Paying Up front
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dont pay money upfront,...
I lost money too, not too much, but I suggest you an escrow account or pay little by little.
stay away from the usual" if you pay now, you have 10% discount".
you can save 2400 pounds or lose all your money,don't take this option.
this is the big advantage of the modular training.
I lost money too, not too much, but I suggest you an escrow account or pay little by little.
stay away from the usual" if you pay now, you have 10% discount".
you can save 2400 pounds or lose all your money,don't take this option.
this is the big advantage of the modular training.
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On the subject of payment, I would like to quote the advice of our own Pprune Towers in a very similar thread from a couple of years ago:
Scroggs
Originally Posted by Pprune Towers
Most basic advice of all for any foreign training.
Never pay up front.
Never pay up front in travelers cheques
Never pay up front by transfer to a bank in a third country or offshore.
Never pay up front.
Never pay up front to gain a supposed 'discount.'
Never go to a school that claims credit cards can only be used for minor ancillary items like charts.
Every single one of these ploys effectively strips you of basic rights and makes you a prisoner of that school.
If you have problems with the school, it's equipment, accommodation or any other part of the package you are trapped in a foreign country without any effective short term recourse or bargaining tool.
This warning will appear again on certain threads in the future. We make no apologies in forcefully educating wannabes.
Think about this: If the school is any good and it is in an aviation friendly, fine weather part of the world it must have a constant throughput of students. What possible need is there then for large, instant chunks of money surging into the cashflow. It also raises the question of why certain establishments insist on such payment methods especially when paid in a way which bypasses both the RICO and Money Laundering legislation the rest of us have to face when paying for goods and services in the States.
Never pay up front.
Never pay up front in travelers cheques
Never pay up front by transfer to a bank in a third country or offshore.
Never pay up front.
Never pay up front to gain a supposed 'discount.'
Never go to a school that claims credit cards can only be used for minor ancillary items like charts.
Every single one of these ploys effectively strips you of basic rights and makes you a prisoner of that school.
If you have problems with the school, it's equipment, accommodation or any other part of the package you are trapped in a foreign country without any effective short term recourse or bargaining tool.
This warning will appear again on certain threads in the future. We make no apologies in forcefully educating wannabes.
Think about this: If the school is any good and it is in an aviation friendly, fine weather part of the world it must have a constant throughput of students. What possible need is there then for large, instant chunks of money surging into the cashflow. It also raises the question of why certain establishments insist on such payment methods especially when paid in a way which bypasses both the RICO and Money Laundering legislation the rest of us have to face when paying for goods and services in the States.
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To pay or not to pay up front
To put it in perspective most flying schools are businesses and the primary point of starting a business is to make money - the service the business provides is usually secondary as most businesses have to report to shareholder(s) who want a return on their investment.
To most businesses cashflow is vital and therefore they like cash upfront because it allows them to plan their business, forecast for the future and pay their overheads - the largest of these (usually) are salaries.
Flying Schools offer pre pay packages to get the money in: for the student there can be many advantages in taking up one of these packages, principally it will be cheaper.
However, there can be disadvantages too, for example if you are not happy with the service you are getting, or you want to go somewhere else (etc), you are in a weak position as they have your money and you will find it difficult to get your cash back.
Obviously if the school goes bust then you will probably never see any of it again - this clearly would not be the case if you paid by the hour.
So you have a choice - either you want to save money or you want the flexibility to be able to go somewhere else if you're not satisfied. (And this goes for all flying schools, not just those in Florida).
Personally, I have a JAA ME CPL and an FAA ME/I. I have been to fly in Florida several times, however not with OBA (yet). I have both paid up front for courses and also paid per hour.
You must make your decision based on your financial circumstances and your desire for flexibility, having read all the advice on here. However be aware that there will be many unforseen extras that crop up and flying usually costs more than you expect - for many reasons. So if you decide to pay up front make sure you have access to extra cash to cover any possibility!!!
To most businesses cashflow is vital and therefore they like cash upfront because it allows them to plan their business, forecast for the future and pay their overheads - the largest of these (usually) are salaries.
Flying Schools offer pre pay packages to get the money in: for the student there can be many advantages in taking up one of these packages, principally it will be cheaper.
However, there can be disadvantages too, for example if you are not happy with the service you are getting, or you want to go somewhere else (etc), you are in a weak position as they have your money and you will find it difficult to get your cash back.
