: at the end of the stall, the a/c just rolled in a direction of the rudder and got stuck in a 90 degree bank No matter how much we were pushing the opposite rudder, the bastard would not budge! Had to continue the roll and recover nose down. Told the othe guys about it - they never tried this before and were thankful for the warning).At the end of the day, the question you have to ask yourself is, "Do you really want to do your PPL in something pre-historic or would you like to fly on a bleeding edge of technology which is also affortable?
RS
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Minefield - where to start
Hi WWW,
I am new to PPRuNe and have had a little look through some threads regarding OBA (I'm considering studying there). I stumbled across your post on the 'OBA crash' thread and wonder if there is a specific reason that you do not sympathise with the school or owner in this instance?
I'm not asking for you to justify your comments, rather, share any info that could make my decision easier in finding an appropriate school to study at. I have limited resource and will be self funding. I'm aware that there are a lot of sharks in the water, so to speak.
I am not keen on flying for an airline, more a small bush flying career - your direction in this would be much appreciated.
Also, I apologise in advance if I have instigated this in the wrong way.
Kind regards
Be30
I am new to PPRuNe and have had a little look through some threads regarding OBA (I'm considering studying there). I stumbled across your post on the 'OBA crash' thread and wonder if there is a specific reason that you do not sympathise with the school or owner in this instance?
I'm not asking for you to justify your comments, rather, share any info that could make my decision easier in finding an appropriate school to study at. I have limited resource and will be self funding. I'm aware that there are a lot of sharks in the water, so to speak.
I am not keen on flying for an airline, more a small bush flying career - your direction in this would be much appreciated.
Also, I apologise in advance if I have instigated this in the wrong way.
Kind regards
Be30
It would be better for me not to comment on a particular school.
My advice has been and remains thus:
Find a FTO that is preferably withing 50 miles of home that can do PPL CPL and IR.
In many cases they will have been trading for 10 years and have instructors who are career.
Rock up and announce your intention of going the whole way there and then.
Specify you want a single or as close as possible single instructor from day one PPL to IR 1170A.
This will be more expensive than going to Florida and then hour building or converting or doing blah blah blah.
It is however the cheapest least stress way of getting the most training bang for your buck.
Cheers
WWW
My advice has been and remains thus:
Find a FTO that is preferably withing 50 miles of home that can do PPL CPL and IR.
In many cases they will have been trading for 10 years and have instructors who are career.
Rock up and announce your intention of going the whole way there and then.
Specify you want a single or as close as possible single instructor from day one PPL to IR 1170A.
This will be more expensive than going to Florida and then hour building or converting or doing blah blah blah.
It is however the cheapest least stress way of getting the most training bang for your buck.
Cheers
WWW
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Bald Eagle,
I've been out here for a couple of weeks now at OBA doing my MEP CPL and have been really impressed with them.
I can highly recommend them, please post me if you have any questions.
Regards Mark.
I've been out here for a couple of weeks now at OBA doing my MEP CPL and have been really impressed with them.
I can highly recommend them, please post me if you have any questions.
Regards Mark.
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OBA Crash.
Chaps,
Thanks for this! WWW I appreciate your position and thank you for yoor advice - it makes sense that a consistent teaching approach from end to end of the training would be beneficial - food for thought!
Mark, where I think that www has a valid point, I am still interested in hearing about this FTO, the facilites themselves and the accommodation etc. It would be good to catch up with you on completion of your training to discuss. PM me if you can and I will respond accordingly. Good luck until then and thank you once again.
Be30
Thanks for this! WWW I appreciate your position and thank you for yoor advice - it makes sense that a consistent teaching approach from end to end of the training would be beneficial - food for thought!
Mark, where I think that www has a valid point, I am still interested in hearing about this FTO, the facilites themselves and the accommodation etc. It would be good to catch up with you on completion of your training to discuss. PM me if you can and I will respond accordingly. Good luck until then and thank you once again.
Be30
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I love flying the XL2
I did a JAA PPL, Night & Hour Build in the XL2 with OBA in June/July this year. My personal experience was one of a professional and friendly school with high standards. My advice to any career pilot is that what you get out of a flying school depends on what you are willing to put in. Yes learning to land the XL2 with grace does take perciverance and many hours of practice with an instructor. I remember being so frustrated that my instructor wouldn't release me to solo but thank heavens for his determination as eventually I became proficient at making consistantly safe landings and he let me go.
Wannabe pilots come in all shapes and sizes, some are hard working, safe and professional people and others are just dangerous.
With regards to the accident it appears the cause was loss off control whilst performing a prohibited manouvre with high winds being a contributary factor. I hope the student continues to recover and will not be put off flying. Perhaps he has learned the hardest way that there are reasons why aviation has rules. I disagree that touch and goes are suitible for student pilots. The t & g requires a high work load - power control, flaps, and of course 'flying' the plane - which can overload even the most experienced of pilots. I think the recent events in Phuket illustrate this well as early investigations suggest the pilot attempted a go-around in high winds (ring any bells?) and clearly failed.
My experience of OBA was excellent and I will be returning there next year to continue my flight training.
Wannabe pilots come in all shapes and sizes, some are hard working, safe and professional people and others are just dangerous.
With regards to the accident it appears the cause was loss off control whilst performing a prohibited manouvre with high winds being a contributary factor. I hope the student continues to recover and will not be put off flying. Perhaps he has learned the hardest way that there are reasons why aviation has rules. I disagree that touch and goes are suitible for student pilots. The t & g requires a high work load - power control, flaps, and of course 'flying' the plane - which can overload even the most experienced of pilots. I think the recent events in Phuket illustrate this well as early investigations suggest the pilot attempted a go-around in high winds (ring any bells?) and clearly failed.
My experience of OBA was excellent and I will be returning there next year to continue my flight training.