CPL/ATPL qualifying hours requirements

[despegue]

As an FO, I always put my hours under "co-pilot" in my JAA logbook, and have done so the last 2 years.
Should I have put my sectors under "pilot-in-command" then?? This doesn't sound right?!
Maybe it's a British thing with that P1 and P2 rule.
I always thought that PICUS should only be used in command line-training.

[PGA]

Thanks Strepsils, I`m there now! Must have something to do with the time of the day...

[BillieBob]

SPIC is a red herring - it may only be claimed as part of an integrated course of training. Think about it - if you are a member of the crew of a multi-pilot aeroplane you are hardly a student any more, so how can you claim 'student pilot in command' time?

Under JAR-FCL, time spent in the right hand seat of a multi-pilot aeroplane should be recorded as PICUS if acting as pilot in command under supervision, in which case each entry so recorded should be countersigned by the supervising PIC. Otherwise, such flights should be recorded as co-pilot (or P2 if not using a JAR-compliant logbook).

All properly recorded PIC, SPIC and PICUS flights may be counted as PIC towards the requirements for licence issue.

[despegue]

How can anyone expect us to fill-in our logbooks immediately after the flight (to be able to get the signature of the PIC) when it is recommended to leave your logbook at home...?!?! This isn't logical.
I will just keep writing my hours as co-pilot. Best option in my opinion as I have already more than 100h PIC.

[Strepsils]

despegue - in which case you're in for a shock when you apply for your ATPL, you need 150hours PIC multi-crew (PICUS).

Log all your sectors as P1, remark them as PICUS, then when it's time to apply for your ATPL get your Fleet manager/chief pilot or equivalent to either write a letter or countersign the last completed page of your logbook stating the hours are accurate.

Please, everyone, go to www.caa.co.uk and download LASORS! It's free and it explains everything!

[AlternativeProcedure]

Jeppesen Pilot Logbook

Hi Folks,
Can someone help me out with this one, I have a JAR Complaint "Jeppesen Pilot Logbook", black long book, some of you may even have it. I've just been checked out on a twin otter and would need to be able to log P1US when ever I'm the PF. But there doesn't seem to be a column that allows me to specify something like that.
The only columns I have are "Name of PIC", "Pilot In Command" Time, "Co-Pilot" Time , "Dual" Time and "instructor" time. The PIC is always in charge even in supervisory role, so how do I specify P1US? Or do I put his/her name, and log the time as PIC under the column "Pilot In Command" instead of "Co-Pilot" Time?
AP

[despegue]

Exactly my problem too!
There is no provision for this in standard JAR logbooks I think.
Also, none of my collegues write down their PF as PIC.
Seems that there is still lots of confusion around JAR-Land...

Strepsils, Thanks for the advice. I will do so and ask advice to my local CAA.

[Strepsils]

AlternativeProcedure -

do I put his/her name, and log the time as PIC under the column "Pilot In Command" instead of "Co-Pilot" Time?

Yes!

Let me clear this up :

When you fly and it's your sector, you log P1, or PIC or whatever it says in your book. In the remarks column, you write PICUS. When it's the other guys sector you log P2.

[PD210]

JAR-FCL CPL(A) requirements (Merged with "CPL Requirements")

JAR-FCL CPL(A)

I am doing my CPL in May and I want to make sure that I have all the pre-requisites to start the course. Having consulted the LASORS guide I think I am right in the following:

(coming from a modular background)
To start the CPL course I will need 150hrs total total time 'as a pilot'. As far as I can see, it does not state a certain amount of hours as P1.

Upon completion of the course/to undertake a CPL Skills Test:
100hrs P1
this to include:
20hrs cross-country as P1
10hrs instrument dual instruction
5hrs night flying

And before undertaking the CPL Skill Test, a pass in all 14 ATPL ground examinations is required.

Finally, to apply for a CPL a total of 200hrs of flight time is required. I suspect for many people, an element of hour building is required from perhaps 175hrs to achieve this total. In this scenario does one simply delay sending in the appropriate paperwork to the CAA until the 200hrs is achieved?

If anyone wants to verify the above info, it'd be appreciated and if anyone wants to add any useful info...

PD210

[LFS]

All correct as long as you use a complex single aircraft, if you intend to combine the course with a M/E rating you will need 70 hours P1. There is no problem with passing the test then delaying applying until you have got the 200hrs TT and 100 hrs P1. You have 12 months from date of test to apply for a CPL.

[Dude~]

Not all correct:

You don't need all 14 ATPL exams for the CPL, just the CPL exams of whihc there are less than 14.

Also, don't forget the 300nm cross country with 2 away stops.

Re the 200 hrs total required for issue - many people will carry on with the MEP rating and the IR which should just about give them another 25 hrs flying and so sufficient for CPL issue, but beware, some people I know have not had sufficient P1 hours for CPL-IR issue and have had their application returned by the CAA. It seems people have often logged P1u/s for club checkouts etc and the CAA tend to change them to P.u/t which is correct. Therefore they run short on P1 hours....

[Keygrip]

You do NOT require 100 hours P1 either to start the course, by the end of the course, or before taking the CPL skill test. You only need the 100 hours P1 by the time of application for the licence.

