OBA Crash
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A bit of a weird post CR, I am not sure what you are trying to get across here.
A student goes to school A, pays school A for training, flies aircraft registered to school A, receives instruction by Instructors employed by school A, and is unfortunate enough to crash a school aircraft at the home airport of school A.
No matter how you look at it, the school has everything to do with it.
NTSB and FAA investigations, insurance claims, media attention, us writing about it on a forum, everything.
As to the exact cause of the crash, that is a different story, that needs to be determined by people (FAA/NTSB) more knowledgeable then you and me.
I assume that is what you were trying to say.
I disagree, because of the media, we now about the event, the location and the status of the pilot involved.
Not all media outlets have aviation experts standing by. As a result the way of reporting is often somewhat overly dramatic; eg " plummeted to earth", "great ball of fire" .
But without them we would not know anything.
They should like any other professional training organization. That is what you should expect as a student, that is your right as a customer. If you don't see this happening, you pack up and leave.
Unfortunately for a lot of us, as primary students, we don't know any better and assume the way a particular school is run is the industry standard.
The misguided notion that anywhere else the same is going on so why change.
So why is this different?
So this is a plane you can only land if you are a "real" pilot? What?
What are you suggesting or implying here? The Liberty XL is not a training aircraft? It should only be flown by real pilots like yourself?
Here's a no-brainer; every airplane is a pig to land by student pilots, that's why they are students. Learning how to land is the hardest part of flight training, regardless of aircraft type.
We all know the joke: ..." I'll teach you how to fly for $50, I'll teach you how to land for $4,950...."
Regardless of aircraft type, statistically most incidents and accidents occur during take-off and landing phases of flight.
I think you just did. How could it have been avoided? If you are implying some sort of error or blame you have just contradicted your entire post.
It has NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING to do with the school
No matter how you look at it, the school has everything to do with it.
NTSB and FAA investigations, insurance claims, media attention, us writing about it on a forum, everything.
As to the exact cause of the crash, that is a different story, that needs to be determined by people (FAA/NTSB) more knowledgeable then you and me.
I assume that is what you were trying to say.
The media cannot be relied on as a source of information regarding the matter
Not all media outlets have aviation experts standing by. As a result the way of reporting is often somewhat overly dramatic; eg " plummeted to earth", "great ball of fire" .
But without them we would not know anything.
OBA run a bloody safe shop
Unfortunately for a lot of us, as primary students, we don't know any better and assume the way a particular school is run is the industry standard.
The misguided notion that anywhere else the same is going on so why change.
This one, however is in one of OBA's libertys
a pig to land as a student pilot, but totally 'land-able' no less.
What are you suggesting or implying here? The Liberty XL is not a training aircraft? It should only be flown by real pilots like yourself?
Here's a no-brainer; every airplane is a pig to land by student pilots, that's why they are students. Learning how to land is the hardest part of flight training, regardless of aircraft type.
We all know the joke: ..." I'll teach you how to fly for $50, I'll teach you how to land for $4,950...."
Regardless of aircraft type, statistically most incidents and accidents occur during take-off and landing phases of flight.
this is a ****-happens situation, and one that could have been avoided. No more speculation,
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"Your previous post insinuates to a degree that my comments regarding the liberty are unfounded and made without experience. So understand when i say, it is reknown yes reknown by almost all of the boys and girls i know that fly it, as being a tricky little lady to land, more so than other trainers. Castoring nose wheel, finger brakes, spring gear etc, so compared to the 28's and cessnas, it is, in fact a more difficult craft to fly, no arguement."
If this is the case (and I don't doubt for one minute it's not) then is it wise to have an aircraft as a primary trainer on your fleet, which is known to a be a pig a to land for low houred students? It's not the first OBA liberty to be severely damaged on landing.
If this is the case (and I don't doubt for one minute it's not) then is it wise to have an aircraft as a primary trainer on your fleet, which is known to a be a pig a to land for low houred students? It's not the first OBA liberty to be severely damaged on landing.
Fly Conventional Gear
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OBA run a bloody safe shop
I hope the pilot gets well soon.
Perhaps the reason that the Liberty hasn't (yet?) 'caught on in Europe' is that it only received European certification in June of this year?
If it teaches pilots to fly at the correct approach speed and to land properly, then bring it on!
If it teaches pilots to fly at the correct approach speed and to land properly, then bring it on!
Fly Conventional Gear
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Perhaps the reason that the Liberty hasn't (yet?) 'caught on in Europe' is that it only received European certification in June of this year?
If it teaches pilots to fly at the correct approach speed and to land properly, then bring it on!
Because there aren't enough left!
