Help with MSA please.......
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Help with MSA please.......
if you'd be so kind to help please...
scenario: VFR flight north-eastwards over a tall obstacle - alt. 2452ft (Winterhill in fact!); MEF on chart for that block is 25, Class A airspace is at 3500ft.
The track takes you within 5 miles of Winterhill.
What would you set as your MSA assuming you're being examined for inadvertantly entering cloud just as you're reaching that area?
Pilot has no IR or IMC rating etc. and you're not allowed to alter track.
Hopefully not missed any major info out here but it wouldn't be the first time.....
Thanks very much in advance
scenario: VFR flight north-eastwards over a tall obstacle - alt. 2452ft (Winterhill in fact!); MEF on chart for that block is 25, Class A airspace is at 3500ft.
The track takes you within 5 miles of Winterhill.
What would you set as your MSA assuming you're being examined for inadvertantly entering cloud just as you're reaching that area?
Pilot has no IR or IMC rating etc. and you're not allowed to alter track.
Hopefully not missed any major info out here but it wouldn't be the first time.....
Thanks very much in advance
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I would climb to MSA = 3452 and get out of the cloud . MSA= 1000FT above highest obstacle. The MEF has a a margin for unknown obstacles above the highest known objstacle and is a safe altitude for VFR only. Enen though you are VFR you apply the MSA IFR rule and get out ...Open to criticism!
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Pilot has no IR or IMC rating etc. and you're not allowed to alter track
If you enter cloud, rule 1 is to turn through 180 degrees and go back to where you know there is no cloud.
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If I inadvertantly entered cloud and was uncertain of my position then I think I would climd to the MSA = 3500Ft (as I'm not very good at flying level at 3452FT).
If I've now gone IMC then I'm in trouble so I'd be declaring a MAYDAY and contacting ATC, the Manch or Warton Radar if necessary and getting vectors out of there.
If I've now gone IMC then I'm in trouble so I'd be declaring a MAYDAY and contacting ATC, the Manch or Warton Radar if necessary and getting vectors out of there.
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cheers for replies.....
fullrich: The chances of me not hitting 3500ft and therefore CAS is damn unlikely! It's all getting a bit tight on accuarcy now
fmgc: I agree, but I'm looking for a definative solution without changing track.....if there is one! Starting to think that altering track is the best way and taking the penalty of it not being the most commercially viable track.
World of Tweed: yeah, that was my first thought (climb to 3400ft and ask for help). Being absolutely precise, still not 1000ft above. I know you said 3500 but that's bloody Class A again!!
Thanks again
fullrich: The chances of me not hitting 3500ft and therefore CAS is damn unlikely! It's all getting a bit tight on accuarcy now
fmgc: I agree, but I'm looking for a definative solution without changing track.....if there is one! Starting to think that altering track is the best way and taking the penalty of it not being the most commercially viable track.
World of Tweed: yeah, that was my first thought (climb to 3400ft and ask for help). Being absolutely precise, still not 1000ft above. I know you said 3500 but that's bloody Class A again!!
Thanks again
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Bugging - I agree with Tweeds response - you are in serious trouble. 180° level turn (away from the mast), climb or descend as appropriate to MSA (which is only an IFR thing - but you've just gone IFR by definition of being in IMC). MSA (according to the CAA) doesn't exist in the VFR world. If still in IMC declare an emergency on the R/T.
Take that one step further - in the event of an emergency the pilot may take any action deemed necessary to deal with that emergency. If that includes entering Class A airspace then go do it....but tell somebody when you get chance (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate).
I'm actually equally inclined to agree with fmgc's account. If you've gone IMC without a suitable rating (experience, clearance or currency) then it's a 180° turn.
If your scenario is for a flight test, YOU are the (assumed) Captain of the aircraft for the test profile. If an examiner suggests anything other than the 180° turn then remind them, in writing (with a copy to [email protected]), of "Regulation 6".
