Pilot/OAT pamphlet DO NOT BUY!!!
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Mad Jock has it about right, in my opinion. Oxford is a good school, without a doubt, but it has very large overheads and is thus more expensive than schools with lower costs. Like any aviation-related school, Oxford has to make some hay while the sun shines because income is hard to get when the market goes through the low point of its cycle, as it always does - and, thanks to its airfield, buildings, and high staff levels, Oxford is not well placed to strip out costs when the market turns against it. Add to that the 'brand factor', and you can see how Oxford justifies (and needs) its high charges.
WWW makes an interesting point about the links between advertising and magazines, and one which is probably highly pertinent in the somewhat limited market of aviation training (though, as a long-time 'Car' subscriber, I could argue the facts about Porsche's advertising
).
As w always say, don't believe any marketing hype; do your own research and go for the FTO that best suits your requirements and budget.
Scroggs
WWW makes an interesting point about the links between advertising and magazines, and one which is probably highly pertinent in the somewhat limited market of aviation training (though, as a long-time 'Car' subscriber, I could argue the facts about Porsche's advertising
).As w always say, don't believe any marketing hype; do your own research and go for the FTO that best suits your requirements and budget.
Scroggs
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Scroggs - entirely spot-on with your analysis!
Everyone has made some good points. However in defence of my ‘inversely proportional' statement re: marketing how about these criteria?
1) A company that doesn’t advertise much an relies on referrals and word of mouth
2) A company that gets good results
3) A competitive, but not cut-price, scheme of charges
4) A friendly, customer orientated company
Just a few that I could think of. To meet these criteria the organisation needs to be relatively small to provide a customer-orientated service and because they are small they need to rely on referrals rather than marketing extremes. They have relatively low overheads too, so they can afford to ride out the lean-cycles too,
Now there are more than a few of these around. I like to think I am associated with a company along similar values. However, rather than mention the organisation I work for let me mention a company that has these values that I have absolutely no association with at all and have never met anyone involved with the said company and that is Professional Air Training at Hurn. But needless-to-say there others like them out there – wannabees need to look at FTO’s like these rather than the over hyped big pilot-factories to enjoy their training experience and get value for money.
Happy hunting everyone!
Everyone has made some good points. However in defence of my ‘inversely proportional' statement re: marketing how about these criteria?
1) A company that doesn’t advertise much an relies on referrals and word of mouth
2) A company that gets good results
3) A competitive, but not cut-price, scheme of charges
4) A friendly, customer orientated company
Just a few that I could think of. To meet these criteria the organisation needs to be relatively small to provide a customer-orientated service and because they are small they need to rely on referrals rather than marketing extremes. They have relatively low overheads too, so they can afford to ride out the lean-cycles too,
Now there are more than a few of these around. I like to think I am associated with a company along similar values. However, rather than mention the organisation I work for let me mention a company that has these values that I have absolutely no association with at all and have never met anyone involved with the said company and that is Professional Air Training at Hurn. But needless-to-say there others like them out there – wannabees need to look at FTO’s like these rather than the over hyped big pilot-factories to enjoy their training experience and get value for money.
Happy hunting everyone!
Last edited by porridge; 7th Dec 2005 at 21:13.
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Interesting thread, that page in pilot mag has been full of bulls-hit from day one and not just in OATS favor. Agree with Scroggs and Madjock.
WWW
How can you be a REAL airline pilot and drive a boxter!
WWW
How can you be a REAL airline pilot and drive a boxter!
Not many cars claim to be a better sportscar than a Boxster S..
My experience is this. I did my CPL and various ratings and Multi and IR at a variety of schools. They were all small having no more than half a dozen aircraft and they were based in scruffy buildings which each contained a very scruffy kitchen with boasting a 1970's stained steel kettle for communal use.
I then went on to be a flying instructor at such a school.
I then went on to be a flying instructor at a big shiny prestigious school having dozens of aircraft based in a marble floored air conditioned purpose built building containing dozens of computers and a collection of well stocked vending machines.
And do you know what?
Straight and Level 1 is the same lesson conducted in the same way at both types of school.
So are Medium Level Turns and Circuits. So is VFR Nav 1 & 2, and Stalling 1, 2 & 3. The radios work the same and the checklists are identical. Principals of aerodynamics remain unchanged and the examiner at the end of the training is the same for each type of school. The license issued is the same colour from the same building regardless of whether you paid £40k or £60k.
If I had a son and if he wanted to be a pilot and if the repeated beatings had not dissuaded him then I would NOT contemplate using a large FTO based on my insight into the business. Its not worth the premium and its not even the best training available.
