Type Rating - B737
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It never fails to amaze me the amount of people willing to pay tens of thousands of pounds in the hope that, at the completion of flight training, there chances of gaining emploment with a jet carrier is hugely improved by buying a type rating.
Remember, type ratings, especially for types such as Boeing and Airbus are hugely expensive and do not guarantee jobs. In fact far from it! If you have 250hrs and 100hrs experience on a 737 from a 'type rating provider' you will be very lucky to walk straight into a job at completion of the training. At that point you have 350 hours with a 737 type rating that will expire in 12 months.
Most airlines who employ what they call 'direct entry' or 'operation conversion' pilots require that you are current on type and have flown in the last 6 months on type. Also, their expectation of your performance during training is greatly heightened (in my company, a pilot with 2,000 hours off an ATR72 with no previous jet experience would be expected to complete line training on the 737NG at around 45 sectors. A 737NG rated pilot is expected to be ready for line check in 12!). Bearing in mind that most type ratings with 100hrs experience is provided by type rating providers like Astreus, the 100 hours you log are mainly in the cruise between the Middle East and UK!. Thus, very little in the way of handling. The company has no concern that if at the end of 100hrs you are not up to speed as they have filled their end of the bargain.
Thus, it is my humble opinion that a type rating tagged on to your licence at the end of your fATPL training is risky. I know that it has worked for some people and well done and good luck to them. However I think they are in the minority.
I agree with posts above recommending Flight Instructor Ratings. Such a move teaches you an aweful lot about yourself as a pilot and a lot about aviation. It also gets your logbook moving in the right direction, it keeps you current and some one pays you to fly. Quite a novelty after forking out hundred's of Pounds every time you go to aerodrome!
A flight instructor rating also means you can apply for jobs while actually working in the industry as a professional pilot. Means a lot to potential employers.
Just my two cents worth. It is at the end of the day still your life and your decision and I wish all well in whatever direction they move in their attempts to break into the aviaition industry!
Remember, type ratings, especially for types such as Boeing and Airbus are hugely expensive and do not guarantee jobs. In fact far from it! If you have 250hrs and 100hrs experience on a 737 from a 'type rating provider' you will be very lucky to walk straight into a job at completion of the training. At that point you have 350 hours with a 737 type rating that will expire in 12 months.
Most airlines who employ what they call 'direct entry' or 'operation conversion' pilots require that you are current on type and have flown in the last 6 months on type. Also, their expectation of your performance during training is greatly heightened (in my company, a pilot with 2,000 hours off an ATR72 with no previous jet experience would be expected to complete line training on the 737NG at around 45 sectors. A 737NG rated pilot is expected to be ready for line check in 12!). Bearing in mind that most type ratings with 100hrs experience is provided by type rating providers like Astreus, the 100 hours you log are mainly in the cruise between the Middle East and UK!. Thus, very little in the way of handling. The company has no concern that if at the end of 100hrs you are not up to speed as they have filled their end of the bargain.
Thus, it is my humble opinion that a type rating tagged on to your licence at the end of your fATPL training is risky. I know that it has worked for some people and well done and good luck to them. However I think they are in the minority.
I agree with posts above recommending Flight Instructor Ratings. Such a move teaches you an aweful lot about yourself as a pilot and a lot about aviation. It also gets your logbook moving in the right direction, it keeps you current and some one pays you to fly. Quite a novelty after forking out hundred's of Pounds every time you go to aerodrome!
A flight instructor rating also means you can apply for jobs while actually working in the industry as a professional pilot. Means a lot to potential employers.
Just my two cents worth. It is at the end of the day still your life and your decision and I wish all well in whatever direction they move in their attempts to break into the aviaition industry!
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Why not leave flight instruction to people that actually want to teach and make a career out of it and those that wish to be commercial pilots can head off in another direction? That way we won't be subjected to the endless stream of FI's that are just waiting till something better comes along, can't be ar*ed getting out of bed or have huge egos captaining their spam cans and pointing out constantly how incompetent us students are as we have a whole 200 hours less than them.