Slam it on at any-old-speed landings are regrettably all too common in things like the PA28 which will tolerate an enormous amount of landing abuse.
Slam it on at any-old-speed landings are regrettably all too common in things like the PA28 which will tolerate an enormous amount of landing abuse.
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A few of you guys gota get back in your box and wind your neck in, jabi especially you-hate people who think they know it all!
I convinced a good mate of mine to do some hour building with OBA recently, and he arrived back in UK 2 days after the crash, to find out it was his room mate who had crashed.
The pilot is really not in a good way, and I think a few of you have lost sight of the real promlem. Stop banging on about the school, and say a prayer for John Hull and his family.
HB
I convinced a good mate of mine to do some hour building with OBA recently, and he arrived back in UK 2 days after the crash, to find out it was his room mate who had crashed.
The pilot is really not in a good way, and I think a few of you have lost sight of the real promlem. Stop banging on about the school, and say a prayer for John Hull and his family.
HB
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"The pilot is really not in a good way, and I think a few of you have lost sight of the real problem"
So what is the real problem then HB? This thread is not about the pilot - although everyone wishes him well, obviously - it is discussing the recent safety issues of some flight schools. There is obviously a reason why this guy is the state he is in, and I think people are entitled to discuss it....
Suggest you take some of your own advice and wind your own neck in. If you don't like the way a thread is going, you can always stop reading it
So what is the real problem then HB? This thread is not about the pilot - although everyone wishes him well, obviously - it is discussing the recent safety issues of some flight schools. There is obviously a reason why this guy is the state he is in, and I think people are entitled to discuss it....
Suggest you take some of your own advice and wind your own neck in. If you don't like the way a thread is going, you can always stop reading it
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Oh dear another another pointless comment.
No one knows what happened etc, so any comments or thoughts about the school are irrelavent without the facts. So as the thread is entitled "OBA Crash" I would say this thread should be about the pilot.
Makes me laugh, how threads regarding this school always go on for soooo long. I've been there 3 times, the place is always busy with students, probably due to the amount of publicity it gets from these forums.
With regards to %'s of incidents at this school compared to the amount hours flown, I would bet they are no different from most other schools.
Wannabe there, do me a favour, dont comment unless you have something constructive to say-based on a fact!
No one knows what happened etc, so any comments or thoughts about the school are irrelavent without the facts. So as the thread is entitled "OBA Crash" I would say this thread should be about the pilot.
Makes me laugh, how threads regarding this school always go on for soooo long. I've been there 3 times, the place is always busy with students, probably due to the amount of publicity it gets from these forums.
With regards to %'s of incidents at this school compared to the amount hours flown, I would bet they are no different from most other schools.
Wannabe there, do me a favour, dont comment unless you have something constructive to say-based on a fact!
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If you want to discuss the health of the pilot only, then please do so, but don't force it on everyone else. Who do you think you are telling people what they should be talking about?!
And with regards to the facts, look them up yourself and come to your own conclusions
And with regards to the facts, look them up yourself and come to your own conclusions
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The XL2 has had a few problems. I know that at OBA an XL2 started to catch fire about a year or so ago, one pilot crashed another and now this. I have to say Ive heard they are tricky to land.
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Liberty and OBA
Is this problem with the Liberty peculiar with OBA? I would say NO.
This accident is just like any other accident in the aviation environment. Nothing special about it.
I'm at Ormond in 3 weeks and I would go to extend my best wishes to the the pilot.
WP
This accident is just like any other accident in the aviation environment. Nothing special about it.
I'm at Ormond in 3 weeks and I would go to extend my best wishes to the the pilot.
WP
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Yep thats exactly it.
The unfortunate reality is from reading below, he more then likely forgot to retract the flaps- the question is, would he have done this anyway regardless of where he was trained.
You can all bang on about OBA etc, but try and prove that this wouldn't have happened anyway! None of us know what the standard of training he received from that particular instructor, so all of the assumptions and "chinese whispers!" you hear from your brothers mates cousin count for jack!
HB
************************************************************ *******************
** Report created 8/23/2007 Record 2 **
************************************************************ ********************
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 550XL Make/Model: XL2 Description: LIBERTY XL-2
Date: 08/19/2007 Time: 1612
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed
LOCATION
City: ORMOND BEACH State: FL Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON ATTEMPTED GO AROUND, STALLED AND CRASHED ONTO THE AIRPORT,
ORMOND BEACH, FL
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: 1
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: WIND 06010 10SM SCT027 SCT035 33/26 A3014
OTHER DATA
Activity: Training Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: ORLANDO, FL (SO15) Entry date:
The unfortunate reality is from reading below, he more then likely forgot to retract the flaps- the question is, would he have done this anyway regardless of where he was trained.