I think the most distinct difference between small and large FTO's is that you are one of 9 students in the former and one of 95 in the latter. You have far more power and influence in the smaller FTO. Time and again large FTO's are accused of being sausage machines, of having terrible management and being poor at communicating. It seems a universal constant at large FTO's.
Go and look at the large players but MAKE SURE you also go and look at a few smaller schools. Start at an airfield near you. There are some real gems out there and they can save you money.
Cheers
WWW
My experience is this. I did my CPL and various ratings and Multi and IR at a variety of schools. They were all small having no more than half a dozen aircraft and they were based in scruffy buildings which each contained a very scruffy kitchen with boasting a 1970's stained steel kettle for communal use.
I then went on to be a flying instructor at such a school.
I then went on to be a flying instructor at a big shiny prestigious school having dozens of aircraft based in a marble floored air conditioned purpose built building containing dozens of computers and a collection of well stocked vending machines.
And do you know what?
Straight and Level 1 is the same lesson conducted in the same way at both types of school.
So are Medium Level Turns and Circuits. So is VFR Nav 1 & 2, and Stalling 1, 2 & 3. The radios work the same and the checklists are identical. Principals of aerodynamics remain unchanged and the examiner at the end of the training is the same for each type of school. The license issued is the same colour from the same building regardless of whether you paid £40k or £60k.
If I had a son and if he wanted to be a pilot and if the repeated beatings had not dissuaded him then I would NOT contemplate using a large FTO based on my insight into the business. Its not worth the premium and its not even the best training available.
I think the most distinct difference between small and large FTO's is that you are one of 9 students in the former and one of 95 in the latter. You have far more power and influence in the smaller FTO. Time and again large FTO's are accused of being sausage machines, of having terrible management and being poor at communicating. It seems a universal constant at large FTO's.
Go and look at the large players but MAKE SURE you also go and look at a few smaller schools. Start at an airfield near you. There are some real gems out there and they can save you money.
Cheers
WWW
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Don't worry HWD, when you look at where Pilotowl's from, it all becomes clear.
(For non-UK readers, the Forest of Dean is where 'Deliverence' would have been set, had it been filmed in England).
(For non-UK readers, the Forest of Dean is where 'Deliverence' would have been set, had it been filmed in England).
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The boxster S is required by jet pilots so they at least get to do something fun with a machine in manual going to and from work. 
Turboprop drivers have way to much fun as it is without having to resort to mechanical aids for self-gratification.
Volvo T5 turbo is the way forward and it has the advantage you can stick a ton of crap in the back with a trailer hooked up and has room for 3 folk in the back and still get nicked for speeding.
BTW If i had my time again I proberly would be seriously tempted by the waypoint modular course. I am not anti oxford in anyway just well anti people paying way over the odds with any of the providers for intergrated.
MJ
Turboprop drivers have way to much fun as it is without having to resort to mechanical aids for self-gratification.
Volvo T5 turbo is the way forward and it has the advantage you can stick a ton of crap in the back with a trailer hooked up and has room for 3 folk in the back and still get nicked for speeding.
BTW If i had my time again I proberly would be seriously tempted by the waypoint modular course. I am not anti oxford in anyway just well anti people paying way over the odds with any of the providers for intergrated.
MJ
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Twitching
TWIT-TWOO !!
San Anoraque are you a secret twitcher?
http://www.fweb.org.uk/dean/
WWW - been on the same path and I have little debt! RX7 RS though(AND ONLY 6K)
. I'm into performance not posing! However, Maxpower did say the RX7 is the original Knicker Drencher!!
TWIT-TWOO!!!!
San Anoraque are you a secret twitcher?
http://www.fweb.org.uk/dean/
WWW - been on the same path and I have little debt! RX7 RS though(AND ONLY 6K)
. I'm into performance not posing! However, Maxpower did say the RX7 is the original Knicker Drencher!!TWIT-TWOO!!!!
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WWW,
You say "If I had a son and if he wanted to be a pilot and if the repeated beatings had not dissuaded him then I would NOT contemplate using a large FTO based on my insight into the business. Its not worth the premium and its not even the best training available."
I worry because the more I browse the websites of prospective employers, the more I see "X airline selects candidates from this school"... I want to go to a small school as well but am worried that I won't get a look in now because I didn't mortgage my body to pay for a big branded school. So far I haev my PPL with Night Rating, from a combination of EFG at Biggin Hill, Multiflight at Leeds Bradford and OBA in Florida! You reckon it's a cause for concern?
Horgy
You say "If I had a son and if he wanted to be a pilot and if the repeated beatings had not dissuaded him then I would NOT contemplate using a large FTO based on my insight into the business. Its not worth the premium and its not even the best training available."