Obviously if the school goes bust then you will probably never see any of it again - this clearly would not be the case if you paid by the hour.
So you have a choice - either you want to save money or you want the flexibility to be able to go somewhere else if you're not satisfied. (And this goes for all flying schools, not just those in Florida).
Personally, I have a JAA ME CPL and an FAA ME/I. I have been to fly in Florida several times, however not with OBA (yet). I have both paid up front for courses and also paid per hour.
You must make your decision based on your financial circumstances and your desire for flexibility, having read all the advice on here. However be aware that there will be many unforseen extras that crop up and flying usually costs more than you expect - for many reasons. So if you decide to pay up front make sure you have access to extra cash to cover any possibility!!!
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Paying up front
The appeal of paying up front is greatest for those for whom money is tight and the "discount" compared with pay as you go looks appealing.
The risks are obvious and the risks of giving foreigners and foreign businesses money up front are multiplied many times over.
The time in business issues needs careful review. There have been many instances where a business has gone bust and the previous owner has bought the assets back off the receiver and set up again under the same name but with a trail of creditors getting nothing. These phoenix businesses rise from the ashes of the old business and quite often go bust and the cycle gets repeated. And why not, going bust is often a good way of starting with a clean sheet no matter who gets hurt.
The need to take money up front is because the business owner and or the bank are not prepared to put enough money in the business in the first place. And why is that - perhaps because they dont want to lose it or their house!
Many FTO don't own their aircraft, they are leased so there is no collateral in them to borrow money with. Likewise any premises are also likely to be rented so no collateral there either.
So you can see that starting a FTO can be a relatively cheap thing to do especially if most of the working capital is provided by the future customers.
This is Ok as long as things are going OK and the business is growing. Once the growth stops or even falls then watch out, the collapse can be quite sudden.
To see this you only have to look at something like the Fairpak hamper scandal that happened here last year. The parent company were robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak and when the time came to meet its obligations it could not.
So my take on paying up front is DONT unless you can afford to lose the money. If you can afford to lose that sort of money, you dont need the discount so dont need to pay up front. The other issue with paying upfront is that even if the FTO is sound, you lose control over your money.
Remember, it is not the price you need to worry about but the cost.
The risks are obvious and the risks of giving foreigners and foreign businesses money up front are multiplied many times over.
The time in business issues needs careful review. There have been many instances where a business has gone bust and the previous owner has bought the assets back off the receiver and set up again under the same name but with a trail of creditors getting nothing. These phoenix businesses rise from the ashes of the old business and quite often go bust and the cycle gets repeated. And why not, going bust is often a good way of starting with a clean sheet no matter who gets hurt.
The need to take money up front is because the business owner and or the bank are not prepared to put enough money in the business in the first place. And why is that - perhaps because they dont want to lose it or their house!
Many FTO don't own their aircraft, they are leased so there is no collateral in them to borrow money with. Likewise any premises are also likely to be rented so no collateral there either.
So you can see that starting a FTO can be a relatively cheap thing to do especially if most of the working capital is provided by the future customers.
This is Ok as long as things are going OK and the business is growing. Once the growth stops or even falls then watch out, the collapse can be quite sudden.
To see this you only have to look at something like the Fairpak hamper scandal that happened here last year. The parent company were robbing Peter to pay Paul so to speak and when the time came to meet its obligations it could not.
So my take on paying up front is DONT unless you can afford to lose the money. If you can afford to lose that sort of money, you dont need the discount so dont need to pay up front. The other issue with paying upfront is that even if the FTO is sound, you lose control over your money.
Remember, it is not the price you need to worry about but the cost.
Blah Blah Blah
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chrisbl
The need to take money up front is because the business owner and or the bank are not prepared to put enough money in the business in the first place.
The need to take money up front is because the business owner and or the bank are not prepared to put enough money in the business in the first place.
If this is the case with OBA, then how do you explain the nice new shiny Liberty fleet?
And you can't harp on about leaseing them as OBA purchased them.
http://www.libertyaircraft.com/airpl...nter/news5.php
If any FTO needs money as bad as chrisbl's sweeping statement i don't think they would be buying 35 new aircraft.
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The reasons for any business requiring payment up front are many and varied - and irrelevent to the point that anyone who pays up front for anything is vulnerable to the failure of that business. That's perhaps neither here nor there when you're buying something for a few quid, but when you're spending several tens of thousands of pounds, you owe it to yourselves to protect that money. After all, could you afford to finance your ATPL training twice?