Look go and be an FI if you want to. If you want to earn £10 an hour and get 300 hours a year living from hand to mouth in some godforsaken back water then good on you and all the best, but do it for all the right reasons and not just to log some more hours. But please don't get all bitter and twisted when you realise after 3 years that you are no further in getting that elusive first job than the rest of us.
Look go and be an FI if you want to. If you want to earn £10 an hour and get 300 hours a year living from hand to mouth in some godforsaken back water then good on you and all the best, but do it for all the right reasons and not just to log some more hours. But please don't get all bitter and twisted when you realise after 3 years that you are no further in getting that elusive first job than the rest of us.
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I did the instruction thing myself to build hours for something "better." I can honestly say that every lesson I gave, I was doing my best for my students and never shafted any of them. If I'd have done it for long though, I'd probably have got all twisted and nasty; I've seen it happen. Without hour building instructors like myself there would simply not be enough instructors out there. For me, instructing swung open plenty of doors in a short space of time. I take it that you think the 737 TR is a better bet potkettleblack?
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I completely agree with potkettleblack!
When I read "do something radical and get an instructor rating..." I laughed.
Thanks for a good chuckle mate!
At least getting a SSTR is in the right direction (even though it's perhaps not the best way). By going to instruct in the beginning of your career, you are effectively undermining the whole idea of quality training. I have during my training seen to many instructors just doing it for the hours and it's just not fair to anyone involved.
What this buissness really needs is more of the small operators doing airwork and photoflights in small AC so that we can restore the natural steppingstones that used to be there. And then try to lure the more experienced pilots into being instructors.
/LnS
When I read "do something radical and get an instructor rating..." I laughed.
Thanks for a good chuckle mate!
At least getting a SSTR is in the right direction (even though it's perhaps not the best way). By going to instruct in the beginning of your career, you are effectively undermining the whole idea of quality training. I have during my training seen to many instructors just doing it for the hours and it's just not fair to anyone involved.
What this buissness really needs is more of the small operators doing airwork and photoflights in small AC so that we can restore the natural steppingstones that used to be there. And then try to lure the more experienced pilots into being instructors.
/LnS
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what this business really needs is for newly qualified pilots not to expect to go straight to a big jet...
how about light piston twin air taxi, king airs, turbo-prop freight ops, ga and instructing.
then there is an order, a ladder to climb.
how about light piston twin air taxi, king airs, turbo-prop freight ops, ga and instructing.
then there is an order, a ladder to climb.
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Originally Posted by south coast
what this business really needs is for newly qualified pilots not to expect to go straight to a big jet...
how about light piston twin air taxi, king airs, turbo-prop freight ops, ga and instructing.
then there is an order, a ladder to climb.
how about light piston twin air taxi, king airs, turbo-prop freight ops, ga and instructing.
then there is an order, a ladder to climb.
"Pilot for hire. Will fly for food and water. Willing to
include floor scrubbing as part of duties."
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I agree with posts suggesting that FI ratings should not be taken lightly as simply a stepping stone. It would be a great thing for the aviation industry as a whole if people wanted to train as Flight Instructors so that they can spend a career passing on knowledge to others. Unfortunately though, the carrer path is simply not there - job security, terms and conditons etc. Thus, Flight Instructing is an obvious and relatively straight forward path for developing ones flying career.
The route of Air Taxi and twins is a difficuilt one as many operators of such aircraft are very reluctant to give Single Pilot jobs flying pax to inexperienced pilots. Flying light twins around single pilot is a challenging job and thus employers tend to go for pilots with quite a few hours. In my experience, they usually prefer to employ ex instructors with a 1000 hours or so who have been conducting multi training. (One of the big reasons is the experience levels dictated to the company by insurance companies).
Thus, we get to the very familiar problem of how to get experience! Yes, aerial work is a path one can take but how many aerial photography companies are there really. Also, how many pilots does a parachute club really need?
So the difficuilt situation exists at the end of ones training. 250 hour fATPL and no experience. No local parachute club looking for pilots. No local aerial photography company. Aerial survey - no. Air Taxi company wants 1000hrs. The usual difficuilty of getting an interview for a regional F/O job. All seems desperate. Yet there is the Flight Instructors rating. Something that keeps your career moving. And most peolpe who become FI are very determined to succeed and thus put a lot of effort and dedication into instructing.
