Maths and Physics knowledge req'd for ATPL and airline flying?
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Oxford do a one-week course, if you're interested. It's aimed specifically at bringing pre-ATPL students up to entry standard in elementary maths and physics for an ATPL course.
I don't wish to appear to be advertising, but you did specifically ask. The details are on the Oxford website.
I don't wish to appear to be advertising, but you did specifically ask. The details are on the Oxford website.
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Save your money, and do not go to a maths brush up course. I did, and it was a waste of £200. They said 10 hrs, I got 5, since they assumed you did not know how to add, or what a number was.
I have a maths O-level, and gave up Physics when I was 14. I got through the ATPLs OK.
Buy some good GCSE books. There are quite a few available, so have a look through their different styles and select the one which will suit your learning style.
Good ATPL notes will walk you through the theory and background you will need in anycase.
I have a maths O-level, and gave up Physics when I was 14. I got through the ATPLs OK.
Buy some good GCSE books. There are quite a few available, so have a look through their different styles and select the one which will suit your learning style.
Good ATPL notes will walk you through the theory and background you will need in anycase.
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In response to G-SPOT, the level is precisely what is required to start an ATPL course. That is GCSE Maths and Physics. It is no higher - so some people dismiss it - but it is no lower, either - and some people underestimate it.
No Sponsor doesn't make it clear whether the course he did was an OAT course or someone else's. If he's already an ATPL, I presume it must have been a year or two ago, before OAT offered our course. He was obviously already at a higher level than some other people on the course he did. Well, I'm pleased, because he should have found the ATPL course that much easier as a result.
Actually, some people don't know how to add and subtract when they start the course. We have to start at a basic level which includes everybody. We progress beyond it quite quickly, though.
As for number on each course, in general there have been around 8 - 10 up till now. It depends largely on the take-up for each session. If it got to 20 or more, we'd probably run 2 parallel courses, or close that course off and offer later students a later date.
No Sponsor doesn't make it clear whether the course he did was an OAT course or someone else's. If he's already an ATPL, I presume it must have been a year or two ago, before OAT offered our course. He was obviously already at a higher level than some other people on the course he did. Well, I'm pleased, because he should have found the ATPL course that much easier as a result.
Actually, some people don't know how to add and subtract when they start the course. We have to start at a basic level which includes everybody. We progress beyond it quite quickly, though.
As for number on each course, in general there have been around 8 - 10 up till now. It depends largely on the take-up for each session. If it got to 20 or more, we'd probably run 2 parallel courses, or close that course off and offer later students a later date.
Last edited by oxford blue; 9th Jan 2005 at 16:21.
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Actually, some people don't know how to add and subtract when they start the course
Please tell me you are joking
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Hi kilobravo
If you contact Barry Hamblin a lecturer at Bristol ground school, he has put together a great little manual called mathematics for aviation. It’s all you need to get through the atpl exams.
If you contact Barry Hamblin a lecturer at Bristol ground school, he has put together a great little manual called mathematics for aviation. It’s all you need to get through the atpl exams.
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thanks
Thanks 4 the advice and information. I spoke to Cranfield about their keynotes books, inc. Maths and Physics for Pilots. I presume this is the one you mention Aerosteve. I shall order it today. I will also contact Barry Hamblin notes, thanks Liverbird.
Best lock myself in and get cracking!!!
Thanks again everyone
KB
Best lock myself in and get cracking!!!
Thanks again everyone
KB
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hello kilobravo,
if you let us know how the notes are, im no expert on maths/physics but I do know all the basics, but wouldn't mind the odd book to brush up before I do any atpls.
if you let us know how the notes are, im no expert on maths/physics but I do know all the basics, but wouldn't mind the odd book to brush up before I do any atpls.
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I've been looking at different books for mental arithmatic and have found "speed mathematics" by Bill Handley a good book.
e.g
Speed Mathematics teaches simple methods that will enable you to make lightning calculations in your head–including multiplication, division, addition, and subtraction, as well as working with fractions, squaring numbers, and extracting square and cube roots. Here’s just one example of this revolutionary approach to basic mathematics:
96 x 97 =
Subtract each number from 100.
96 x 97 =
4 3
Subtract diagonally. Either 96—3 or 97— 4.
The result is the first part of the answer.
96 x 97 = 93
4 3
Multiply the numbers in the circles. 4 x 3 = 12.
This is the second part of the answer.
96 x 97 = 9312
4 3
It’s that easy!
e.g
Speed Mathematics teaches simple methods that will enable you to make lightning calculations in your head–including multiplication, division, addition, and subtraction, as well as working with fractions, squaring numbers, and extracting square and cube roots. Here’s just one example of this revolutionary approach to basic mathematics:
96 x 97 =
Subtract each number from 100.
96 x 97 =
4 3
Subtract diagonally. Either 96—3 or 97— 4.
The result is the first part of the answer.
96 x 97 = 93
4 3
Multiply the numbers in the circles. 4 x 3 = 12.