The examiner is probably, however, looking for you to over rule them, take "command" of the situation and do the turn. "Commercially viable" goes out the window when you encounter emergencies or break the law (as you are not allowed to enter cloud without that rating, clearance or currency).
Take that one step further - in the event of an emergency the pilot may take any action deemed necessary to deal with that emergency. If that includes entering Class A airspace then go do it....but tell somebody when you get chance (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate).
I'm actually equally inclined to agree with fmgc's account. If you've gone IMC without a suitable rating (experience, clearance or currency) then it's a 180° turn.
If your scenario is for a flight test, YOU are the (assumed) Captain of the aircraft for the test profile. If an examiner suggests anything other than the 180° turn then remind them, in writing (with a copy to [email protected]), of "Regulation 6".
The examiner is probably, however, looking for you to over rule them, take "command" of the situation and do the turn. "Commercially viable" goes out the window when you encounter emergencies or break the law (as you are not allowed to enter cloud without that rating, clearance or currency).
In the original scenario, I think the keyword is VFR.
I always thought the height requirements for same were not below 500' AGL, including the highest obstacle within 2000' horizontal distance of the flightpath.
Aren't the references to MSA and 5NM a bit red herringy? They would certainly apply to IFR flight. If the hill was in an area of desicnated mountainous terrain, the MSA would be 2000' (IFR).
Or am I misunderstanding something here?
I always thought the height requirements for same were not below 500' AGL, including the highest obstacle within 2000' horizontal distance of the flightpath.
Aren't the references to MSA and 5NM a bit red herringy? They would certainly apply to IFR flight. If the hill was in an area of desicnated mountainous terrain, the MSA would be 2000' (IFR).
Or am I misunderstanding something here?
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Well Well .All my training CPL/MULTI/IR training meant nothing if I believe all this. The first thing you do if you enter cloud on a vfr flight is climb to the MSA. Not much point in turning thru 180 degrees if you run into a hill. You may then proceed to call ATC or declare an emegency.ATC are not always aware of exact terrain values but if you fly at MSA then vectors are fine.Yes MSA is a safe IFR altitude and not a reference for normal VFR flight but if you enter cloud then you must climb to a safe altitude. Wheather that is 3452 which I think is technically correct or 3500 is open for debate. Most if not all uncontrolled airspace has a margin over terrain of 1000FT regardless of height of terrain for this purpose.
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If you enter cloud then you must climb to a safe altitude
However, I too am a tad confused over the question. For the ATPLs the question use the Jepp VFR chart for which the printed MEF (or the equivelent) will be pre-calculated to add 1000'/2000' to the highest obstacle depending of terrain height, that is obviously not what you are using here, but this doesn't seem to be a JAA PPL style question either - what exam is this for? The way the MEF is shown in the question suggests a CAA chart (no idea about US sectionals). I shall assume UK.
If you are in cloud, inadvertently, regardless of your lack of ratings you are IFR. If so then the MSA is the higher of 1000' above the highest obstacle or 1300' above the highest ground within 5nm of your track (1300' because of the 300' allowance for uncharted obstacles). Which in this case should be 3800' not 3500'. I too would judge the Class A to be the lesser of the two (we)evils and the rules of the air specifically provides a clause which permits the breaking of any rule should maintining it expose the flight to an unacceptable level of risk.
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If I inadvertantly entered cloud and was uncertain of my position then I think I would climd to the MSA = 3500Ft (as I'm not very good at flying level at 3452FT).
Wheather that is 3452 which I think is technically correct or 3500 is open for debate.
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Quite easy to say climb to MSA and request vectors, if you are a vfr pilot entering cloud is disorientating and panic inducing things you can do. Even with an ATC vectoring you and trying to calm you down I would imagine you would be totally panic stricken if you remained in IMC for more than about 10mins and one's ability to keep wings level and maintain speed would rapidly diminish. I think the natural tendancy would be to descend and get out of the cloud, if you kept climbing you could be in there for ages, alttough climbing is the more sensible option.