Yes it is a shame that just as Instructors get to a high level of skill in their job they move onto regionals, air taxi etc but unfortunately that is the reality for the training indstry. Such a discussion is really the topic for another thread. People will still make their own decisions in the pursuit of flying. There is no one guaranteed path to the dizzying heights of Jets. My only real advice to people is don't give up, keep your log book moving any way you can and enjoy your time in General Aviation - its where you do real flying!
The route of Air Taxi and twins is a difficuilt one as many operators of such aircraft are very reluctant to give Single Pilot jobs flying pax to inexperienced pilots. Flying light twins around single pilot is a challenging job and thus employers tend to go for pilots with quite a few hours. In my experience, they usually prefer to employ ex instructors with a 1000 hours or so who have been conducting multi training. (One of the big reasons is the experience levels dictated to the company by insurance companies).
Thus, we get to the very familiar problem of how to get experience! Yes, aerial work is a path one can take but how many aerial photography companies are there really. Also, how many pilots does a parachute club really need?
So the difficuilt situation exists at the end of ones training. 250 hour fATPL and no experience. No local parachute club looking for pilots. No local aerial photography company. Aerial survey - no. Air Taxi company wants 1000hrs. The usual difficuilty of getting an interview for a regional F/O job. All seems desperate. Yet there is the Flight Instructors rating. Something that keeps your career moving. And most peolpe who become FI are very determined to succeed and thus put a lot of effort and dedication into instructing.
Yes it is a shame that just as Instructors get to a high level of skill in their job they move onto regionals, air taxi etc but unfortunately that is the reality for the training indstry. Such a discussion is really the topic for another thread. People will still make their own decisions in the pursuit of flying. There is no one guaranteed path to the dizzying heights of Jets. My only real advice to people is don't give up, keep your log book moving any way you can and enjoy your time in General Aviation - its where you do real flying!
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Back to the original request by Aerofoil..... I remember a post by someone under the username of Mercenary_Pilot, just a few weeks back. He'd purchased a 737TR. It has not got him a job and he feels that it's damaging his prospects with TP operators. It's worth a read!
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Everybody who visits this forum has their own opinion on typeratings. Most people talk about the 737 or 320. But what about the 757 with 100 HRS through Bond/Astraeus?!
The discussion about ratings is a long one which I'm not looking to start again. Though one thing seems certain: You do need that rating, preferrably with some hours on it!!!
With regard to the FI rating: All the FI's at my school spent 3-4 years instructing hoping they would be hired after that - realising that was not going to happen. Then they all went out and paid their own typerating and were all hired instantly. Ofcourse they all had in excess of 1000 HRS. All the piston HRS got them nowhere eventhough they were all very talented!!!
The discussion about ratings is a long one which I'm not looking to start again. Though one thing seems certain: You do need that rating, preferrably with some hours on it!!!
With regard to the FI rating: All the FI's at my school spent 3-4 years instructing hoping they would be hired after that - realising that was not going to happen. Then they all went out and paid their own typerating and were all hired instantly. Ofcourse they all had in excess of 1000 HRS. All the piston HRS got them nowhere eventhough they were all very talented!!!
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Do you believe it was just the type rating that got them the job ?
Or maybe a mix of dedication to training, hours, and contacts made afterspending years in the industry.
Come on ??
Or maybe a mix of dedication to training, hours, and contacts made afterspending years in the industry.
Come on ??
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Originally Posted by notneo
Do you believe it was just the type rating that got them the job ?
Or maybe a mix of dedication to training, hours, and contacts made afterspending years in the industry.
Come on ??
Or maybe a mix of dedication to training, hours, and contacts made afterspending years in the industry.
Come on ??
If you read the question that is asked it is wether to buy a rating. Some say yes while others suggest going down the FI path. This is what I'm commenting on
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Well I think it would have been a combination of the type rating, contacts and hours built as an Instructor. Your friends situations are not the same as someone with their CPL and just a type rating is what I was getting at.
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To answer the original question, no, I don't think TR+100hrs will get you a job anymore, probably not even overseas.
