Pilot Training Petition
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Pilot Training Petition
Hi chaps,
I don't know how effective these things are, and using the search nothing sprang up as this obviously having been posted here before but I don't suppose it can do any harm.
I came across this e-petition for support for pilot training, and whilst you may have differing views some of you may like to sign it.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Pilot-tra...a9433f7.120509
As I say, if you don't agree you don't have to add your name, and if you do then it's a 2 minute job.
Regards,
A38
I don't know how effective these things are, and using the search nothing sprang up as this obviously having been posted here before but I don't suppose it can do any harm.
I came across this e-petition for support for pilot training, and whilst you may have differing views some of you may like to sign it.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Pilot-tra...a9433f7.120509
As I say, if you don't agree you don't have to add your name, and if you do then it's a 2 minute job.
Regards,
A38
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Being an economics graduate, I would say that government support would be wrong and unnecessary. There is a big difference between pilots and doctors.
There are more than enough trainee pilots coming through that meet the current demands of the airline industry. Also, airlines are in the private sector, unlike the NHS.
I would not support any government that intervened like this in private sector employment markets.
There are more than enough trainee pilots coming through that meet the current demands of the airline industry. Also, airlines are in the private sector, unlike the NHS.
I would not support any government that intervened like this in private sector employment markets.
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It is for the industry to support trainee pilots, not government. Government should never be involved in underwriting private industry. If you want to petition anyone, petition British Airways, Monarch, Thomsonfly, BMI, easyJet, Jet2, and all the others who pay nothing towards the training of new entrants to this industry, but expect them to shell out the dosh themselves.
Scroggs
Scroggs
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It's not my petition, I'm just passing on the fact that the petition exists. Personally, I feel that this requires re-wording and targeting from a different angle.
I strongly agree with you in many respects that it is an industry issue. However, I also feel that student pilots, particularly those undertaking full-time courses, should be eligible for the same automatic student loan that any Tom/Dick/Harry can claim for their course in Art History/Media Studies/American Studies etc.
I'm sure that looking at it from an economics point of view (though I count myself as no expert) loans to at least cover the cost of living whilst undertaking the course, resulting in professionally qualified individuals who statistically, I'm sure, contribute far more to the society than many other courses which are supported unquestioningly.
Lest we forget, how much of the taxpayers' money goes missing when a graduate of a Mickey Mouse course remains unemployed and therefore not obliged to pay back the (now extremely substantial) loan? Whilst still, of course, claiming for their cost of living along the way.
Scroggs - couldn't agree more in what you're saying about petitioning the airlines. Unfortunately, whilst more of us are falling in love with the dream every day, those jokers are rubbing their hands together and can see us coming from a long way off. I guess that's business, and that's life.
I strongly agree with you in many respects that it is an industry issue. However, I also feel that student pilots, particularly those undertaking full-time courses, should be eligible for the same automatic student loan that any Tom/Dick/Harry can claim for their course in Art History/Media Studies/American Studies etc.
I'm sure that looking at it from an economics point of view (though I count myself as no expert) loans to at least cover the cost of living whilst undertaking the course, resulting in professionally qualified individuals who statistically, I'm sure, contribute far more to the society than many other courses which are supported unquestioningly.
Lest we forget, how much of the taxpayers' money goes missing when a graduate of a Mickey Mouse course remains unemployed and therefore not obliged to pay back the (now extremely substantial) loan? Whilst still, of course, claiming for their cost of living along the way.
Scroggs - couldn't agree more in what you're saying about petitioning the airlines. Unfortunately, whilst more of us are falling in love with the dream every day, those jokers are rubbing their hands together and can see us coming from a long way off. I guess that's business, and that's life.
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A few silly statements on this subject in this thread. 
Why should artisits, accountants, lawyers and any other number of courses be subsidised by the Government, yet flight training is not ?. Most of the courses are geared towards training for the private sector.
I'll also bet that most people that go through Uni and thus enjoy the subsidised education and training they receive don't end up working for the state, most will end up in the private sector so why should Pilots be any different ?.
I'll hazard a guess that there are also significant numbers who don't even end up taking jobs in the field that they did their courses in which would be unlikely for a pilot to do.
Why should artisits, accountants, lawyers and any other number of courses be subsidised by the Government, yet flight training is not ?. Most of the courses are geared towards training for the private sector.
I'll also bet that most people that go through Uni and thus enjoy the subsidised education and training they receive don't end up working for the state, most will end up in the private sector so why should Pilots be any different ?.
I'll hazard a guess that there are also significant numbers who don't even end up taking jobs in the field that they did their courses in which would be unlikely for a pilot to do.
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Why should artisits, accountants, lawyers and any other number of courses be subsidised by the Government, yet flight training is not ?.
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fATPL= BSc or should anyway.