Maybe I'm an nervous pilot, but the thought of it sends shivers down my back.
Maybe I'm an nervous pilot, but the thought of it sends shivers down my back.
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The most worrying thing about this question is that there is somebody out potentially teaching dangerous manouveres. A new PPL is unlikely to maintain control for their aircraft in cloud for long enough for the question to have any meaning. You don't just enter cloud when flying VFR by accident - it's painted white so that you can see it. So you either do a 180 and descend out of cloud or change schools!
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As I recall, the calculation of MSA is the height of the highest ground rounded up to the nearest 100ft, plus 100ft to account for man-made obstacles on top of the hill, plus 1000ft (for ground below 3000ft - 2000ft for higher ground). On a planned route, all ground within a certain distance of track should be accounted for, depending on the speed you are flying, and the company/authority rules you are flying under.
As a theoretical question, the MSA in this case would be 3600ft and thus you would not be allowed to go IMC (and thus have to fly at or above MSA) as you would not be in the open FIR. You would have to declare IFR with the controlling authority and fly under their control until you could regain VMC.
If you are flying VFR in the first place, you must remain 500ft clear of the ground, and clear of cloud (again, speed is a factor here). While you remain VFR, your hill is not a factor unless you decide to fly over the top of it. If the weather is such that there is a reasonable risk that you could go IMC while attempting to stay above your 500ft minimum, and thus have to climb to MSA - thus penetrating controlled airspace - you must not fly there unless you have pre-arranged your contingency plan with the controlling authority.*
If your flying experience is such that you have no IF capability, you must not put yourself into a situation where cloud penetration is a possibility, whether or not MSA and controlled airspace are factors. You could very well kill yourself and others - it has happened several times.
Scroggs
*If you ever find yourself inadvertently in this situation, it is an emergency. Get onto 121.5 and call Mayday. Squawk 7700 if you have that capability. If you can't regain VMC, fly at MSA on the most sensible heading you can think of (ie away from higher ground and any lower controlled airspace - this is where pre-flight route study is so important). D&D will auto-triangulate your position and guide you to a safe area to let down, or a diversion airport.
As a theoretical question, the MSA in this case would be 3600ft and thus you would not be allowed to go IMC (and thus have to fly at or above MSA) as you would not be in the open FIR. You would have to declare IFR with the controlling authority and fly under their control until you could regain VMC.
If you are flying VFR in the first place, you must remain 500ft clear of the ground, and clear of cloud (again, speed is a factor here). While you remain VFR, your hill is not a factor unless you decide to fly over the top of it. If the weather is such that there is a reasonable risk that you could go IMC while attempting to stay above your 500ft minimum, and thus have to climb to MSA - thus penetrating controlled airspace - you must not fly there unless you have pre-arranged your contingency plan with the controlling authority.*
If your flying experience is such that you have no IF capability, you must not put yourself into a situation where cloud penetration is a possibility, whether or not MSA and controlled airspace are factors. You could very well kill yourself and others - it has happened several times.
Scroggs
*If you ever find yourself inadvertently in this situation, it is an emergency. Get onto 121.5 and call Mayday. Squawk 7700 if you have that capability. If you can't regain VMC, fly at MSA on the most sensible heading you can think of (ie away from higher ground and any lower controlled airspace - this is where pre-flight route study is so important). D&D will auto-triangulate your position and guide you to a safe area to let down, or a diversion airport.
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Scroggs,
Tis 300' allowance for uncharted man made bits and bobs lying on top of hills. This is quite important as, from second hand information, there seems to be a number of 280' wind turbines popping up around the country, obviously most likely on top of a hill! So I reckon the MSA is 3800'.