The one airline that I know that would accept 100hrs on type is Ryanair, but thats a gamble for 1 airline.
The bar has been raised over time.
When it was scarce, having a type rating would get you a job.
Then time on type would get you a job as it was one better, first we saw 100hrs, then upto 300hrs.
So now we see most jobs advertised needing 500hrs on type.
The bar just keeps going higher and higher.
To be a complete hippocrite, I bought a 737 rating over a year ago. Just as I started the rating the airline I did it with and aiming for raised their experience requirement of entry. Despite building up some 60hrs post rating time in the sim to keep current (free), still no job with anyone.
Yes, I have tried the other end of the spectrum with close to 1000 hours Instructing, with no step in the right muilti direction eventuating.
And just to answer the purists out there of the 'something else' variety, I also have a Science Degree.
Would I do the rating again, yes I think I would, for the pure satisfaction of proving I could do it and knowing I could do it all along, despite being told otherwise. Expensive, yes, but as I look down the barrel of giving away flying, at least I can say I did reach the level I always aspired to.
Getting a job in aviation is about having all the ticks in the right boxes, and then either being in the right place at the right time, or knowing someone.
The one airline that I know that would accept 100hrs on type is Ryanair, but thats a gamble for 1 airline.
The bar has been raised over time.
When it was scarce, having a type rating would get you a job.
Then time on type would get you a job as it was one better, first we saw 100hrs, then upto 300hrs.
So now we see most jobs advertised needing 500hrs on type.
The bar just keeps going higher and higher.
To be a complete hippocrite, I bought a 737 rating over a year ago. Just as I started the rating the airline I did it with and aiming for raised their experience requirement of entry. Despite building up some 60hrs post rating time in the sim to keep current (free), still no job with anyone.
Yes, I have tried the other end of the spectrum with close to 1000 hours Instructing, with no step in the right muilti direction eventuating.
And just to answer the purists out there of the 'something else' variety, I also have a Science Degree.
Would I do the rating again, yes I think I would, for the pure satisfaction of proving I could do it and knowing I could do it all along, despite being told otherwise. Expensive, yes, but as I look down the barrel of giving away flying, at least I can say I did reach the level I always aspired to.
Getting a job in aviation is about having all the ticks in the right boxes, and then either being in the right place at the right time, or knowing someone.
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I would say most of it is to do with `if your face fits`.
Think about it, we must have all flown with someone with all the boxes on paper ticked but they were just a complete ***** of a person!
I know I have and the atmosphere is just bad.
Think about it, we must have all flown with someone with all the boxes on paper ticked but they were just a complete ***** of a person!
I know I have and the atmosphere is just bad.
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Hixton - if you have been to Gatwick (or any of the exams centres for that matter) it is a real eye opener and you see loads of oddballs. Mind you it can be quite uplifting if your having a down day.
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Type Rating - B737
Hey all,
I have finally made it after 3 years ( working all kinds of crappy jobs ) and iv been sponsored by an airline to do my type rating for the 737!
Although there is about a 30% fail in the Simulator so I would like anyone with a rating or so to give me some basic pointers and what to do and what to look for cause I dont want to let this great chance go by...
Any help would be most appreciated.
Thanks
I have finally made it after 3 years ( working all kinds of crappy jobs ) and iv been sponsored by an airline to do my type rating for the 737!
Although there is about a 30% fail in the Simulator so I would like anyone with a rating or so to give me some basic pointers and what to do and what to look for cause I dont want to let this great chance go by...
Any help would be most appreciated.
Thanks
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Firstly, congrats on getting a great result.
The advice above is spot on and there are loads of web sites to obtain all that information
I have sent you an email that may be of help to you, something I wrote the other day in fact, to someone else who asked me the same question. (Not that I am any kind of expert) just have recently completed one.
Hope you find it useful.
All the best
Flyfish
The advice above is spot on and there are loads of web sites to obtain all that information
I have sent you an email that may be of help to you, something I wrote the other day in fact, to someone else who asked me the same question. (Not that I am any kind of expert) just have recently completed one.
Hope you find it useful.
All the best
Flyfish
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Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Also some useful stuff at www.smartcockpit.com.