I worry because the more I browse the websites of prospective employers, the more I see "X airline selects candidates from this school"... I want to go to a small school as well but am worried that I won't get a look in now because I didn't mortgage my body to pay for a big branded school. So far I haev my PPL with Night Rating, from a combination of EFG at Biggin Hill, Multiflight at Leeds Bradford and OBA in Florida! You reckon it's a cause for concern?
Horgy
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No cause for concern.
Despite what the OAT marketeers would have you believe, the majority of junior airline FOs do NOT come from the premium ab-initio programmes which are so heavily advertised.
Get your qualifications, stay focused, and you'll get a job. Modular or not.
Despite what the OAT marketeers would have you believe, the majority of junior airline FOs do NOT come from the premium ab-initio programmes which are so heavily advertised.
Get your qualifications, stay focused, and you'll get a job. Modular or not.
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Mad_Jock, you been looking in my garage? 1 x Volvo V70 T5, present and correct. 155 mph, faster than an F348 from 50-70 and I get to take the kids along too. And I can still hear the music without deafening myself or them!
Scroggs
Scroggs
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TWIT-TWOO!!
MrHorgy,
As our American cousins would say "Do the math" (anoying I know).
There are loads of airlines in the UK, all at different ages ie. BA v Ryan air etc. There have to be at least 30,000 pilots in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong). It would be a physical impossibility for all of these to have gone to the big 4. I think BA use to sponsor about 20ish pilots a year. So where do the rest come from? RAF yes but the rest come from the independent FTO's . In the Co I'm with you can count on one hand the amount pilots that have done the big 4 all the way through. Most have taken the best parts ie. PPL ME IR CPL of different schools (either due to price or flexibility (time/availability)). The only comment I've heard about moving schools was about the IR. It's a high pressure course and it does look bad if you've moved schools half way through. It starts the recruitment people thinking that may be you can't handle the pressure/ personality problems etc. They don't want to see someone jacking in a Type rating course because of these reasons.
So overall - stop worrying!!
Look at all the different FTO's but my advice would be try to find one near where you live. You can save alot of money this way and get a little job in Tesco's at the weekend. You'll also have alot of support from family and friends (free beer!). Plus you'll get a break away from the airfield - trust me you'll need it on the IR.
If you need any help or want to know which schools I frequented just PM me.
TWIT-TWOO!!
ps. Don't buy PILOAT - before we all digress!!!
MrHorgy,
As our American cousins would say "Do the math" (anoying I know).
There are loads of airlines in the UK, all at different ages ie. BA v Ryan air etc. There have to be at least 30,000 pilots in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong). It would be a physical impossibility for all of these to have gone to the big 4. I think BA use to sponsor about 20ish pilots a year. So where do the rest come from? RAF yes but the rest come from the independent FTO's . In the Co I'm with you can count on one hand the amount pilots that have done the big 4 all the way through. Most have taken the best parts ie. PPL ME IR CPL of different schools (either due to price or flexibility (time/availability)). The only comment I've heard about moving schools was about the IR. It's a high pressure course and it does look bad if you've moved schools half way through. It starts the recruitment people thinking that may be you can't handle the pressure/ personality problems etc. They don't want to see someone jacking in a Type rating course because of these reasons.
So overall - stop worrying!!
Look at all the different FTO's but my advice would be try to find one near where you live. You can save alot of money this way and get a little job in Tesco's at the weekend. You'll also have alot of support from family and friends (free beer!). Plus you'll get a break away from the airfield - trust me you'll need it on the IR.
If you need any help or want to know which schools I frequented just PM me.
TWIT-TWOO!!
ps. Don't buy PILOAT - before we all digress!!!
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Pilotowl,
According to the CAA stats, there are 12,000 ATPLs, 3700 CPLs and , so say 14,000 airline pilots..ish? Out of those, say 3000 aren't working for one reason or another, so say 11,000 pilots in total. Almost pure guesswork, but possibly not far off. Must admit, I thought there were more, but there you go.
BA has 232 aircraft. I would guess at an average of 6 crews per aircraft which is 1392 pilots. Extending the 2.5% rate who reached age 55 this year (from the CAA stats) and assuming a static growth then that is a requirement of about 40 pilots per year.
BMI has 41 aircraft. Assume avg 5 crews per aircraft, 205 pilots, 5 retire each year...at a guess.
OAT supplied 35 to BA and 5 to BMI this year. I can't be arsed looking up the rest, but I think there is sufficient to suspect that OAT have cornered a reasonable chunk of the market.
According to the CAA stats, there are 12,000 ATPLs, 3700 CPLs and , so say 14,000 airline pilots..ish? Out of those, say 3000 aren't working for one reason or another, so say 11,000 pilots in total. Almost pure guesswork, but possibly not far off. Must admit, I thought there were more, but there you go.