It doesn't matter how wonderful you think your chosen school is; any business - particularly those which have high recurring costs, such as flying schools - are extremely vulnerable to problems with cash flow. Cash flow is totally dependent on demand, and demand is a variable affected by all sorts of things, most of which are outside the school's control.
There are various ways you can protect your cash, and they've all been discussed before: escrow accounts, paying by credit card, paying at weekly or monthly intervals and so on. All of these methods reduce your exposure to financial risk. The school that asks you to pay up front in return for some kind of discount (and many schools do this) do so to help their cash flow, and you must understand that your risk is much increased by taking this option. You may well be lucky - as are the vast majority of students - but you may not. There is a long and distinguished list of failed flying training schools, some with impeccable reputations right up to the time they closed their doors. In every case, significant numbers of wannabes lost money. Some of them lost their entire training budget having never flown at all. As one of many creditors, and, as a customer, you are at the bottom of the creditor list and you stand little or no chance of ever getting any of your money back. Don't believe me? Ask a lawyer. Or do a search on some of the schools already mentioned that have failed; read the stories of those left high and dry with a £50,000 loan to pay back and no chance of getting another one to pay for the training they didn't get. They are heartbreaking. Years later, there are still those who live in the forlorn hope that they can retrieve something from the mess. They might, but it won't be their cash!
It is up to you whether you wish to take this risk, but you have to understand what the risk is - and understand that's it's real, not theoretical. Sod the schools, look after yourselves first.
Scroggs
It doesn't matter how wonderful you think your chosen school is; any business - particularly those which have high recurring costs, such as flying schools - are extremely vulnerable to problems with cash flow. Cash flow is totally dependent on demand, and demand is a variable affected by all sorts of things, most of which are outside the school's control.
There are various ways you can protect your cash, and they've all been discussed before: escrow accounts, paying by credit card, paying at weekly or monthly intervals and so on. All of these methods reduce your exposure to financial risk. The school that asks you to pay up front in return for some kind of discount (and many schools do this) do so to help their cash flow, and you must understand that your risk is much increased by taking this option. You may well be lucky - as are the vast majority of students - but you may not. There is a long and distinguished list of failed flying training schools, some with impeccable reputations right up to the time they closed their doors. In every case, significant numbers of wannabes lost money. Some of them lost their entire training budget having never flown at all. As one of many creditors, and, as a customer, you are at the bottom of the creditor list and you stand little or no chance of ever getting any of your money back. Don't believe me? Ask a lawyer. Or do a search on some of the schools already mentioned that have failed; read the stories of those left high and dry with a £50,000 loan to pay back and no chance of getting another one to pay for the training they didn't get. They are heartbreaking. Years later, there are still those who live in the forlorn hope that they can retrieve something from the mess. They might, but it won't be their cash!
It is up to you whether you wish to take this risk, but you have to understand what the risk is - and understand that's it's real, not theoretical. Sod the schools, look after yourselves first.
Scroggs
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Glycol said:
"If any FTO needs money as bad as chrisbl's sweeping statement i don't think they would be buying 35 new aircraft."
I was not talking about OBA specifically, but If they are actually buying the aircraft themselves then they will be mortgaged to the person lending the money. I wonder how much equity OBA will actually have in the aircraft.
The Libery website also includes the following financing details:
Flight School Leaseback plans – for Flight Schools and Lessors/Investors
Commercial Flight School Fleet Financing plans
Outright purchase is unlikely - nice bit of spin though
"If any FTO needs money as bad as chrisbl's sweeping statement i don't think they would be buying 35 new aircraft."
I was not talking about OBA specifically, but If they are actually buying the aircraft themselves then they will be mortgaged to the person lending the money. I wonder how much equity OBA will actually have in the aircraft.
The Libery website also includes the following financing details:
Flight School Leaseback plans – for Flight Schools and Lessors/Investors
Commercial Flight School Fleet Financing plans
Outright purchase is unlikely - nice bit of spin though
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Originally Posted by gcolyer
One's conclusion is wrong. Obvioulsy there will be good and bad FTO's just like in any other business. If you feel you need to expose the criticisms and praise for schools then you should also expose the criticism of individuals (not just staff or owners of FTO's). Some people are proffesional complainers and unjustly give a bad rap. The FTO has to suffer the wrath of this whilst PPrune protects those type of individuals. Yet you feel it is ok to expose the praise of individuals (not just staff or owners of FTO's). How fair is this??