All,
Been posted before, but it is interesting hearing how quickly IMC panic sets in! http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
plus 100ft to account for man-made obstacles on top of the hill
All,
Been posted before, but it is interesting hearing how quickly IMC panic sets in! http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
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Thanks all for your replies, helpful indeed.
Except for RVR800 - the examiner can declare you've inadvertently entered cloud at any time on the route, if they happen to do so right in the locality of that damn mast I want to be a 100% sure of what I should do.....and not just for test purposes.
Except for RVR800 - the examiner can declare you've inadvertently entered cloud at any time on the route, if they happen to do so right in the locality of that damn mast I want to be a 100% sure of what I should do.....and not just for test purposes.
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Many, many years ago a student pilot with a Prentice was found on the Chivenor RLG (Winkliegh?). He had come from Feltwell, in Norfolk.
Just post solo, he had entered cloud on a SW heading, and could do no more than hold s&l on instruments. After some time he worked out that he might run out of land, and tried to do a 180. He lost control and spun out of cloud, where he recovered from the spin and landed at the first airfield he saw.
New batch of pilots - same old problems!
Dick W
Just post solo, he had entered cloud on a SW heading, and could do no more than hold s&l on instruments. After some time he worked out that he might run out of land, and tried to do a 180. He lost control and spun out of cloud, where he recovered from the spin and landed at the first airfield he saw.
New batch of pilots - same old problems!
Dick W
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Guys,
I picked up on bugginout's post by accident and really cant believe some of the replys - infact, without any disrespect to buggingout, I cant believe the question.
There is no, and I mean no, none, nine, nict circumstances under which a VFR rated pilot should ever find themselves in IMC conditions so the question shouldnt even arise. And please dont give me any rubbish about "well it happens so how do I deal with it". It should never never ever happen. If you are not rated for IFR then there are no conditions, failing stupidity, under which it could happen. If it does happen then you have made a big mistake in your pre fight planning. The average life span for a VFR pilot in IMC conditions is seconds - it may be a large number of seconds but it is still seconds, like somewhere between 40 and 100.
Firstly, there is no such thing as MSA in VFR. MSA is an IFR term which has a specific definition. Under VFR rules, ther is a safety altitude which is loosley 1000 ft above the highest obstacle within 5 NM eitherside of track including the start and end point which is often forgotten. It means simply that you draw a 5 nm race track around your intended track and add 1000 ft to your flight planned altitude. This however is a minimum recommendation and flight schools can insist on a 10 or even 15 nm track if the wish.
Secondly, to be non rated in IMC conditions and contemplating a get out strategy once in IMC is unbelivelably reckless. For a start, if you are unfortunate enough (and i'd prefer to say stupid but,,,) to enter IMC from VFR and are not rated, the last thing you should do is to try and perform a 180 degree U turn as your chances of survival are much less. You have no idea.... read "The Killing Zone" if you dont believe me.
The only solution is not to enter IFR without being IFR rated. If the examiner tries to push you into a decision, he is mearly testing your level of stupidity. Will this guy/gal try and press on through adverse wx or will he/she do the sensible thing and turn back or better still not even leave the ground in the first place.
PS
I know this is going to draw a reaction and I assure you all that it is not meant to but....
I personally think, and I use the posts on this topic as justification for my opinion (and it is just my opinion), that the CAA IMC rating encourages pilots to think that they can get through wx that they really should have run a mile from five minutes agao. My aviation authority, like many others in europe dont recoginise the IMC rating and as a result, not as many non CAA license holders get into the difficulties that this poster has asked advice on. I go back to when spin training was taught on the PPL. There were many fatal accidents and as a result the authorities in their wisdom removed it from the syallabus. Fatalaties as a result dropped sharply. Why, well I'd like to think that we were taught that the spin envelope was somewhere to be avoided so we didnt go there. The analagy is similar but opposite. By teaching a 'taster' for IFR which the IMC programme does, it gives a false sence of security and leaves pilots with an IMC thinking that they can cope with what is the most demanding of all flying skills - IFR. Please STOP the IMC qualification I say, but then again, who am I!!