You can all bang on about OBA etc, but try and prove that this wouldn't have happened anyway! None of us know what the standard of training he received from that particular instructor, so all of the assumptions and "chinese whispers!" you hear from your brothers mates cousin count for jack!
HB
************************************************************ *******************
** Report created 8/23/2007 Record 2 **
************************************************************ ********************
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 550XL Make/Model: XL2 Description: LIBERTY XL-2
Date: 08/19/2007 Time: 1612
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed
LOCATION
City: ORMOND BEACH State: FL Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT ON ATTEMPTED GO AROUND, STALLED AND CRASHED ONTO THE AIRPORT,
ORMOND BEACH, FL
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk: 1
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: WIND 06010 10SM SCT027 SCT035 33/26 A3014
OTHER DATA
Activity: Training Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: ORLANDO, FL (SO15) Entry date:
Please do all carry on posting on this thread.
Please do all be under no illusion that it is being closely monitored, IP addresses stored, account details cross referenced and logs recorded.
Any ess h one tee stirring by rival schools/instructors/owners/students/mittys is at risk of a libel case so keep it legally defensible.
I've sent hundreds on their first solo. The one who crashed on landing was one of the better ones. Actually it was his second solo - as such a more risky exercise. I've sent plenty of 16 year olds off in 57ft wingspan motorgliders with castoring tailwheels which sure as hell are more challenging than the Libertys in question...
So I think we should quit blaming the aircraft.
Blaming anything ahead of the official report is a waste of time. You may as all learn that now in your career rather than later.
WWW
Please do all be under no illusion that it is being closely monitored, IP addresses stored, account details cross referenced and logs recorded.
Any ess h one tee stirring by rival schools/instructors/owners/students/mittys is at risk of a libel case so keep it legally defensible.
I've sent hundreds on their first solo. The one who crashed on landing was one of the better ones. Actually it was his second solo - as such a more risky exercise. I've sent plenty of 16 year olds off in 57ft wingspan motorgliders with castoring tailwheels which sure as hell are more challenging than the Libertys in question...
So I think we should quit blaming the aircraft.
Blaming anything ahead of the official report is a waste of time. You may as all learn that now in your career rather than later.
WWW
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So I think we should quit blaming the aircraft.
NTSB database, since July of 2006 there have been 5 accidents involving the Liberty not including the last one ( hasn't made it to the database yet.)
All of them landing:
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...02X01073&key=1
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...09X01136&key=1
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...14X01786&key=1
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...14X00288&key=1
This one shouldn't really count, but still in landing phase of flight.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...20X01810&key=1
Same period for the Cessna 152, 38 accidents.
Number of aircraft on the US civil registry:
Liberty XL 89
Cessna 152 3800
Which means over the period of a year 6/89.....that's 1:15
vs 38/3800 that's 1:100.
Call it fuzzy math, but there is something going on out there.
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Its a long time since I have posted about OBA and it is 5 years since I flew there so I will limit my response to comment on what I have read here. Some people do not like this schools management style and it does not matter what information is supplied, they will take ANY opportunity to slag AT off. Accidents happen in the training world, fact. Students can be unpredictable WHEREVER you go, no school is exempt. Feel safe in the knowledge that if this aircraft has inherent problems and is the cause of accidents, the country to identify this and sue sue sue will be the USA. I am tempted to believe that a lack of lawsuits so far, speaks for itself.
As stated years ago, I was a squadron commander of a RAF Central Flying School Unit when I visited OBA. They taught with hard rules, but they did what was promised on the 'tin'.
As stated years ago, I was a squadron commander of a RAF Central Flying School Unit when I visited OBA. They taught with hard rules, but they did what was promised on the 'tin'.
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You'd do the CPL on the warrior and 5 hours complex on their Arrow. Dont think they'd use the liberty.
Something people perhaps haven't mentioned, is that when people say the Liberty is twitchy, hard to land with its sensitive controls etc etc, they are saying that compared to other aircraft they have flown. I would say a good majority of OBA students have not flown before, and the XL2 may be their first aircraft to fly. Therefore to them it feels "normal" as they are used to nothing else.....just a thought
HB
Something people perhaps haven't mentioned, is that when people say the Liberty is twitchy, hard to land with its sensitive controls etc etc, they are saying that compared to other aircraft they have flown. I would say a good majority of OBA students have not flown before, and the XL2 may be their first aircraft to fly. Therefore to them it feels "normal" as they are used to nothing else.....just a thought
HB