The only way to make flight training as accessible as a university education is to allow the use of student loans for flight training.
Give the end product of all this training we do the same status as a BSc or BEng. After all the training we do to get qualified to the level that airlines will look at our CV's surely it is on par with someone doing a degree, even if only one of the stupid ones.
Give the end product of all this training we do the same status as a BSc or BEng. After all the training we do to get qualified to the level that airlines will look at our CV's surely it is on par with someone doing a degree, even if only one of the stupid ones.
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There is over supply of Geography Teachers, Fine Arts graduates, Law Students etc etc etc etc so the supply and demand argument is a non-starter!!
Sadly a total change of policy on commercial pilot training is unlikely to happen overnight but, removal of VAT on training is a must!! There is no argument for this absurd tax on career training. If there is a petition required for anything, it has to be for the removal of this ridiculous tax on legitimate education
Sadly a total change of policy on commercial pilot training is unlikely to happen overnight but, removal of VAT on training is a must!! There is no argument for this absurd tax on career training. If there is a petition required for anything, it has to be for the removal of this ridiculous tax on legitimate education
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clear prop!!! - bang on. Simply removing VAT from flight training would knock 17.5% off frozen ATPL costs - we're not talking pennies!
In a number of JAA countries (for instance Spain, Greece and Denmark), flight training (even type ratings) is NOT subject to VAT. After all, if uni students do not have to fork out VAT, why do student pilots? Ah well, because... you do NOT have student status while flight training!
In a number of JAA countries (for instance Spain, Greece and Denmark), flight training (even type ratings) is NOT subject to VAT. After all, if uni students do not have to fork out VAT, why do student pilots? Ah well, because... you do NOT have student status while flight training!
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VAT on professional training is an iniquity, and should be removed in all cases. However, there is no case whatsoever for government to subsidise speculative training in a field which is over-subscribed several times over. As for equivalency between a degree and an ATPL, not a chance!
Scroggs
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As for equivalency between a degree and an ATPL, not a chance!
Meanwhile, the same can surely not be said for pilot training, which at least requires effort and commitment, and the above factors would undoubtedly not lead to success.
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I am not as much in favour of degree status for the fATPL as too many people would take the p**s as happened with the NVQ, possably something like an HND. But why not for the full unfrozen ATPL.
A lot of work is needed to get to the point where you get to upgrade from the CPL, let alone what is needed to get the CPL. And as Airbus38 says anyone can get a 2:2, 2:1 just by doing the minimum of work.
I know from personal experience it has taken lots of hard work and commitment to get to where i am now, just about to start my A320 rating.
Give the the hard work some recognition.
A lot of work is needed to get to the point where you get to upgrade from the CPL, let alone what is needed to get the CPL. And as Airbus38 says anyone can get a 2:2, 2:1 just by doing the minimum of work.
I know from personal experience it has taken lots of hard work and commitment to get to where i am now, just about to start my A320 rating.
Give the the hard work some recognition.
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A lot of work is needed to get to the point where you get to upgrade from the CPL, let alone what is needed to get the CPL. And as Airbus38 says anyone can get a 2:2, 2:1 just by doing the minimum of work.
Quality is the hallmark of a worthwhile degree. The ATPL exams fail that criterion fairly spectacularly.
Scroggs
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clear prop!!! - bang on. Simply removing VAT from flight training would knock 17.5% off frozen ATPL costs - we're not talking pennies!
No it won't...it will knock 14.89% off....
No it won't...it will knock 14.89% off....
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As always scroggs speaks the 'best of all truths'. Government should never be allowed to underwrite nor support private initiatives such as pilot training. The fact that pilot training is expensive serves a good initial hurdle to weed out those who really want to do it and not those looking for something to do in life. Even with poor parents if you really want it enough you can research, plan and then finally one day go out there and get it done.
Public finances shouldn't support the workplace nor it's employees that's a matter between the individual and employer. I think it's grossly naive to think that this silly (yes I said silly) petition could ever be taken seriously.
Public finances shouldn't support the workplace nor it's employees that's a matter between the individual and employer. I think it's grossly naive to think that this silly (yes I said silly) petition could ever be taken seriously.
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The fact that pilot training is expensive serves a good initial hurdle to weed out those who really want to do it and not those looking for something to do in life.
It just finds those who have enough money to do it and procludes those who don't.
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OK, then what about the ATPL as a whole?? Rather than just the exams?
After several (say, 10) years in the job, however, it might be reasonable to suggest that an airline pilot might qualify for the grant of a degree-equivalent recognition of experience. In fact, the Open University (and others) do indeed give credit for such experience - but not enough to avoid doing some work, unfortunately!
The ATPL and a degree are different animals; both worthwhile in different ways, but not directly comparable.
Scroggs