Businesses are legitimate subjects for discussion here. Individuals are not. A business must sell itself; it must gain the confidence of its potential customers. It is perfectly reasonable for those potential customers to discuss that business with those who have already used the services of that business. Inevitably, some will have been dissatisfied with the service they received; that's life. After reading - and, where necessary, questioning - their stories, it's up to you to decide whether they were the exception or the rule in the way they were served. If you decide that the individual was wholly or in part responsible for their own problems, you are entitled to conclude that, but it's not acceptable to launch into a flame war to say so! It's even less acceptable (but highly revealing) for a business to make emotional rants about its customers via a bulletin board! Calm, rational explanation will win every time. There have been many examples of both approaches here on Pprune.
Remember, play the ball not the man.
Scroggs
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Just been watching watchdog about a school in Scotland thats folded and slapped a few folk for money, poor sods. It was Flight Academy Scotland flying from Cumbernauld airport. I know its only really for private flying but still backs up the arguement about paying up front.
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DONT PAY UP FRONT!! SIMPLE
Where I am hour building, I have been refused my money back from the place as im unhappy with the state of the aircraft. Fortunatly ive only got a little bit left to 'burn off' before Im out of the sticky situation.
Ive learnt, not as hard as some but ive learnt!!
Cheers,
Expedite
Where I am hour building, I have been refused my money back from the place as im unhappy with the state of the aircraft. Fortunatly ive only got a little bit left to 'burn off' before Im out of the sticky situation.
Ive learnt, not as hard as some but ive learnt!!
Cheers,
Expedite
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Yep, the small discount you get for paying up front isn't worth i. Be clever with your own money. I know of people who have payed upfront and then decide after being clearly advised that there are no refunds, that they want their money back. I'm sorry but you have made a serious f**k up and dont really deserve any back if this is the case. So be careful.
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Granted, it is extraordinarily unusual event (even in this hideous industry) but I know of one guy who paid US$80,000 to his chosen training provider at 4pm one evening.
The school never re-opened.
The school never re-opened.
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Bonding (not -age)
Reading of these tales of woe I feel that, in an industry as strictly regulated as aviation, the regulator has a moral duty to protect students.
Taking the UK as an example, the CAA licence Air Transport Operators under the ATOL bonding scheme where (very generally speaking) any company wishing to operate a commercial air transport operation has to pay a bond into a fund which is then used to repatriate holiday makers if the company goes belly up.
It should not be without the wit of man to have a similar bonding scheme that is part of the licencing / registration process for any company wishing to operate a Flight Training Organisation, be it Private or Professionally orientated, and that bond be sized appropriately to the scale and complexity of the operation, e.g. (and these are figures plucked out of the air) a small flying school with 2 x C-152s that is hardly ever going to have more than a dozen students has a bond of £ 30K whereas a larger FTO with 50 x CPL/IR students has a bond of £ 500,000.
Of course, this places an additional financial burden upon the school but anyone entering into a business venture with genuine intent would include the bond in the business plan they took to the bank.
But more importantly, the prospective student can rest easy in the knowledge that, should the company go bust he or she will get some of their money back, if not all.
Just a thought.
I'll fetch me coat.
2close
Taking the UK as an example, the CAA licence Air Transport Operators under the ATOL bonding scheme where (very generally speaking) any company wishing to operate a commercial air transport operation has to pay a bond into a fund which is then used to repatriate holiday makers if the company goes belly up.
It should not be without the wit of man to have a similar bonding scheme that is part of the licencing / registration process for any company wishing to operate a Flight Training Organisation, be it Private or Professionally orientated, and that bond be sized appropriately to the scale and complexity of the operation, e.g. (and these are figures plucked out of the air) a small flying school with 2 x C-152s that is hardly ever going to have more than a dozen students has a bond of £ 30K whereas a larger FTO with 50 x CPL/IR students has a bond of £ 500,000.
Of course, this places an additional financial burden upon the school but anyone entering into a business venture with genuine intent would include the bond in the business plan they took to the bank.
But more importantly, the prospective student can rest easy in the knowledge that, should the company go bust he or she will get some of their money back, if not all.
Just a thought.
I'll fetch me coat.
2close