BA has 232 aircraft. I would guess at an average of 6 crews per aircraft which is 1392 pilots. Extending the 2.5% rate who reached age 55 this year (from the CAA stats) and assuming a static growth then that is a requirement of about 40 pilots per year.
BMI has 41 aircraft. Assume avg 5 crews per aircraft, 205 pilots, 5 retire each year...at a guess.
OAT supplied 35 to BA and 5 to BMI this year. I can't be arsed looking up the rest, but I think there is sufficient to suspect that OAT have cornered a reasonable chunk of the market.
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I think your numbers are more than slightly out! BA's pilot strength is around 3000. A great many more than just those who reach 55 leave each year, for a variety of reasons; their declared pilot requirement for 2005 was (IIRC) about 140. BMI has around 600-700 pilots, who (like most UK airlines) retire - or at least leave the LHS - at 60. I'm not aware how many they need this year, but I'd guess 50+. Virgin have 650 pilots; our requirement for 2005/6/7 is around 80 per year (though we are expanding).
OAT's share of the market is significant, but is far from being a majority supplier!
Scroggs
OAT's share of the market is significant, but is far from being a majority supplier!
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
You didn't spot the deliberate mistake then? Maybe once I get a type rating I'll realise that a crew size should = at least 2
300 pilots for BMI now looks very low! Should be more like 400. In fact if six crews keep an aircraft operating for 12 hrs/day then nigh on 500.
That would more than 3000 pilots for BA too, assuming 7-8 crews/aircraft.
My basic point is that OAT do supply many fresh pilots - even if my on the hoof quess was trebled!
P.S. I'm really not this dull at parties you know
You didn't spot the deliberate mistake then? Maybe once I get a type rating I'll realise that a crew size should = at least 2
300 pilots for BMI now looks very low! Should be more like 400. In fact if six crews keep an aircraft operating for 12 hrs/day then nigh on 500.
That would more than 3000 pilots for BA too, assuming 7-8 crews/aircraft.
My basic point is that OAT do supply many fresh pilots - even if my on the hoof quess was trebled!
P.S. I'm really not this dull at parties you know
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 9th Dec 2005 at 08:31.
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Don't worry HWD, when you look at where Pilotowl's from, it all becomes clear. (For non-UK readers, the Forest of Dean is where 'Deliverence' would have been set, had it been filmed in England).
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TWIT-TWOO!!
A quick post I'm off to do some night shootin'!!
1 Sorry Sans - no meant to steaal but what about thes- "Todayspiloat" !!
2 Craggenmore - too attractive for the Royal Forest - he has 4 fingers we have at least six!! for the banjo!!
TWIT-TWOO!!
p.s Don't buy Piloat. Todayspiloat and definately don't go to OAT!!
TWIT-TWOO!!
A real quicky before Mrs Pilotowl does shoot me.
We are on a 4 strip rating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TWIT-TWOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A quick post I'm off to do some night shootin'!!
1 Sorry Sans - no meant to steaal but what about thes- "Todayspiloat" !!
2 Craggenmore - too attractive for the Royal Forest - he has 4 fingers we have at least six!! for the banjo!!
TWIT-TWOO!!
p.s Don't buy Piloat. Todayspiloat and definately don't go to OAT!!
TWIT-TWOO!!
A real quicky before Mrs Pilotowl does shoot me.
We are on a 4 strip rating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TWIT-TWOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Pilotowl
What have you got against OAT? Why do you say that we shouldnt go there?
FL370 Officeboy
Do you know that for a fact? Not trying to say your wrong but id like to know how you know that.
If that were the case, then the numbers quoted on the website seem very low. OAT puts through 200 grads a year on the APP. Each of them is put forward to 2 airlines only (As I understand it), that meaning that the figures quoted on the OAT website should be near the 400mark!
As you know, that isnt the case, so thats why I think the numbers on the website, are for actual job offers, not graduates put forward for selection.
Correct me if Im wrong, but thats the way I thought it worked
What have you got against OAT? Why do you say that we shouldnt go there?
FL370 Officeboy
Do you know that for a fact? Not trying to say your wrong but id like to know how you know that.
If that were the case, then the numbers quoted on the website seem very low. OAT puts through 200 grads a year on the APP. Each of them is put forward to 2 airlines only (As I understand it), that meaning that the figures quoted on the OAT website should be near the 400mark!
As you know, that isnt the case, so thats why I think the numbers on the website, are for actual job offers, not graduates put forward for selection.
Correct me if Im wrong, but thats the way I thought it worked