The 25hour CPL course (all single engine) is all dual, and will include the 10 hours instrument time you mention.

As said before, to do the test in a multi engine aircraft - the course will extend to 28 hours and will include a MINIMUM of 8 hours multi engine flying (but consider doing more - Oxford (USA), for example, currently do 14 hours PA28 and 14 hours Seneca. Could even consider 14 hours Arrow and 14 hours Multi - no reason why not.)

You cannot take the flight test unless you have completed the training for the issue of a night qualification (whether issued or not, doesn't matter), nor can you take a UK CPL skill test unless you have passed all the training and testing for the issue of a UK Radio Telephony Operators Licence.

BTW - avoid any school that will teach you as much as they can in 25 hours and put you forward for test. Find one that will take as many hours as it takes to teach you what you need to know.

Whilst talking of what you need to know - there's much more to the CPL than a skill test at the end of a course.

If you ignore the last two paragraphs don't start getting sulky about never being able to get an airline job because you didn't get a full pass, first time.

[clarityinthemurk]

Pray tell, do enlighten the masses, tell us those things being examined other than the items on the CAA CPL skill-test checklist. All those lovely considerations such as race, creed, sex, perhaps. Special powers of crystal ball gazing giving you deep insight, much greater than those highly qualified medical people who issue Class 1’s perhaps. Or is it just whether you like the gal or not?

[PD210]

Righto then,

Thanks for the verifications and comments although Keygrip seems to be going off on one. Was aware of the 300nm xc. That's in the bag.

I did try the search tool on this one. It's a shame you have to be a user and log in for this facility. And typing in CPL seems to be a problem as a word needs to have more than three letters. A shame in this abbreviation ridden world of aviation.

Ta.
Lovely day here. Must go flyin.

PD210

[Dude~]

You might already be aware but some people don't realise that you can download LASORS as a .pdf file for free from the CAA.

That way you can search for 'CPL' for example and instantly get all the official info.

I assume you have your own PC of course!

[BroomstickPilot]

Don't take CPL, take ATPL

PD210,
On the basis of my own experience, I would advise anybody to take ATPL, not CPL.
I strongly urge you to look up my posts on the CPL before you commit yourself to it. If you can't find them, PM me.
Best regards,
BroomstickPilot

[Clandestino]

when you apply for your ATPL, you need 150hours PIC multi-crew

Nope.

When you apply for JAA ATPL, you have to be at leat 21 yrs old, you have to pass ATPL theory, your total flight time should be at leat 1500 hrs, 500 of which on MPA and 250 PiC, 150 of which may be PiCUS. So it's may and not must. If you have 250 PiC hrs, be it in C-172, cub, seneca or pawnee, your PiCUS time might be zero and still you can get your ATPL if you meet other criteria. PiCUS was invented for the lucky ones who went straight from their integrated courses to RHS of some shiny 15t+ turbine equipment so they can get their ATPLs and need not put their co-piloting on hold for 2-3 months while they pound circuit in C-150 and build PiC time.

My CAA doesn't check logbooks for PiCUS entries. To have your PiCUS time recognized, you have to have letter of confirmation by your trainning dept. that you have indeed accrued necessary number of picus hours. As my company policy is to issue confirmations only for pilots who are to be upgraded shortly, F/O with 4000 hrs on MRJT and his ATPL still frozen is not an uncommon sight in my part of the universe.

[PD210]

ATPL and CPL theory

Hi BroomstickPilot,

I understand the difference between ATPL and CPL theory and was well aware of the significant restriction of doing the latter. It was only the other week that I sat my last of the 14 ATPL papers (Air Law - bitchin). But thanks for highlighting the difference, perhaps for others who read this.

Cheers
PD210

[BEagle]

"You do NOT require 100 hours P1 either to start the course, by the end of the course, or before taking the CPL skill test. You only need the 100 hours P1 by the time of application for the licence."

But you do need the 150 hours TT before commencing the CPL Modular Course.

<<edit: He said that in his original post.>>

[powdermonkey]

CPL REQUIREMENTS

Hi all, can you help me on this one?

Experience

The applicant shall have completed in aeroplanes not less than:

(a) 200 hours of flight time or 150 hours if completed during a course of approved training. This may include a maximum of 10 hours in a synthetic flight trainer.
(b) the above is to include:

(i) 100 hours as pilot in command (70 hours in the case of an approved course.
(ii) 20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot in command including a flight of not less than 300 nm with two full stop landings at different aerodromes.
(iii) 20 hours of instrument instruction time of which not more than 5 hours may be ground time.
(iv) if the licence is to be used at night; 5 hours of night flight time including 5 take-offs and 5 landings as pilot in command.

Question; can I start my CPL training at 150hrs total time but only 30hrs P1, complete the training and do the test, and then come up with the rest of the hours in order to have the CPL issued?
Or, do the required hours as stated above need to be completed prior to doing the test?

Thanks if you can clarify
Pm

<<edit: Powder - even if you can't be bothered to run a search - please at least look down to the end of the page (if not one or two more recent ones). The same question is asked every week. The answers don't change.>>