This is the second part of the answer.
96 x 97 = 9312
4 3
It’s that easy!
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yea I know how u guys feel, my mental maths isn't amazing. I really need to work on it. Addition and subraction is ok, and even multiplication to an extent but I really suck at division. doh.
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it works for everything but it uses something called base reference numbers (sounds complicated but the book explains them and it becomes easy - oh and i'm no genious!).
e.g in this example we are using two base reference numbers 20 & 80 and as 20 goes in to 80 four times we can substitue 80 to a 4.)
23 x 87
BR (20 x 4) 23 x 87
both numbers are higher than the reference numbers (i.e 23 is higher than 20 and 87 is higher than 80) so we draw circles above
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87=?
now multiply the 3 above the 23 by multiplication factor 4. (3 x 4 = 12
so it now looks like this
+12
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87=?
now add 12 to the 87 which gives 99
now multiply 99 by the other base reference number 20
99 X 20 = 1980
(99 x 20 is easy because you do 99 + 99 which gives 198 and then just add a 0 to signify the tenths.)
and then multiply 3 by the 7
99 X 20 = 1980
3 x 7 = 21
= 2001
add them together and done!
so the problem is this
+12
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87 = 99
=1980
= 21
=2001
looks a lot to take in but the book is an easy read and explains it far better.....
hope this helps
oh I forgot!
If both numbers in the circles are below the reference number (98 is -2 from a hundred) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles the result you subtract + & - = -
If both numbers in the circles are above the reference number (102 is +2 from a hundred) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles result you add+ & + = +
If one number is above and one is below the reference number (102 is +2 from a hundred but 98 is -2 below) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles the result you add- & - = +
e.g in this example we are using two base reference numbers 20 & 80 and as 20 goes in to 80 four times we can substitue 80 to a 4.)
23 x 87
BR (20 x 4) 23 x 87
both numbers are higher than the reference numbers (i.e 23 is higher than 20 and 87 is higher than 80) so we draw circles above
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87=?
now multiply the 3 above the 23 by multiplication factor 4. (3 x 4 = 12
so it now looks like this
+12
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87=?
now add 12 to the 87 which gives 99
now multiply 99 by the other base reference number 20
99 X 20 = 1980
(99 x 20 is easy because you do 99 + 99 which gives 198 and then just add a 0 to signify the tenths.)
and then multiply 3 by the 7
99 X 20 = 1980
3 x 7 = 21
= 2001
add them together and done!
so the problem is this
+12
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87 = 99
=1980
= 21
=2001
looks a lot to take in but the book is an easy read and explains it far better.....
hope this helps
oh I forgot!
If both numbers in the circles are below the reference number (98 is -2 from a hundred) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles the result you subtract + & - = -
If both numbers in the circles are above the reference number (102 is +2 from a hundred) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles result you add+ & + = +
If one number is above and one is below the reference number (102 is +2 from a hundred but 98 is -2 below) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles the result you add- & - = +
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Maths, Science and the ATPL
Hi guys and girls,
I have performed a search on this but didn't really get the answer i was looking for.
I have taken the plunge and decided that i'm going to start my ATPL theory but before i do i need to know how best to prepare.
What level of maths and physics do you really need to be able to complete and pass the 14 JAA exams?
Can I understand cocepts as i go along or is it necessary to have a good understanding before you start? I realise that there is a huge amount to cram into your head.... i was just wondering what had worked for others?
I haven't studied either subject in depth since i was at school, however i found the PPL reasonably easy to understand. Anything that went over my head i quickly revised and generraly got to grips with.
Any advice fom current and post atpl''s would be more than welcome
Thank you all very much keep up the good work
I have performed a search on this but didn't really get the answer i was looking for.
I have taken the plunge and decided that i'm going to start my ATPL theory but before i do i need to know how best to prepare.
What level of maths and physics do you really need to be able to complete and pass the 14 JAA exams?
Can I understand cocepts as i go along or is it necessary to have a good understanding before you start? I realise that there is a huge amount to cram into your head.... i was just wondering what had worked for others?
I haven't studied either subject in depth since i was at school, however i found the PPL reasonably easy to understand. Anything that went over my head i quickly revised and generraly got to grips with.
Any advice fom current and post atpl''s would be more than welcome
Thank you all very much keep up the good work
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Well I got them all first time, and my high school major subjects were art, history and classical studies ...
My wife had no trouble with them either, and she based all her school studies around her teenage ambitions to be a fashion designer
Seriously, all this melodrama about 'what to study before the ATPLs' is highly over rated. If you can add, subtract, multiply and divide then you have all the tools to crack even the most tricky ATPL formulaes you will encounter (i.e. PNR and ETP calcs in ATPL nav for example). Once you've got the notes in hand, or you start attending the classes, then they will teach you all the new skills you need to know. There are of course, some geeks who can seemingly breeze through these things without doing tuppence worth of study and going to the pub every night on ground school, but you'll still be fine even if you learn at the pace of normal mortals, as long as you put the study in before you go to the exams.