Thanks n safe flying to all
I picked up on bugginout's post by accident and really cant believe some of the replys - infact, without any disrespect to buggingout, I cant believe the question.
There is no, and I mean no, none, nine, nict circumstances under which a VFR rated pilot should ever find themselves in IMC conditions so the question shouldnt even arise. And please dont give me any rubbish about "well it happens so how do I deal with it". It should never never ever happen. If you are not rated for IFR then there are no conditions, failing stupidity, under which it could happen. If it does happen then you have made a big mistake in your pre fight planning. The average life span for a VFR pilot in IMC conditions is seconds - it may be a large number of seconds but it is still seconds, like somewhere between 40 and 100.
Firstly, there is no such thing as MSA in VFR. MSA is an IFR term which has a specific definition. Under VFR rules, ther is a safety altitude which is loosley 1000 ft above the highest obstacle within 5 NM eitherside of track including the start and end point which is often forgotten. It means simply that you draw a 5 nm race track around your intended track and add 1000 ft to your flight planned altitude. This however is a minimum recommendation and flight schools can insist on a 10 or even 15 nm track if the wish.
Secondly, to be non rated in IMC conditions and contemplating a get out strategy once in IMC is unbelivelably reckless. For a start, if you are unfortunate enough (and i'd prefer to say stupid but,,,) to enter IMC from VFR and are not rated, the last thing you should do is to try and perform a 180 degree U turn as your chances of survival are much less. You have no idea.... read "The Killing Zone" if you dont believe me.
The only solution is not to enter IFR without being IFR rated. If the examiner tries to push you into a decision, he is mearly testing your level of stupidity. Will this guy/gal try and press on through adverse wx or will he/she do the sensible thing and turn back or better still not even leave the ground in the first place.
PS
I know this is going to draw a reaction and I assure you all that it is not meant to but....
I personally think, and I use the posts on this topic as justification for my opinion (and it is just my opinion), that the CAA IMC rating encourages pilots to think that they can get through wx that they really should have run a mile from five minutes agao. My aviation authority, like many others in europe dont recoginise the IMC rating and as a result, not as many non CAA license holders get into the difficulties that this poster has asked advice on. I go back to when spin training was taught on the PPL. There were many fatal accidents and as a result the authorities in their wisdom removed it from the syallabus. Fatalaties as a result dropped sharply. Why, well I'd like to think that we were taught that the spin envelope was somewhere to be avoided so we didnt go there. The analagy is similar but opposite. By teaching a 'taster' for IFR which the IMC programme does, it gives a false sence of security and leaves pilots with an IMC thinking that they can cope with what is the most demanding of all flying skills - IFR. Please STOP the IMC qualification I say, but then again, who am I!!
Thanks n safe flying to all
Last edited by carbheaton; 4th Jul 2006 at 23:46.
1. MEF figures already allow for the 'unknown object' if there isn't a more significant one (such as a tall TV mast) already in the block.
2. If there is a known tall obstacle, the MEF is still correct as it is assumed that the 'unknown object' won't be placed on top of it!
Climbing to Safety Altitude is strictly only relevant in IMC. This was a VFR flight; the mast should be considered as a 'structure' - hence observe Rule 5 separation. I doubt whether Winter Hill is in a 'congested area', so the 500 ft rule applies if it's in an isolated location.
If you think you might enter cloud, 180 deg level turn and RTB.
2. If there is a known tall obstacle, the MEF is still correct as it is assumed that the 'unknown object' won't be placed on top of it!
Climbing to Safety Altitude is strictly only relevant in IMC. This was a VFR flight; the mast should be considered as a 'structure' - hence observe Rule 5 separation. I doubt whether Winter Hill is in a 'congested area', so the 500 ft rule applies if it's in an isolated location.
If you think you might enter cloud, 180 deg level turn and RTB.