The reason people have so much trouble with ATPLs is not the difficulty level of the material, so much as the sheer mind boggling volume of sh!te you have to memorize
Unfortunately that isn't something you can prepare for by studying at school. You just have to take the bull by the horns and start trying to learn this stuff, make little notes and mnemonics and summary sheets of all the chapters as you go, and pray you can remember enough of it under exam conditions to scratch a pass.
And the really stupid thing is, that once it's all over and you're flying those airliners, you will use about 0.00001 % of all that knowledge you learned (in fact you will have forgotten most of it within a fortnight of getting the exam pass). The most challenging mental arithmetic I've had to do in my career as a pilot is when I'm trying to convert the price of two bottles of duty free Absolut from Norwegian kroner to pounds, or maybe how much is a 15% tip on a £76.45 restaurant bill After a couple of years you will give your ATPL notes and practice exams to your mates, sell your nav wheel on ebay, look back and think 'what the hell was all that about'?
My wife had no trouble with them either, and she based all her school studies around her teenage ambitions to be a fashion designer
Seriously, all this melodrama about 'what to study before the ATPLs' is highly over rated. If you can add, subtract, multiply and divide then you have all the tools to crack even the most tricky ATPL formulaes you will encounter (i.e. PNR and ETP calcs in ATPL nav for example). Once you've got the notes in hand, or you start attending the classes, then they will teach you all the new skills you need to know. There are of course, some geeks who can seemingly breeze through these things without doing tuppence worth of study and going to the pub every night on ground school, but you'll still be fine even if you learn at the pace of normal mortals, as long as you put the study in before you go to the exams.
The reason people have so much trouble with ATPLs is not the difficulty level of the material, so much as the sheer mind boggling volume of sh!te you have to memorize
Unfortunately that isn't something you can prepare for by studying at school. You just have to take the bull by the horns and start trying to learn this stuff, make little notes and mnemonics and summary sheets of all the chapters as you go, and pray you can remember enough of it under exam conditions to scratch a pass.And the really stupid thing is, that once it's all over and you're flying those airliners, you will use about 0.00001 % of all that knowledge you learned (in fact you will have forgotten most of it within a fortnight of getting the exam pass). The most challenging mental arithmetic I've had to do in my career as a pilot is when I'm trying to convert the price of two bottles of duty free Absolut from Norwegian kroner to pounds, or maybe how much is a 15% tip on a £76.45 restaurant bill
After a couple of years you will give your ATPL notes and practice exams to your mates, sell your nav wheel on ebay, look back and think 'what the hell was all that about'?
Last edited by Luke SkyToddler; 27th Feb 2005 at 08:19.
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You only really need...
Maths is not really required - so even if you are a duffer, like me, I wouldn't worry. Just read and try to understand how the solutions are arrived at. As for the physics, just read and remember. Having a grounding in these subjects just makes it easier to understand the garbage you will be forced to learn (and then forget). Most of the ATPL schools (or even all) have the ability to teach you what you need in a few minutes flat. Your English skills however (comma!) will prove essential. Because unless you understand the question, you won't be able to answer.
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Maths wise, I don't see how you can get along without at least understanding trigonometry and transformations.
Physics is largely common sense. Of course, the areas that aren't readily deducible without specific understanding will not be overlooked by the CAA.
My advise, is be able to work things out from first principles. This helped me as I simply could not memorise everything.
To answer your question: Brush up on those basic elements of maths now, deal with the physics as you go. If you can memorise the equations and know how to manipulate them, then you can pretty much forget about trying to remeber answers for a significant volume of the work.
Physics is largely common sense. Of course, the areas that aren't readily deducible without specific understanding will not be overlooked by the CAA.
My advise, is be able to work things out from first principles. This helped me as I simply could not memorise everything.
To answer your question: Brush up on those basic elements of maths now, deal with the physics as you go. If you can memorise the equations and know how to manipulate them, then you can pretty much forget about trying to remeber answers for a significant volume of the work.
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Are there really that many questions that you have to be a wizz at maths for? Certainly weren't in day (1991). And as for the trig, we are only really talking about very basic stuff. I don't know of any ATPL school who wouldn't be able to get you up to speed PDQ.
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HI
Currently doing atpl's with bristol. As everyone else has said, as long as your willing to work at it you do not need masses of mathematical knowledge. Basic formulae and manipulation, probably about comparable to gcse level.
Are you doing distance learning or residential. If you are doing distance learning and finding it hard you can always go for some instruction then, and if your residential the instructors will be on hand. However you should be fine.
Good Luck.
Cloud 99
Currently doing atpl's with bristol. As everyone else has said, as long as your willing to work at it you do not need masses of mathematical knowledge. Basic formulae and manipulation, probably about comparable to gcse level.
Are you doing distance learning or residential. If you are doing distance learning and finding it hard you can always go for some instruction then, and if your residential the instructors will be on hand. However you should be fine.
Good Luck.
Cloud 99